What's your religion?

[Streetwise]

Oh your asking if I understand your reply.

It's fine to wonder but unfortunately messianic Judaism has been used to convert Jews into more christian line of thought and while that well and good to invite people to join a religion system that works for you and others the sad fact is Messianic Judaism takes our holy words and our traditions and twists them to serve a narrative they were never meant to serve for us.

Due to this historical context I did get defensive your are correct but you "wonder" didn't seem of pure motive I could similarly "wonder" if all the christians in this thread who don't believe strongly in a higher power might be Jewish because the lack of distinct separate states of G-d and Jesus could show that there is only one true G-d. But I won't not only because I don't thank that is a good use of my time and I think people should worship how they may but also because Judaism is against proselytizing and let's people convert because they want not because somebody else told them they should.

I think that the holidays that I have celebrated and the torah I have read out of are wonderful and I glad others think so as well. Messianic Judaism came about in around the 70s out of evangelical christianity they themselves having a pertictual fascination with Judaism. People have used our religion as a pawn for other movements and I am allowed not like that. I am aware of who started this thread and I aware of who populates it so I was hesitant to post however I expected it to be pretty civil as most things here are.

It would be rude for me to say "I wonder if you are on the path to Islam" or "I wonder if you are on the path to Catholicism" as that implies you are currently on the wrong path and heading towards something different. I made it very clear in my post most more than once that that my relationship with G-d (or adonai or hashem) is between me and Him and nobody else. There is no messianic stage it not an inevitability or a process it's just different religions.

We can see the similarities between us without making one right or even saying another place might be a better fit. If it is I will find that on my own as will all of us on our lifelong faith journey.

I apologise for the long post

Respectfully
and sincerely ,
Petal


Edited for typos

It wasn't clear to me that you were still a Talmudic believer just to be clear there were Jews who were messianic in the 1890s

 

[Greatshield17]

I wouldn't say that within earshot of the Vatican.

We Catholics are already aware of this, we actually view Marxism as a kind of AntiChristianity. (In the sense of Antichrist)

 

[Greatshield17]

Oh your asking if I understand your reply.

It's fine to wonder but unfortunately messianic Judaism has been used to convert Jews into more christian line of thought and while that well and good to invite people to join a religion system that works for you and others the sad fact is Messianic Judaism takes our holy words and our traditions and twists them to serve a narrative they were never meant to serve for us.

Due to this historical context I did get defensive your are correct but you "wonder" didn't seem of pure motive I could similarly "wonder" if all the christians in this thread who don't believe strongly in a higher power might be Jewish because the lack of distinct separate states of G-d and Jesus could show that there is only one true G-d. But I won't not only because I don't thank that is a good use of my time and I think people should worship how they may but also because Judaism is against proselytizing and let's people convert because they want not because somebody else told them they should.

I think that the holidays that I have celebrated and the torah I have read out of are wonderful and I glad others think so as well. Messianic Judaism came about in around the 70s out of evangelical christianity they themselves having a pertictual fascination with Judaism. People have used our religion as a pawn for other movements and I am allowed not like that. I am aware of who started this thread and I aware of who populates it so I was hesitant to post however I expected it to be pretty civil as most things here are.

It would be rude for me to say "I wonder if you are on the path to Islam" or "I wonder if you are on the path to Catholicism" as that implies you are currently on the wrong path and heading towards something different. I made it very clear in my post most more than once that that my relationship with G-d (or adonai or hashem) is between me and Him and nobody else. There is no messianic stage it not an inevitability or a process it's just different religions.

We can see the similarities between us without making one right or even saying another place might be a better fit. If it is I will find that on my own as will all of us on our lifelong faith journey.

I apologise for the long post

Respectfully
and sincerely ,
Petal


Edited for typos

In @PastelPetals defense, she is right that Messianic Judaism was invented by Evangelical Christians as a "have your cake and eat it too" compromise between "stubborn" Jews who refused to become Christian and the Evangelical belief in the imminent need to Christianize the Jews before Jesus showed up. It was basically a "splitting the baby" halfway point-Jews could maintain their customs and laws while worshipping Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Despite Messianism being illegal in Israel, there is a tiny underground practicing it in secret.

