People don't believe or appreciate honesty

[Crossbreed]

@Oldlady , I think that our native conscience isn't altruistic as much as it is about maintaining an orderly frame of reference. Even before I became a Christian, the Golden Rule really resonated with me. If we did not abide by that standard, we would have no basis for legal refuge.

------------------------
Driving like my brother​

Two guys are driving. Well, actually, only one is driving, the other is riding. Anyway, they're driving along, and they come to a red light. The driver blows right through it! The passenger says "What the hell, man?! That was a red light!" The driver waves him off, saying, "My brother drives like this!"

So they drive a little while longer, and they come to another red light. Once again, the driver blows right through it. The passenger freaks out. The driver says, "Man, relax, alright? My brother always drives like this, and he's never been in one accident."

A few moments later, they come to a green light, and they stop. The passenger looks at the driver and says, "What the hell are you stopping now for?"

"Well, my brother might be coming the other way!"

 

[onlything]

I see we're getting into a discussion about nature vs. nurture now.

We're not born good, nor are we born bad. As said before, 'bad' and 'good' are moral constructs. What is morality then? It's a set of unwritten and written rules children learn from their caretakers and surroundings, even from things like television or books. There is a reason why children need to be told what is acceptable and what is not. A child won't share a toy unless someone teaches them that they are supposed to - it's theirs and they will play with it. A child will take a lying candy because they like candies and can't see anything wrong with it - unless someone tells them that no, they shouldn't, that it belongs to someone else and stealing is bad, or that you don't know what it is and could be dangerous.

A child is like a blank slate with the only direction being survival at the cost of those around. Every child during their early years is at least selfish or even egoistic. Once again, for survival.

Also, morality is different for every culture. There are a few basic rules most cultures comply with - the basic rules a child learns very early on. Then, there are smaller rules that are different even for every family. Things like lying or stealing - some people don't see anything wrong with it, they brought up this way. A child from a poor family taught to steal early or to get money by begging from naive strangers - they won't feel wrong for what they do because they were taught that what they do isn't wrong.

There was an instance of a group of children, maybe between 7 and 10 years old, living in my neighborhood whose parents taught them to go around houses, knock and ask for money or food 'because they are so hungry'. Poor family, people thought, let's help them. It worked for a few months quite well, to be honest, before a few of us witnessed these children throwing gifted apples and crashing them for fun while complaining about how they 'got only trash on that day'.

It only shows that everyone's moral compass differs, depending on experiences, surroundings, nature and fear of consequences.

Good doesn't lie in human nature. Bad doesn't lie in it either. A human has a potential for both and it depends on a person who they in the end decide to become.

 

[Pats]

I see we're getting into a discussion about nature vs. nurture now.

We're not born good, nor are we born bad. As said before, 'bad' and 'good' are moral constructs. What is morality then? It's a set of unwritten and written rules children learn from their caretakers and surroundings, even from things like television or books. There is a reason why children need to be told what is acceptable and what is not. A child won't share a toy unless someone teaches them that they are supposed to - it's theirs and they will play with it. A child will take a lying candy because they like candies and can't see anything wrong with it - unless someone tells them that no, they shouldn't, that it belongs to someone else and stealing is bad, or that you don't know what it is and could be dangerous.

A child is like a blank slate with the only direction being survival at the cost of those around. Every child during their early years is at least selfish or even egoistic. Once again, for survival.

Also, morality is different for every culture. There are a few basic rules most cultures comply with - the basic rules a child learns very early on. Then, there are smaller rules that are different even for every family. Things like lying or stealing - some people don't see anything wrong with it, they brought up this way. A child from a poor family taught to steal early or to get money by begging from naive strangers - they won't feel wrong for what they do because they were taught that what they do isn't wrong.

There was an instance of a group of children, maybe between 7 and 10 years old, living in my neighborhood whose parents taught them to go around houses, knock and ask for money or food 'because they are so hungry'. Poor family, people thought, let's help them. It worked for a few months quite well, to be honest, before a few of us witnessed these children throwing gifted apples and crashing them for fun while complaining about how they 'got only trash on that day'.

It only shows that everyone's moral compass differs, depending on experiences, surroundings, nature and fear of consequences.

Good doesn't lie in human nature. Bad doesn't lie in it either. A human has a potential for both and it depends on a person who they in the end decide to become.

