People don't believe or appreciate honesty

[inkfingers]

I generally say things that I consider to be compliments or just plain facts, but other people take them as insults, or don't know what to think. I try to be honest all the time, because lying is a sin, and I feel like people should always know the truth. If you don't know the truth, then you'll go around living in the dark, maybe believing something that's false.

 

[Bronzelincolns]

seems like the people you're dealing with don't take you seriously at all.

 

[55853]

I actually appreciate honesty and being made aware

I'd much rather base anything on truth than pretense.

Me too. I will see people who believe something that isn't true, either from being outdated or just based on incorrect assumptions. I assume, like me, they'd be interested to hear this. That they'd really like to hear that something is not correct, and why that is. That they'd be really interested in reading about it for themselves, plus all the surrounding literature on a topic. That's how I've always been. So I will go and find something that I believe is a good starting point. Something that introduces the topic at an appropriate level, but has links or relevant terms to search for, so they can go deeper into the subject.

But sometimes, it's ignored completely. It seems people don't want to update their knowledge. They just want to keep their objectively incorrect ideas. They don't share my passion for accuracy or for science. I really do not understand this rigidity, as it's not a trait I personally have. I want to hear the truth, not stick to incorrect ideas no matter what.

I believe this is the trait that is preventing people from listening, as it doesn't fit into what that person currently knows:

Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).

(Bold mine)

It's taken from the criteria for autism, but of course not everyone with autism has that trait, and people without autism can also have it.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I don't get it! And which part of that rhymes? Am I the jester? Who's the king? Am I the king??

You might be the king.

If everyone el

That's an example I've used endlessly

Honest answers:
"Yes you have a fat arse, but I think you're lovely anyway"
"No you have a skinny arse and you're asking me that for attention."

Evasive answers:
"Why do you have to ask, eh?"
"It doesn't matter what I think, what do YOU think?"

Diplomatic/tactful answers:
"It's no different than in any other outfit"
"I like you best in XXXX outfit, why don't you wear that?"

Dismissive answers:
"Don't fuss about that or we'll be late"
"Do you really think anyone's going to be staring at your behind?"

@Fridgemagnetman answer:

err. okay

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I believe this is the trait that is preventing people from listening, as it doesn't fit into what that person currently knows:

That might be right. It might not.

They may be communicating socially and you are interpreting them literally.

So, it may not be the accuracy that is important to them. It may be the emotions of feeling closer within their social group.

 

[Suzanne]

Two things stop me being honest when it comes to other people. I sense that in my childhood, I was scolded so much for even opening my mouth and talking that I felt it was safer to not and thus, have tried very hard to not offend peope, but slipped up a few times and it has been a nightmare for me, so much so, I would rather lie or at least say beforehand that I will tell the truth.

I have an obese friend and she endeavours to look after herself and is always self conscious that she is dressed in a bad way. If she asks my opinion, I will say what I think and she at least does not get offended.

She showed me a pair of huge earrings and asked if they would go with what she was wearing and I said that they will clash and she said: yes, I think so to and in truth, I thought: why ask then?

As for not taking the word of someone. Yep, I get this all the time. It is demoralising, because it shows that my word is not good enough.

In truth, I am mortally afraid of speaking a lot of time, in case I say the wrong thing, but at the same time, not sure what is the right thing to say.

 

[Oldlady]

This is an interesting topic. We are taught that honesty is the best policy, but that isn't true. Brutal honesty is ... well ... brutal.

I think it boils down to how people perceive your moral code. And from what I understand that is based on intention, deed, and consequence. For instance, if I ask you whether these pants make me look fat, your answer will indicate your moral compass. If you are brutally honest without considering my feelings and the outcome of your remarks, then you may be seen as less moral than someone who is more circumspect even though you tell the truth and they lie.

 

[Ken S.]

My own AS feature is being blunt (AKA honest). The positive flip side to this is that people trust my judgment and assessment of an issue. They know they'll get the truth, but it is exclusively "my" truth and "my" perspective. Like advice, you can ask for it, but you don't have to take it. It is in this way I don't fear truth. I know I am less emotional than most people, so even here "my" truth is the only one I can offer.

This is so spot on.
I get accused of being self centered for always using my life experiences as a basis for comparison to what other people say because it makes it easier for me to understand and relate. However since we are all the central character in our own lives we only really have our own experiences to draw upon.

 

[Oldlady]

I have to disagree that we only have our own experiences to draw upon. As humans we are able to 'put ourselves in someone else's shoes'. This is because most of us have a well developed capacity for empathy. It is also why we like and can relate to characters in stories.

I struggle with this because I am disagreeable and place my wants and needs over those of the tribe (but not over those of my family). So ... I am viewed as self centered also and I suppose I am when it comes to those outside of my family.

 

[Pats]

I have to disagree that we only have our own experiences to draw upon. As humans we are able to 'put ourselves in someone else's shoes'. This is because most of us have a well developed capacity for empathy. It is also why we like and can relate to characters in stories.