It’s worth noting that Catholicism does share some of its Oral Tradition with the Jews, such as the belief that the God of Abraham appeared to all the nations of the earth, before finally appearing to Abraham and later the Israelites to make a Covenant with them. I once heard a fellow-Catholic say, that she believes the Pagans’ belief in a mother goddess, was a combination of their memory of Eve, and their expectation of the coming of the Mother of the Redeemer.

 

[PastelPetals]

It wasn't clear to me that you were still a Talmudic believer just to be clear there were Jews who were messianic in the 1890s

What I believe is irrelevant. The point I was making is you have no place to try to sway my opinion on a topic like this unprovoked.

And yes there have been some messianic jews for quite some time but were considered small fringe groups. Messianic Jews that exist today came from evangelical christianity.

I honestly would not like to engage further on the topic if your outlook says to evangelize to known Jews up to some imaginary line such a the Talmud. Everyone else in this thread has been respected by default. Maybe some asked questions about their ideas but never about if their faith is valid at all or the right one for them (except maybe @oragano but he made his religion himself so that might be a tad different but nobody ever told him he should change it either) I deserve the respect that everyone else in this thread gets for my belief system simple as that.

People have been intrusive, mean, uncaring, disrespectful to me due to being Jewish my whole life. I assumed this place would be kind as it always is. Many autistics know how stabilizing a faith system can be and are often respectful of it. However I understand we are not a monolith and I should not have assumed.

Thank you to those who have been kind and reached out.

 

[Judge]

We Catholics are already aware of this, we actually view Marxism as a kind of AntiChristianity. (In the sense of Antichrist)

Profoundly.

But then anyone advocating the potential abolition of private property would have roiled the Vatican. An entity which for centuries constituted the most influential property owner on the planet.

Not to mention the relationship of the Vatican with personalities like Mussolini, Pinochet and the postwar CIA. Most definitely not a friend of Karl Marx on any level.

 

[PastelPetals]

It’s worth noting that Catholicism does share some of its Oral Tradition with the Jews, such as the belief that the God of Abraham appeared to all the nations of the earth, before finally appearing to Abraham and later the Israelites to make a Covenant with them. I once heard a fellow-Catholic say, that she believes the Pagans’ belief in a mother goddess, was a combination of their memory of Eve, and their expectation of the coming of the Mother of the Redeemer.

Well yes of course most christians use both the new testament and the old testament (our torah but with a different translation.) Judaism,Christianity, and Islam are all abrahamic religions my point was to say that we should appreciate our similarities and celebrate our differences without the need to make anyone wrong or tell them they are believing the wrong way. We all have tons in common!!

 

[Streetwise]

What I believe is irrelevant

I thought if you were believing in one religion that made it relevant I don't understand how I was unkind?

 

[Raggamuffin]

I'm curious, what does this mean?

@Misery Here's a brief passage from the first book. It had me hooked from the start.

"You have heard of ghost hunters. I can quite literally be called a ghost writer, though I do not approve of the term "ghost." It is true that I am usually not seen in physical terms. I do not like the word "spirit," either; and yet if your definition of that word implies the idea of a personality without a physical body, then I would have to agree that the description fits me.

I address an unseen audience. However, I know that my readers exist, and therefore I shall ask each of them, now, to grant me the same Privilege.

I write this book through the auspices of a woman of whom I have become quite fond. To others it seems strange that I address her as "Ruburt," and "him," but the fact is that I have known her in other times and places, by other names. She has been both a man and a woman, and the entire identity who has lived these separate lives can be designated by the name of Ruburt.

Names are not important, however. My name is Seth. Names are simply designations, symbols; and yet since you must use them, I shall also. I write this book with the cooperation of Ruburt, who speaks the words for me. In this life Ruburt is called Jane, and her husband, Robert Butts, takes down the words that Jane speaks. I call him Joseph.

My readers may suppose that they are physical creatures, bound within physical bodies, imprisoned within bone, flesh, and skin. If you believe that your existence is dependent upon this corporeal image, then you feel in danger of extinction, for no physical form lasts, and no body, however beautiful in youth, retains the same vigor and enchantment in old age. If you identify with your own youth, or beauty, or intel-lect, or accomplishments, then there is the constant gnawing knowledge that these attributes can and will vanish.