I think good and bad does lie in our human nature and then we add influences to either strengthen or weaken these things. It's like the easy child being raised by an easy parent will turn out good, difficult child raised by a difficult parent will turn out bad, easy child raised by difficult parent could go either way and difficult child raised by easy parent can go either way.
I can tell you for a fact that my oldest son, by nature did share everything, even as a baby, and would get upset if the other child wouldn't take what he offered. It was who he was from day one. They weren't all like that, but he was - without the need to teach him those things.
I grew up in a home that it was really hard to distinguish between right and wrong, but by instinct I knew. I was an easy child.

 

[onlything]

I think good and bad does lie in our human nature and then we add influences to either strengthen or weaken these things. It's like the easy child being raised by an easy parent will turn out good, difficult child raised by a difficult parent will turn out bad, easy child raised by difficult parent could go either way and difficult child raised by easy parent can go either way.
I can tell you for a fact that my oldest son, by nature did share everything, even as a baby, and would get upset if the other child wouldn't take what he offered. It was who he was from day one. They weren't all like that, but he was - without the need to teach him those things.
I grew up in a home that it was really hard to distinguish between right and wrong, but by instinct I knew. I was an easy child.

Fair enough. Your eldest sounds like a good kid (man?). The children I had met and lived with learnt proper/non-proper behaviours through two ways: by verbal instruction or by observation. A little cousin of mine observed me and aunt sharing lunch and started sharing her things soon afterwards, both toys and snacks. Your son could have learnt this way - or he was just a little angel eh?

I still believe that children are born blank. Not fully, as mentioned nature always does have some influence, but nurture seems to be much more important influence.

 

[Nauti]

I don't, at all, think we are born as "blank slates".
How do you explain child prodigies?
Buddhism?
Children who remember, in explicit detail, past life, experiences?
Regression memories that are backed up by historical fact, when researched?


I am a confident believer in reincarnation. It's the only theory that makes sense (to me), and my own past life recall, is too real for me to discount.

But I'm not trying to convince anybody. Research for yourselves, if it's something that interests you. It does me and I've looked into it, pretty extensively, enough to convince me.

So no, no "blank slate" for me.

Children vary. I have seven and there are no rules that fit. They have always had predispositions, but, as children, they are highly malleable.

Some take more work to teach civility to, some are naturally compassionate and gentle. Some are sensitive to others, some are distinctly not.

My youngest is a natural manipulator, was very violent from a very young age, lies easily and is charming and highly intelligent.He claims that he would be a psychopath, if it wasn't for me, he claims, I taught him morality, and, to not act on his violent and manipulative impulses.

I will say, that he was very hard work.He needed very firm boundaries, he needed ethical and honourable people, like myself and my partner, to model "morals" and civil behaviour.

He claims that he didn't want to be like the people he saw who lied, were unkind and mean, he wanted to be like me, because I was (am) the only person he trusts and he chose to change his behaviour, to be more like mine, because he values our relationship, my respect and love for him.

His father? Not so much. His father is one of the liar, abuser, drug taker, criminal people that my son chooses not to be like.

As for me? My.mother told me that I shouldn't lie, because she would be able to tell. I tried it out, I tested her, with a minor fib about a school carnival. She didn't detect the lie, but I felt so uncomfortable telling it. My own conscence pricked me, badly. I was five.

I noticed that she wasn't a very honest or accountable person, though, manipulative, blamey, histronic. I didn't like it. I didn't even like being lied to about Santa. I was mortified to find out that was a lie. I have never lied to my children about that. I detest lying and being lied to.

My ex used to taunt me, calling me a "goody two shoes" because of my honesty. My current Aspie partner loves me for my honesty.

I like being honest. I like certainty, which is hard to come by. I like the feeling of being committed to truth, more than popularity. I like that my kid's and my partner trust me and can trust me, because I'm honest with them. I try not to be unkind and hurtful with my honesty, because I really don't like hurting people with my truthfulness. I avoid many people because of it.

My mother taught me "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all", and that has shut down communication between us, because she was been someone who has hurt me a lot.

So my world has narrowed, because of my commitment to truthfulness and my compassion and unwillingness to cause upset and hurt.

Maybe I am a little cowardly because I cannot bare to be abused and rejected, due to my honesty, these days? I don't know, I just know I am tired of conflict and social scapegoating and I need a rest from all that, so I lay low, now, for the moment.

 

[Pats]

I don't, at all, think we are born as "blank slates".
How do you explain child prodigies?
Buddhism?
Children who remember, in explicit detail, past life, experiences?
Regression memories that are backed up by historical fact, when researched?