I struggle with this because I am disagreeable and place my wants and needs over those of the tribe (but not over those of my family). So ... I am viewed as self centered also and I suppose I am when it comes to those outside of my family.

I've had someone upset with me for my opinion yet they would not share theirs. I told them all I had to go on is what I thought, unless they show me how I'm wrong. No response. I can only base judgements on what I see and feel - thus my own experiences. Others can correct me, but what's in my mind is all I've got. And I can't relate to characters in stories - one reason I don't like to read fiction.
I can learn from other people's mistakes, like - they got in trouble for doing such and such so now I know not to do that. But that's probably about it.
I'm the person who has to ask "what do you need from me" and say "help me help you".

 

[onlything]

I have to disagree that we only have our own experiences to draw upon. As humans we are able to 'put ourselves in someone else's shoes'. This is because most of us have a well developed capacity for empathy. It is also why we like and can relate to characters in stories.

I struggle with this because I am disagreeable and place my wants and needs over those of the tribe (but not over those of my family). So ... I am viewed as self centered also and I suppose I am when it comes to those outside of my family.

And I cannot agree with you. From my own experience, I don't 'do' empathy. I can understand what someone is feeling only basing what I know about their situation on my own experiences. I can imagine some part of their pain only if I went through something similar. I can't 'put myself in another's shoes' though not for the lack of trying. It's something that is not possible for me and, from what I gathered, can be quite difficult for a person on the spectrum. I can sympathise, pity someone, yes, but empathy as in an instinctual understanding of other person's emotions and hardships is an abstraction to me. I know people claiming to understand another's emotions just through their tone of voice, short talk or even a look - but to me it's as plausible as telepathy.

Indeed, it is true for most people but let us not forget that we are on a forum where the majority of people are the minority in RL. As such, what you say may not be true for many of the users.

 

[55853]

It may be the emotions of feeling closer within their social group.

I've never been part of a social group, other than superficially. The only social situations I'm in are topic-based, where correction in acceptable and welcomed. I've never had a problem with this. So I'm not talking about real life, I am speaking about online discussions.

interpreting them literally

I may not understand your plays on words or cultural references, but a lot of that is because I'm not from your country. I'm really not as literal as you're making me out to be. I have comparative weakness in language, and I'm foreign. It's not a significant weakness, as it has not limited me in education at all. It also doesn't mean I can't comprehend or recognise contexts. I'm speaking of where something is clearly presented as fact on discussion forums online. I'm not speaking about social situations, as I'm not really in any of the type you are describing anyway.

 

[Oldlady]

And I cannot agree with you. From my own experience, I don't 'do' empathy. I can understand what someone is feeling only basing what I know about their situation on my own experiences. I can imagine some part of their pain only if I went through something similar. I can't 'put myself in another's shoes' though not for the lack of trying. It's something that is not possible for me and, from what I gathered, can be quite difficult for a person on the spectrum. I can sympathise, pity someone, yes, but empathy as in an instinctual understanding of other person's emotions and hardships is an abstraction to me. I know people claiming to understand another's emotions just through their tone of voice, short talk or even a look - but to me it's as plausible as telepathy.

Indeed, it is true for most people but let us not forget that we are on a forum where the majority of people are the minority in RL. As such, what you say may not be true for many of the users.

I have to disagree as well. Autistic individuals, by and large, only appear to lack empathy because they may lack the skills to recognize the other person's feelings, to share the other's hopes, cognitive ability, to show their feelings, and to pick up on cultural clues. All of these things can lead to the 'perception' that autistic people do not empathize because they can have social communication deficits, but many actually can and do empathize.

Also, there may be differences that make it harder for autistic people to empathize, however, empathy can be learned by teaching how to read body language, vocal tone, and facial expression.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Also, there may be differences that make it harder for autistic people to empathize, however, empathy can be learned by teaching how to read body language, vocal tone, and facial expression

If emoathy isn't expressed in a socially expected way,within your culture .then you can easily be labeled as lacking empathy.

Not because you lack it but because other people don't see your expressions as empathy but something else.

 

[55853]

As humans we are able to 'put ourselves in someone else's shoes

As pointed out, this is often impaired for people on the spectrum. I'm unsure on which test, but I remember this being one of the questions during my diagnosis. It doesn't mean I don't care about people, but it does mean I struggle to understand something I can't personally relate to my own experience.

It is also why we like and can relate to characters in stories.

Again, this difficulty with fiction was part of diagnosis. As an adult, I am now capable of following fictional stories without difficulty, but I am never "absorbed", like I have noticed in the vast majority of people. My mother in particular has commented on how detached I am. I've never felt anything, such as upset, from fiction. I can recognise it is a sad scene, but it never stops being an image on a screen or page in a book.

empathy can be learned by teaching how to read body language, vocal tone, and facial expression

That can teach you to recognise the emotion another person is feeling. I've taught myself a lot following my diagnosis. But I've really not got the deep understanding that is how empathy is currently defined.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I'm speaking of where something is clearly presented as fact on discussion forums online. I'm not speaking about social situations, as I'm not really in any of the type you are describing anyway

In your mind it is clearly presented as fact, even if it's an online form there can be a social element to it.