I am writing this book to assure you that this is not the case. Basically you are no more of a physical being than I am, and I have donned and discarded more bodies than I care to tell. Personalities who do not exist do not write books. I am quite independent of a physical image, and so are you.

Consciousness creates form. It is not the other way around. All personalities are not physical. It is only because you are so busily concerned with daily matters that you do not realize that there is a portion of you who knows that its own powers are far superior to those shown by the ordinary self.

You have each lived other existences, and that knowledge is within you though you are not consciously aware of it. I hope that this book will serve to release the deeply intuitive self within each of my readers, and to bring to the foreground of consciousness whatever particular insights will serve you most.

...

If you believe firmly that your consciousness is locked up somewhere inside your skull and is powerless to escape it, if you feel that your consciousness ends at the boundary of your body, then you sell yourself short, and you will think that I am a delusion. I am no more a delusion than you are, and that may be a loaded sentence.

I can say this to each of my readers honestly: I am older than you are, at least in terms of age as you think of it.

If a writer can qualify as any kind of authority on the basis of age, therefore, then I should get a medal. I am an energy personality essence, no longer focused in physical matter. As such, I am aware of some truths that many of you seem to have forgotten.

I hope to remind you of these. I do not speak so much to the part of you that you think of as yourself as to that part of you that you do not know, that you have to some extent denied and to some extent forgotten. That part of you reads this book, [even] as "you" read it.

I speak to those who believe in a god, and those who do not, to those who believe that science will find all answers as to the nature of reality, and to those who do not. I hope to give you clues that will enable you to study the nature of reality for yourself as you have never studied it before.

There are several things that I shall ask you to understand. You are not stuck in time like a fly in a closed bottle, whose wings are therefore useless. You cannot trust your physical senses to give you a true picture of reality. They are lovely liars, with such a fantastic tale to tell that you believe it without question. You are sometimes wiser, more creative, and far more knowledgeable when you are dreaming than when you are awake.

These statements may seem highly dubious to you now, but when we are finished I hope that you will see that they are plain statements of fact.

...

The fact is that each of you create your own physical reality; and en masse, you create both the glories and the terrors that exist within your earthly experience. Until you realize that you are the creators, you will refuse to accept this responsibility. Nor can you blame a devil for the world's misfortunes. You have grown sophisticated enough to realize that the Devil is a projection of your own psyche, but you have not grown wise enough to learn how to use your creativity constructively.

Most of my readers are familiar with the term, "muscle bound." As a species you have grown "ego bound" instead, held in a spiritual rigidity, with the intuitive portions of the self either denied or distorted beyond any recognition.

...

The self that you know is but one fragment of your entire identity. These fragment selves are not strung together, however, like beads of a string. They are more like the various skins of an onion, or segments of an orange, all connected through the one vitality and growing out into various realities while springing from the same source.

I am not comparing personality to an orange or an onion, but I want to emphasize that as these things grow from within outward, so does each fragment of the entire self. You observe the outside aspect of objects. Your physical senses permit you to perceive the exterior forms to which you then react, but your physical senses to some extent force you to perceive reality in this manner, and the inside vitality within matter and form is not so apparent.

I can tell you, for example, that there is consciousness even within a nail, but few of my readers will take me seriously enough to stop in midsentence, and say good morning or good afternoon to the nearest nail they can find, stuck in a piece of wood.

Nevertheless, the atoms and molecules within the nail do possess their own kind of consciousness. The atoms and molecules that make up the pages of this book are also, within their own level, aware. Nothing exists - neither rock, mineral, plant, animal, or air - that is not filled with consciousness of its own kind. So you stand amid a constant vital commotion, a gestalt of aware energy, and you are yourselves physically composed of conscious cells that carry within themselves the realization of their own identity, that cooperate willingly to form the corporeal structure that is your physical body.

I am saying, of course, that there is no such thing as dead matter. There is no object that was not formed by consciousness, and each consciousness, regardless of its degree, rejoices in sensation and creativity. You cannot understand what you are unless you understand such matters.

