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Featured People don't believe or appreciate honesty

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by Pats, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Pats

    Pats Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Seems the majority of us on the spectrum is honest to a fault. I see it in a lot of threads and I've definitely seen it in my own life. You know, I always thought and told people that you can say anything to anyone if you use the right tone. I'm starting to think maybe I was wrong. lol
    For one thing I'm not as clear as I think I'm being - I've learned that being on here. When I think I have made a point and the majority responds in a way that I realize I have not made my point - which I actually appreciate honesty and being made aware (most NT's just kind of ignore you and go on but never question anything like we do). I really do like that - that we question things and are honest because how will you otherwise know the truth and I'd much rather base anything on truth than pretense.
    But my question is why doesn't anyone believe it when I make a statement? When my kids were teenagers I would tell them, ie: If you go somewhere without asking first I will take away your internet privileges for a week. My son goes somewhere without asking. I change the password and he's furious because he didn't think I would. Or, as I said in a response to another thread, I tell my husband that I'm getting close to that point that I will be done and once I get there there's no hope. Nothing changes and I get to that point and he's shocked. I warn people what will happen (just because I know me) and it means nothing to them.
    I had a boss ask me a question and I answered truthfully then went to lunch. When I got back from lunch everyone was asking what I had said to her because she was crying after.
    No, I don't give fake compliments. If you ask me I'll tell you the truth - even if it's something about myself that I'd rather people not know.
    I like what @Autistamatic said in one of his Empathy videos about sometimes what seems like lack of empathy is lack of knowledge on our part - we can not say, "Oh, yes, your boyfriend is a terrible cheat" if we do not know that to be a fact, because we don't feel we're being honest.
    Some things I'm used to people not believing - there are some things about my past that I wouldn't believe if someone tried to tell me that happened to them. Or they don't believe the degree of difficulty doing certain things and being in certain situations.
    But in general, I like us because we can be honest and we can question things and we make up a world of real reality. (nothing fake here)
     
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  2. Fridgemagnetman

    Fridgemagnetman I only have one V.I.P Member

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    It's the difference between 2 forms of communication.

    1. To convey truth, logic - interpreating questions literally,perhaps.
    2. To convey emotions - ememes as they are called.

    Often NT's use No. 2.

    They don't believe what we say as most of what they say is vapid and not absolute.

    Just like emotions are vapid....

    With us, what we say is absolute.

    Therefore,despite being brash, we can also be careful about what we say.

    As there is no taking it back.

    Also explains why we can be hurt so much by careless words.
     
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  3. Mia

    Mia Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    My Dad used to say that he had the ability to see through the garbage and find the truth in the things people said. He was referring to politics and media at the time. His 'truth' is not everyone's though. When you tell someone that they are a hopeless alcoholic for example, or an awful parent, it isn't always true. It's an absolute judgement of them at that moment, as alcoholics can stop drinking and parents can learn to be better. I think sometimes the truth takes away the fantasy world some live in, and it takes away hope. And it hurts them, saying the obvious, no matter if it's true.

    When I was a child, an older sibling maintained that I lied all the time. It was like 'gaslighting' on her part. She lied and was believed, and I was the truth teller and wasn't believed. A priest told me during confession that my honesty would prevail. And that the dishonest would never inherit the earth. Somehow, I think he may have been partially wrong.
     
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  4. Progster

    Progster Gone sideways to the sun V.I.P Member

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    I think that they need it to be real before they believe it, especially in the case of kids, who are always testing the boundaries.

    For most people a threat is a kind of ememe as @Fridgemagnetman mentions above, it's conveying an emotion, rather than a consequence, so people often don't take threats seriously or literally. For them it's not saying literally that you will take away the internet, it's saying "I'm angry right now". For us, we tend to take threats more literally and are more likely to heed the consequence. A bit like when people say "I'll kill you!! when they are angry, normally they don't literally mean that they are going to commit murder, they are expressing and delivering an emotion the person they are angry with.
     
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  5. Autistamatic

    Autistamatic He's just this guy, you know? V.I.P Member

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    The infographic I've copied in below is produced by the University of Leeds as an aide to employers and educators in identifying positive traits within autistic people, some of which are often misconstrued as problems. The bottom-right one is of particular relevance to this subject...

    positives.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
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  6. Mary Terry

    Mary Terry Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Most of what NTs say is not vapid and is often absolute. Emotions are not typically vapid, unless it is something like the ND poster here the other day who is "in love" with a public figure. It's my experience that the higher functioning the autistic person, the more capable they are of lying. LFAs rarely lie because they lack the guile and manipulative qualities of others.

    I'd like to hear from others here who are married or close to NTs about their thoughts on this.
     
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  7. Ken S.

    Ken S. Dog Cookie King V.I.P Member

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    When I did socialize, (Haven't in about 12 years now) I noticed people only want to hear their "truth" and not honesty. Then come the accusations of being inappropriate for speaking your mind. Since we are being honest, The only thing I really fear is my inability to stop if I ever did have to get violent with someone so before it can escalate to that point it's time to go home and hit the old sandbag. I don't miss it one bit.
     
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  8. onlything

    onlything Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Honesty is definitely something that should be appreciated more, especially in the world were everything is so fake. People overall seem to treat it like a game - to guess what is true and what not, to pretend to be oblivious about some things, to lie to make yourself seem just that bit more worthy, of a bit higher status than others. I don't like this game and hypocrisy but it doesn't mean that honesty is always good. It's not. There are also different ways of saying something truthfully. You may do it gently, make a subtle mention not to hurt another person's feelings - or be brash and harsh, and no-nonsense - and make a lot of enemies.
     