Meaning facts are all that is at play.

may not understand your plays on words or cultural references, but a lot of that is because I'm not from your country.

That's nothing to do with your example.

You taking things literally could be the way you have represented the example here.
In this case,meaning there is more to it,other than your view.

 

[55853]

That's nothing to do with your example

I'm aware, but I'm assuming that's your basis for calling me literal. I'm not described as literal in real life. It's frustrating trying to participate online, when you are repeatedly dismissed or even mocked for not understanding something that Americans have no issue with. I've quit many sites because of this, unfortunately.

I have not provided you with context. I am fully aware of the social elements of forums. I'd be surprised to hear if anyone was not aware of this. Please believe that I am capable of reading situations. This is, after all, on a topic that expresses frustration on not being believed.

 

[onlything]

'

I have to disagree as well. Autistic individuals, by and large, only appear to lack empathy because they may lack the skills to recognize the other person's feelings, to share the other's hopes, cognitive ability, to show their feelings, and to pick up on cultural clues. All of these things can lead to the 'perception' that autistic people do not empathize because they can have social communication deficits, but many actually can and do empathize.

Also, there may be differences that make it harder for autistic people to empathize, however, empathy can be learned by teaching how to read body language, vocal tone, and facial expression.

And yet, even if you learn how to recognise a person's emotions, it doesn't mean you will understand or feel what they are going through. Empathy is, according to the Cambridge dictionary, 'the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner'. Other dictionaries describe it similarly in different words, such as 'the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference' or 'the capacity to place oneself in another's position' like you said yourself. Recognising an emotion and understanding it enough to feel it, however, are two different things.

I can recognise through a person's body language that due to circumstances they are miserable or upset, I can also know the reason for that - it doesn't mean that I understand why they are feeling this way or how exactly they are feeling. Even if I have an impression of what it could be due to my own experiences, it doesn't mean I truly understand what they are going through.

One can argue that, according to contemporary researchers, there are two types of empathy ('affective empathy' being the feelings people get in response to others' emotions and 'cognitive empathy' being the recognition and understanding of another's emotions) but this division has come into play only in the last few years.

In my understanding there are three requirements that need to be met to empathise with another person:

1. Recognising an emotion.
2. Understanding an emotion.
3. Feeling in response to the emotion and (possibly) acting on them.

For me, I can recognise an emotion with moderate effort. I can understand an emotion with great effort or not at all if I was never in a situation the other person has landed in. And it's a lottery if I feel anything in response. However, all three come to not instinctual understanding but the basis in my own experiences and hard intelectual work on trying to understand other people.

If one takes into account the word 'sympathy', however, it's then slightly different since sympathy itself is 'acknowledging another person's emotional hardships and providing comfort and assurance'. It's very similar to empathy, although has only the first two requirements from the ones above.


Overall, the whole 'empathy', 'sympathy' and 'compassion' business is highly convoluted.

Of course, it may be different for you and others on this forum - no one says that an autistic person must not be empathetic to be autistic. Autism as a whole is a spectrum, after all, so different quirks and characteristics are only to be expected.

Oh, and apologies @Pats. It seems we have somehow ended up getting far from the topic and hijacking your thread!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I have not provided you with context. I am fully aware of the social elements of forums.

A social element to meaning and a literal element.

Your assumption of why I was calling you literal was incorrect.

Your expression of frustration of not being believed - I'm giving you possible explanations.
From your replies to me,it seems you've made incorrect assumptions.

You respond with ' I already know' and are not open to different interpretations,so I'm out.

 

[Oldlady]

As pointed out, this is often impaired for people on the spectrum. I'm unsure on which test, but I remember this being one of the questions during my diagnosis. It doesn't mean I don't care about people, but it does mean I struggle to understand something I can't personally relate to my own experience.


Again, this difficulty with fiction was part of diagnosis. As an adult, I am now capable of following fictional stories without difficulty, but I am never "absorbed", like I have noticed in the vast majority of people. My mother in particular has commented on how detached I am. I've never felt anything, such as upset, from fiction. I can recognise it is a sad scene, but it never stops being an image on a screen or page in a book.


That can teach you to recognise the emotion another person is feeling. I've taught myself a lot following my diagnosis. But I've really not got the deep understanding that is how empathy is currently defined.

I'm not sure that empathy requires a 'deep' understanding. The latest research suggests that the apparent lack of empathy in ASD individuals is related to issues with cognitive perspective taking. This would not require a great depth of understanding to correct, but rather could be learned through acquiring knowledge and understanding in the same way as all other cognition.

But, perhaps each person is limited in their ability to learn how to take another perspective.