I am a confident believer in reincarnation. It's the only theory that makes sense (to me), and my own past life recall, is too real for me to discount.

But I'm not trying to convince anybody. Research for yourselves, if it's something that interests you. It does me and I've looked into it, pretty extensively, enough to convince me.

So no, no "blank slate" for me.

Children vary. I have seven and there are no rules that fit. They have always had predispositions, but, as children, they are highly malleable.

Some take more work to teach civility to, some are naturally compassionate and gentle. Some are sensitive to others, some are distinctly not.

My youngest is a natural manipulator, was very violent from a very young age, lies easily and is charming and highly intelligent.He claims that he would be a psychopath, if it wasn't for me, he claims, I taught him morality, and, to not act on his violent and manipulative impulses.

I will say, that he was very hard work.He needed very firm boundaries, he needed ethical and honourable people, like myself and my partner, to model "morals" and civil behaviour.

He claims that he didn't want to be like the people he saw who lied, were unkind and mean, he wanted to be like me, because I was (am) the only person he trusts and he chose to change his behaviour, to be more like mine, because he values our relationship, my respect and love for him.

His father? Not so much. His father is one of the liar, abuser, drug taker, criminal people that my son chooses not to be like.

As for me? My.mother told me that I shouldn't lie, because she would be able to tell. I tried it out, I tested her, with a minor fib about a school carnival. She didn't detect the lie, but I felt so uncomfortable telling it. My own conscence pricked me, badly. I was five.

I noticed that she wasn't a very honest or accountable person, though, manipulative, blamey, histronic. I didn't like it. I didn't even like being lied to about Santa. I was mortified to find out that was a lie. I have never lied to my children about that. I detest lying and being lied to.

My ex used to taunt me, calling me a "goody two shoes" because of my honesty. My current Aspie partner loves me for my honesty.

I like being honest. I like certainty, which is hard to come by. I like the feeling of being committed to truth, more than popularity. I like that my kid's and my partner trust me and can trust me, because I'm honest with them. I try not to be unkind and hurtful with my honesty, because I really don't like hurting people with my truthfulness. I avoid many people because of it.

My mother taught me "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all", and that has shut down communication between us, because she was been someone who has hurt me a lot.

So my world has narrowed, because of my commitment to truthfulness and my compassion and unwillingness to cause upset and hurt.

Maybe I am a little cowardly because I cannot bare to be abused and rejected, due to my honesty, these days? I don't know, I just know I am tired of conflict and social scapegoating and I need a rest from all that, so I lay low, now, for the moment.

And one baby is born wanting held all the time and the next born not wanting held at all. And I mean literally moments from birth already have individualities.

 

[Gracey]

Yes they do arrive partly programmed but don’t grow up in a vacuum.

Subject to boundaries, limitations, what’s acceptable, what isn’t.

Messages and information from interacting with the world around them to be processed and understood, or not.

 

[Oldlady]

@Oldlady , I think that our native conscience isn't altruistic as much as it is about maintaining an orderly frame of reference. Even before I became a Christian, the Golden Rule really resonated with me. If we did not abide by that standard, we would have no basis for legal refuge.

------------------------
Driving like my brother​

Two guys are driving. Well, actually, only one is driving, the other is riding. Anyway, they're driving along, and they come to a red light. The driver blows right through it! The passenger says "What the hell, man?! That was a red light!" The driver waves him off, saying, "My brother drives like this!"

So they drive a little while longer, and they come to another red light. Once again, the driver blows right through it. The passenger freaks out. The driver says, "Man, relax, alright? My brother always drives like this, and he's never been in one accident."

A few moments later, they come to a green light, and they stop. The passenger looks at the driver and says, "What the hell are you stopping now for?"

"Well, my brother might be coming the other way!"

I don't think we are instinctively altruistic, although many of us can display the behavior at times. Research suggests that we evolved to be hyper-social and with this evolved morality.

 

[Oldlady]

I see we're getting into a discussion about nature vs. nurture now.

We're not born good, nor are we born bad. As said before, 'bad' and 'good' are moral constructs. What is morality then? It's a set of unwritten and written rules children learn from their caretakers and surroundings, even from things like television or books. There is a reason why children need to be told what is acceptable and what is not. A child won't share a toy unless someone teaches them that they are supposed to - it's theirs and they will play with it. A child will take a lying candy because they like candies and can't see anything wrong with it - unless someone tells them that no, they shouldn't, that it belongs to someone else and stealing is bad, or that you don't know what it is and could be dangerous.