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  9. Fridgemagnetman

    Fridgemagnetman I only have one V.I.P Member

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    This is TRUE.

    Do I win the game ?
     
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  10. Pats

    Pats Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Years ago there was a man at church that I was never comfortable about because he was always too much with the kids. It just didn't seem right that the majority of this grown man's time was spent with kids than adults. We were friends but I would never have left my kids with him alone. Well, he was a gym teacher and charged with indecent liberties with a student. While the trial was going on I had a daughter in the hospital and he and his wife offered to babysit the kids. My mom wanted to make up excuses every time as to why not but I explained that under the current circumstances I couldn't - I didn't want them to keep asking and it was obvious why, so why pretend. He was found guilty. His wife ended up leaving him. And how could they have expected me to respond any other way. I can't live on made up excuses.
     
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  11. Autistamatic

    Autistamatic He's just this guy, you know? V.I.P Member

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    My first wife & other NT partners would often use emotional arguments or distortions of the truth to get their way. My wife and partner of the last 13yrs is as honest and candid with me as I am with her. That's one of the most significant reasons why it works.
     
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  12. Ken S.

    Ken S. Dog Cookie King V.I.P Member

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    Yes and the prize is one magnet for the fridge.
     
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  13. sidd851

    sidd851 If I'm not late, I'm not needed. V.I.P Member

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    Precisely.
    Hence my tendency and inclination to judge thoughts, words, actions, rather than judging thinkers, speakers, actors.

    Not. Always. Easy.
     
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  14. sidd851

    sidd851 If I'm not late, I'm not needed. V.I.P Member

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    Looking for understanding from within the confines of personality,
    Rather than let personality be created from the totality of understanding.
    Two very opposite, and very differing viewpoints, with two very different conclusions.
     
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  15. Fridgemagnetman

    Fridgemagnetman I only have one V.I.P Member

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    I've found reality is often changed to reduce cognitive dissonance.

    In a way people create the reality for themselves and the part where they behaved horribly is erased as they move forward.

    Dictated by emotions and not being able to handle feelings. They create a story for themselves and Garner support etc from friends who reflect the story back to them.
    Making it easier to convince themselves the story is true.

    Truth by consensus and social groups to base life experience around feelings.
     
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  16. Ken S.

    Ken S. Dog Cookie King V.I.P Member

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    Been married for 24 years now, I don't know if it is an "NT" thing as much as a personality trait but I have noticed people like to use guilt to manipulate others.
     
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  17. sidd851

    sidd851 If I'm not late, I'm not needed. V.I.P Member

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    There is an underlying principle that we lose sight of, here, rather easily.

    It is the disconnect from empathy that is necessary to manipulate, by any means.

    I take exception to the disconnect itself as unethical.
    What follows is bound to be bad, whatever may follow, when begun with that step.

    Nothing good comes of disregarding empathy. Ever.
     
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  18. sidd851

    sidd851 If I'm not late, I'm not needed. V.I.P Member

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    Agreed.
    Emotions are vapid if they are the sole executive control.

    Logic and ethics must remain the oversight to emotion, regardless how strongly or insistently it is felt.

    Example:
    If I had killed my wife when I wanted to, I'd be out by now.

    True.
    Superfluous nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
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  19. Peter Morrison

    Peter Morrison Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    You get nowhere if you are looking for solutions, or advice, and the truth is being disguised. Real truth should be understandable without the influence of one's emotional relationship to the issue. Mixing the two creates a fantasy situation, and the only way through it without causing upset is to lie. Imagine what goes through your mind when someone asks "How do I look"? We are naturally critical because we are looking for what's wrong, not focusing on what's right. It's a negative approach, but the objective of the question is to find ways to look good by getting rid of what looks bad. Add a layer of personal taste, and you have an even bigger mess. Do you tell the truth, or do you spare feelings by saying "great" just to protect an ego.

    I had always imagined that if we all truly knew what other people think about us, we would all be appalled. For as much value as truth may have, we can't express it freely. It can hurt and alienate people quickly. My own AS feature is being blunt (AKA honest). The positive flip side to this is that people trust my judgement and assessment of an issue. They know they'll get the truth, but it is exclusively "my" truth and "my" perspective. Like advice, you can ask for it, but you don't have to take it. It is in this way I don't fear truth. I know I am less emotional than most people, so even here "my" truth is the only one I can offer.

    Absolute truth can only apply to undisputed facts. Truth is held back sometimes to soften a shock or expected reaction. It is done with the idea of kindness, but it is still an avoidance of truth. We're emotional beings and we want our environment to be kind and considerate. That means having to lie from time to time. We don't like the lies because they are most often part of some sinister scheme. Trust disappears. Which is best; truth or trust?
     
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  20. Gracey

    Gracey Well-Known Member

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    Some people might not like to hear an honest opinion because it doesn’t fit with what they believe.

    disrupts their equilibrium, shakes up their core beliefs. May have to consider an idea different to the one they’re comfortable with.

    My own honesty comes from my knowledge about my own reality...
    ... which I suspect may be a lot different than the person I’m speaking with.

    I’m going to use “Does my butt look big in this ?”

    I believe it’s genetics, diet and lifestyle that determines butt size, not clothing. and the asker, deep down, already knows the answer.

    Will you confirm their ...insecurity(?)... about their body

    Or will you avoid honesty about specifics,
    and tell them they look fabulous and the colour of clothing really suits them ?
    Which will be an honest answer,
    Just not the question you were asked.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
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