For convenience's sake, you close out the multitudinous inner communications that leap between the tiniest parts of your flesh, yet even as physical creatures, you are to some extent a portion of other consciousnesses. There are no limitations to the self. There are no limitations to its potentials. You can adopt artificial limitations through your own ignorance, however. You can identify, for example, with your outer ego alone, and cut yourself off from abilities that are a part of you. You can deny, but you cannot change, the facts. The personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more.

I do not mean to underestimate the outer ego. You have simply overestimated it. Nor has its true nature been recognized. "

There's a free PDF link I'll PM you it.

Ed

 

[PastelPetals]

I thought if you were believing in one religion that made it relevant I don't understand how I was unkind?

Judaism and Messianic Judaism are different I understand the similarities between the names and some of the practices can be confusing. We are not talking about the same thing and I think that's where the confusion lies. I found it disrespectful that they implied that I might be heading towards a different religion you may think of them as the same but they are not. (this was written in previous posts) I also noted that this hit a sore spot due to the history of the movement (also written in previous posts) I am guessing you didn't mean harm by any of your posts but when I said that I was not comfortable with it you said that you "didn't know if you had known I also considered the Talmud in my religion" but my point was it was not what I believe or what you believe it's just not considered respectful to try to tell somebody they would fit better in another religion. If you thought our religions were the same I understand the confusion but they are not. Again I understand your confusion.

Also if what I am saying is not clear I am sorry about that I am a bit tired.

Basically what i'm saying is I just want to be left to my faith alone and I am sorry for posting I didn't mean to cause a mess.

 

[Raggamuffin]

The world would be a lot happier if people could just agree to disagree.

"I believe in this, but you don't - and that's fine."

Oh, if only that could've been man's history with religion.

Ed

 

[oregano]

@Raggamuffin, I am generally skeptical of what are known as "channeled" writings-texts obtained via a spirit working through a human as mouthpiece. Not because I dismiss the notion of spirits. Because often the source for such writings is of such unknown identity that the potential is there for spirits of evil and/or deceptive intentions to lead humen astray with, well, deceptive writings. Then there is the possibility of schizophrenia and other psychotic illness in the "channel", in which case the "source" is actually the subconscious of the channel manifesting through a disembodied voice claiming to be an external spirit source. A lot of times this is mistaken as "clairaudient" (clairvoyance except via hearing) in the New Age and Occult milieus. I have heard of Seth before-the daughter of Anton LaVey heads a group of Seth worshippers.

 

[oregano]

The world would be a lot happier if people could just agree to disagree.

"I believe in this, but you don't - and that's fine."

Oh, if only that could've been man's history with religion.

Ed

Sadly, the very concept of "agree to disagree" only emerged in the "Enlightenment" of 17th century England. Before then it was "whoever wins the war gets to pick the god". This is still the dominant view in Islam-your mouth either recites the Shehada (Muslim statement of faith) or it is removed along with the rest of your head from your body. A notable case is the Greek Orthodox saint Eugene of Trebizonde-he lost in battle to the Muslim conquerors and was ordered to convert at swordpoint. He refused, and was beheaded. The cult of Eugene of Trebizonde survives to this day. There is an order of knights dedicated to his memory. They are VERY selective in who they allow in.

I think the problem on this thread is an issue of miscommunication-sadly something auties excel at.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I actually went to a meeting a few times, the group was I forget what they were called, but they embraced both christian doctrine and also celebrated a Jewish heritage. They were nice. They had these ibex(?) Horns that they blew on to start their services
( saturday) they used a christian bible, with English on one column and Hebrew on the one beside it. Great food, all kosher yum yums.

I still like New Thought mostly, it's a very accepting and affirming community. There is a broad streak of Christians In the movement, but they are not too preachy. I don't mind the jesus ppl mostly, plus they have a great culture, and some decent values. To me the church of [whatever] is the hub of the wheel. The spinning wheel is civilization itself, so I admire xians in lots of ways, and have xian friends too, it's about building bridges, not walls.

Curious about this one, please don't spank me, I am mostly Luddite, and auld kine. The modern ways are still a challenge to me.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I have heard of Seth before-the daughter of Anton LaVey heads a group of Seth worshippers.