A child is like a blank slate with the only direction being survival at the cost of those around. Every child during their early years is at least selfish or even egoistic. Once again, for survival.

Also, morality is different for every culture. There are a few basic rules most cultures comply with - the basic rules a child learns very early on. Then, there are smaller rules that are different even for every family. Things like lying or stealing - some people don't see anything wrong with it, they brought up this way. A child from a poor family taught to steal early or to get money by begging from naive strangers - they won't feel wrong for what they do because they were taught that what they do isn't wrong.

There was an instance of a group of children, maybe between 7 and 10 years old, living in my neighborhood whose parents taught them to go around houses, knock and ask for money or food 'because they are so hungry'. Poor family, people thought, let's help them. It worked for a few months quite well, to be honest, before a few of us witnessed these children throwing gifted apples and crashing them for fun while complaining about how they 'got only trash on that day'.

It only shows that everyone's moral compass differs, depending on experiences, surroundings, nature and fear of consequences.

Good doesn't lie in human nature. Bad doesn't lie in it either. A human has a potential for both and it depends on a person who they in the end decide to become.

I disagree. We do not appear to be blank slates when we are born, but have a blueprint DNA which guides much of our thinking, feeling, and behavior.

 

[Oldlady]

There is a book by Robert Plomin (a geneticist) which describes how ... "A century of genetic research shows that DNA differences inherited from our parents are the consistent life-long sources of our psychological individuality―the blueprint that makes us who we are. This, says Plomin, is a game changer ... Nature, not nurture is what makes us who we are."

Blueprint:How DNA Makes Us Who We Are
https://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-Ho.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

[Ken S.]

@Oldlady
I can "Put myself in others shoes" and feel sorry for them when they are suffering but nobody can really know what is going on in another's mind. As far as relating to a character in a book unless that character is an electrical schematic symbol or instructional drawings on a set of blueprints (inanimate objects) I personally can't relate.

 

[Otenba]

And one baby is born wanting held all the time and the next born not wanting held at all. And I mean literally moments from birth already have individualities.

Learnt behaviours, and down to parent interpretation of child's demand. Sometimes people won't ask for something they don't know or think to ask for. No different for children.

 

[Pats]

Learnt behaviours, and down to parent interpretation of child's demand. Sometimes people won't ask for something they don't know or think to ask for. No different for children.

Not all learnt behaviors and interpretation. My grandson was born and every time he was put down he screamed, even to change his diaper but was okay as long as he was being held. I mean he wanted held every second. My granddaughter would fuss, wanting put down. So if what some of you seem to be saying that everything is learnt, then the idea of being born homosexual is false?

 

[Otenba]

Not all learnt behaviors and interpretation. My grandson was born and every time he was put down he screamed, even to change his diaper but was okay as long as he was being held. I mean he wanted held every second. My granddaughter would fuss, wanting put down. So if what some of you seem to be saying that everything is learnt, then the idea of being born homosexual is false?

This is putting words in my mouth. I was talking about children wanting attention not someone's sexual preferences. In case it comes into issue and anyone make more assumptions - I do believe people can't help who they're attracted to. Who said it was **all** learned behaviours also? This is not a black and white thing, I hope you realise. People are complicated.

Your point of view is coming from how you interpreted those children you know, from what you're saying.

 

[Pats]

This is putting words in my mouth. I was talking about children wanting attention not someone's sexual preferences. In case it comes into issue and anyone make more assumptions - I do believe people can't help who they're attracted to. Who said it was **all** learned behaviours also? This is not a black and white thing, I hope you realise. People are complicated.

Your point of view is coming from how you interpreted those children you know, from what you're saying.

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were saying it was all learnt behavior and that the babies being born either wanting held or wanting put down was my interpretation of what I thought they wanted and I was trying to point out that there are things that you are born with and it was not my interpretation. I was also pointing out to others who feel babies are born blank that they are not. I used the example of who they are attracted to because it's said we're born that way, and therefore we are born with other things that are part of our personalities and who we are.
I agree people are very complicated. My apologies if I misunderstood.

 

[Otenba]

That's okay. Sorry too if I misunderstood as well.

I agree! We are not blank slates when we're born. We are certainly not just brain dead in the womb (unless unfortunate circumstance). You hear things like your parents voices, etc. Babies are known to dance to music in their mothers tummies too.

 

[Pats]

On another interesting note. I am amazed when it comes to watching someone grow from a newborn into an adult. It's fascinating. Now it makes me wonder just how much we really are affected by our environment. When they are babies, you can see little things about their individualities and you can actually watch those things grow and mature yet remain the same. Because of my fascination with people I guess I tend to sometimes just sit and watch and study them and try to figure out how they are thinking. Yes, there's a lot you can get from watching infants closely, more than you can imagine. Kind of like people who study animals I guess. They can only study them from observation so the things they learn about animals can not be 100% factual because they can't actually get into their heads. Same with people. But you can see certain traits and personality traits that do not change as they grow into adults.
I previously used my son who wanted to share. He couldn't even talk yet, was under 2 years of age when he got upset when the neighbors little girls did not want the banana he was trying to give her. He didn't learn this from me. When he was 3, we were in a car with my uncle and cousins - 1 cousin was his age and she was being mean and would hold up a chicklet and when he'd go to reach for it, she'd stick it in her mouth. She did this over and over and I was so irritated I told him that when we got home I would fix him a banana split with ice cream, bananas, chocolate syrup and whipped cream. You know what he said? Can 'cousin' have some too? Man, that put me in my place real quick. "Yeeees" I said begrudgingly. But he hasn't changed - he's the person that will stop and help and elderly person finish mowing their yard before the rain comes. That's just who he is and who he has always been - even though, in my actions I would have taught him differently.

 

[WereBear]

Also, there is a book out called 'Blueprint' that indicates the latest research pointing to DNA as having the most profound influence on who we are, as opposed to our upbringing. This makes sense to me since children raised by the same parents in the same house can be so different.

Adoption studies are all about this. The best example I have heard of was how singer/songwriter Joni Mitchel was young, poor, pregnant, and gave her daughter up for adoption. The daughter was raised in a family which valued convention and favored practical over artistic concerns. They discouraged the child from expressing herself through art, and would deny her feelings of “difference” from earliest childhood by telling her she was their biological child.

Upon adulthood, her adoptive brother felt “she needed to be told,” and told her. She managed to track down her biological mother. But it was a rocky life and rocky relationship, because her adoptive family believed in the Blank Slate, and this simply is not true.

His father? Not so much. His father is one of the liar, abuser, drug taker, criminal people that my son chooses not to be like.

They have been tracking down and isolating such genetics, and now this can be (mostly) detected via brain scan. A doctor/scientist wrote a book about it: he was in charge of the study and was surprised that his own scan had been put in the “psychopath” category.

However, like your son, he had been raised with love, taught to channel his desires into paths that would give back for himself and others, and had chosen a scientific career where he cared for people, as he was best able. He was a credit to society despite those genetics which would make it so easy to be destructive and miserable.

I think we have far more of these psychopath genetics that we acknowledge. Incidence is considered 1-3% currently, but I think that only counts the people who did not have the benefit of patient, devoted, upbringings like the sons in this comment.

We get our genes. Then our formative years are spent learning to use them for good; or battle the anger that comes from frustrating our true nature.

...continued in next post...

 

[WereBear]

I am an example of what can happen when bringing up an autistic child without difficult co-morbidities present at birth, OR imposed by the nurture such a child might get.

Since I was born long before autism was known, I was seen as a “difficult and rebellious” child because I was a cis-het female in a culture where that meant I was basically an incubator who cleaned and made men feel good about themselves.

This was sharply against my own nature, which would call things as I saw them, had no interested in domesticity, and did not want to hide my intelligence to get married.

My mother took my failure to comform to the femininity around us and the way she was raised, as disappointment, but she was not cruel about it. My father was outright and openly happy that I did well academically. I had social challenges in small towns, but it wasn’t until high school that I had enough people to mingle with that I could find my natural home in the art crowd. This let me make friends and date.

I don’t think I had deficiences so much as I had so few people with common interests to choose among.

Had I been born in the wrong decade, I would have been forced into “special” education, tortuous ABA “therapy,” and branded as “handicapped.”

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I was a cis-het female in a culture where that meant I was basically an incubator who cleaned and made men feel good about themselves

Those were the days

You were fortunate with your parents, I think.

A lot of 'rebels' or other labels given,usually pejorative, were treated far worse.
Parents not being able to break free or see beyond any labels or social norms st the time.
My wife,Irish, and the youngest daughter, was expected to be the ''help'.
The way things were back then.
All family resources to go to the eldest son.