Sorry to double post I couldn't mush it all into one. Is the Seth from modern literature then regarded as a Diety? Or are you thinking of Seth like the Elder S from Egypt? Demotic is a really quirky language. Alot of old tongue is demotic based.
Did LeVay have a kid? Can you pretty please provide some links to source info on that?

So is Seth like Abraham/Hicks? A supposedly channeled entity? The basis of a set of books? Did anyone read " conversations with god" by n.d. Walsh? Is that similar issue, or different I wonder?

 

[Raggamuffin]

Seth shouldn't be considered a deity. If there's people who worship him, then they're misguided. In the books he refers to himself as primarily a teacher. But there is no mention or request to revere him in any kind of godly way. In fact he dismisses the notion of a god entirely, but does mention a system in place that humans have personified into a god in various religions.

As for the possibility of a channelled voice being that of a sinister spirit or because the medium has a mental illness - I'm sure that case could be argued about numerous religions.

Take any story from the bible where God spoke to a man. Now have that man live in modern society and try to preach what happened - when God spoke to him. Would he not be branded as possessed or schizophrenic too?

Again, it boils down to whether or not what you read strikes a chord with you, and if it gives you a calming or hopeful feeling.

Still, I disagree with those who feel a need to follow or worship Seth. The books are to be used as educational devices to help empower the self and better society. Not to form some sort of cult that worships Seth.

Ed

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I like abraham/ hicks sometimes. She made a whole grip of money doing a lecture circuit. It's a bit too spooky though. I met a lady who went to her talk, she said it was obviously a different persona. That entity, called abraham, claims to be a teacher as well, but I think is in favor of theism.

I think xians are against abraham/hicks on principle, so there might be a doctrine issue with Seth as well. The protestants don't really use the words heresy or blasphemy much, but some of the fundies believe in evil spirits having an influence on a human.

 

[Greatshield17]

Profoundly.

But then anyone advocating the potential abolition of private property would have roiled the Vatican. An entity which for centuries constituted the most influential property owner on the planet.

There a lot of issues with Marxism that make it incompatible with the Catholic Faith; for example, my own biggest issue with Marxism is that it’s completely materialistic, for Marx, everything is about economics, he even held a non-Darwinian evolutionary view that claimed that human beings didn’t evolve through genetic mutations nor highly-developed brains, but the invention of tools and development of economics through the exchange of tools and material goods. My personal belief about human society, is that it has a hierarchy of aspects, with Cultus or Religion at the top, and economics at the bottom; Marxism is an inversion of that hierarchy, Marxism, as shocking as this may sound, is the serving of Mammon rather than God. Not that most forms of Capitalism aren’t another form adoring Mammon, don’t get me wrong; in fact, one of the biggest weakness among conservatives and right-wingers, is their tendency to focus on Capitalism and make the case that Capitalism is a superior economic system to Socialism or Communism. What conservatives and the right fail to see by doing that, is that they’re actually playing on the Marxists on terms, because again, everything is about economics for Marx and his followers, and the conservatives and right-wingers are conforming to and reinforcing that belief, by defending Capitalism.

Not to mention the relationship of the Vatican with personalities like Mussolini…

Yeah the Lateran Treaty while better than nothing, wasn’t the best thing for the Pope signs. Not just because of who Mussolini was, and whom he allied with, but also because I personally believe, that Mussolini was probably the logical outcome of Italian Unification; Italian Unification being the conquest and destruction of the diverse nations of Italy, (including Sicily which, in my opinion, may have been the most culturally-rich nation in all of Medieval Europe) all in the name of Italian identity. But I’m digressing here.

 

[tree]

REMINDER:
Any further replies to this thread should
address the topic, which is "What's your religion?"

No need for drawn out histories or theoretical suppositions.

 

[Alexej]

I am Messianic Jewish. How about you?

@Yeshuasdaughter
Im just wondering about the image. I recognise the tzittzit of the corner tassel. I thought it was the males who were enjoined to wear this. However, I may well be mistaken, please enlighten me

 

[Gift2humanity]

While I believe there is obviously a divine creator, I do not follow any religion.
I guess I am a scientific person, this does not mean I am sceptical of spirituality I just like to see our sense and bridge between science and spirituality and in my experience the little I know of Hinduism does provide that “bridge“ for me.