Is God NT?

[Bay]

Here is an interesting article by a scientist who writes about cognition and neuroscience. He writes about a couple of studies that seem to indicate a higher rate of atheism among autistics, or that autists experience religion differently than NTs.

I found it interesting because I regard myself as agnostic, and suddenly it makes more sense. I cannot know what other people think or feel, why would God be any different? I don't mean to say that God is the same as people, only that If I cannot understand the people right in front of me, how could I hope to understand an entity who I can't even see?

It also explains why I am mistrustful of evangelicalism or emotion-based religious experience. I find it baffling that someone's life can be transformed by something that can only be experienced but cannot be described. So I wonder, is God (or religion) more NT than I am?

Anyway, interesting article can be found here: Blog | The 7 Laws of Magical Thinking

 

[imagesbyholly]

I have asperger's/ocd. I am a christian. I was raised in the Catholic Church, rejected it for atheism, rejected that for New Age Spirituality because I knew there was more to the universe than atheism would have. I became desperate for what was true, but still very antagonistic toward christianity in particular. Then (how else can I say it?) God got me to go to church with this girl in my college math class in sort of a tricky way- I wasn't going there for truth, just too look into their program for juvenile delinquints- and God spoke to me there. He led me on (pursued) me all the way. Such intense love as I never felt in all my life. Safe feeling love. And truth.

My problem is an intensified forgetting of God's goodness. But he knows I'm an aspie and I'm that way for a reason, and he keeps reminding me. He doesn't fade away from my life, and He won't let me fade him away and practice social dissociation on Him for long. He's the only one who is always the same to me- a solid rock and a firm foundation. I know that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, and that he took the punishment for our sins by dying on a wooden stake, and that he rose from the dead defeating sin and death on the third day after the crucifiction. The thing is, people debate religion, but that's not what is important. It is God- God is. And he makes himself known. I used to complain that if there is a God, where is he? It is a process for everyone.

But it's been ten long, difficult years since I first really believed, and nothing has changed. I don't doubt. It's not like trying to believe in a fairy tail like trying to believe in God felt like when I was a kid. And' I'm much more confident now- my art and singing and study and relationships took off with flying colors after I believed. I know God gave me the ability to do portraits as a special gift to say I love you because I had been through so many hard things and my ocd was flaring up again. It was like he said "here is a good channel for that obsessive tendancy." But it's also like stimming and relief- I'm happier and more social after I've been working on the details of someone's face. It's like I can see the glory of God reflected in their eyes when I finish them. That's my experience with religion in a very abbreviated form.

 

[Geordie]

Spoiler

I am a diagnosed Aspie, and I am a Christian.

I used to think, God is just the way He is. He is present everywhere.

"Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it" - Genesis 28:16 NKJV

Because we happen to have some deficits in social understanding, and spirituality looks like a social construct, so we may not feel Him because we may not have the know-how to have a social experience. So our idea of God may be a more lonesome one than others, so much so that some of us who try to feel closer to God may be discouraged. I did feel discouraged.

However, the more I try to understand my own conditions, its strengths and its limitations, I began to use them more effectively for the betterment of my life. I feel that autism really limits me in a sense that I may not have social know-how to function in our world, but because of this, I make this up with some focus in my life - I always know what I really want, at least. And I also can think creatively from others, because I do not seem to get what the crowd gets. Personally, I really thank God for who I am.

No matter what, though, I recognise that some people can feel God, while some don't. We'll live our lives our own way. But for me, I'll see what God has in plans for me, even though I may have different paths ahead that He could have charted for me.

Objectively, God is neither an NT nor an Aspie. God is just the way He is, that is, God. Either we feel Him, or we don't.

Nevertheless, let us respect each other's religious views. We can have different ways of experiencing spirituality.

 

[Bay]

I imagine that everyone here respects everyone else's religious views. Any views that I share reflect only on my own experience.

 

[Soup]

I'm an athiest. I want to honestly express my opinion BUT I don't want to offend any believers in whatever religion they adhere to. Please don't read this if you're religious & you're the type who gets offended. <---fair warning. Please heed it.

1. I think that the god of the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible for Jewish people) shows both psychopathic & deeply narcissistic traits. He's someone I could neither respect nor even consider worshipping or obeying. Fearsome: yes. He is that BUT not because of divine this or that BUT because he's a violent, explosive murderous vengeful jealous crack-pot!

2. The god of the new testament is an absentee landlord. Jesus, his alleged 'only begotten son' must 'consent' to be tortured, humiliated & murdered before so-called god can 'forgive' a bunch of other people HE created in an vulnerable state THEN permitted them to be decieved by a talking reptile & then punished them for it?

Let me see: the forbidden tree was not enclosed, there wasn't even a sign sating FORBIDDEN FRUIT: DO NOT CONSUME. SURE he warned Adam about it, but what meaning does "On that day you will surely die" have to someone who never heard of, saw or experienced death?!? Then, place the tree right in the middle of an unsecured area, ALLOW a freakin' talking lizard (supposedly containing Lucifer) to screw up his entire carefully planned creation? REALLY?

Think of a parent placing several glasses of poisoned purple Kool Aid on the middle of the kitchen table. It looks delicious & smells like sweetened grapes: VERY appealing. Picture him or her telling her child. "Now don't ever ever drink this: if you take even one sip, you will die!" The kid resists the temptation then tells his younger sister: mom/dad said to NEVER drink this because you will DIE if you do. Along comes the family dog, Fluffkins. Fluffkins tells them, that's not true: mom/dad just want to keep it all for themselves: they don't want YOU to be like them. This is cool 'grown-up' stuff.

Kid 2 thinks about it. Takes a good look at a glass of purple liquid. Smells it. Hmmmm....looks good, smells great... She takes a sip... DOESN'T drop dead... hands it to her brother & says; " Fluffkins was right! This stuff is AMAZING!!!" Brother 2 drinks it.

the kids hear the parent coming: UH-OH! They head for cover & try to lay low. Parent spots the disturbed half empty glass & goes crazy: s/he breaks all the glasses, shatters the table, hacks off the Fluffkins' paws & damages her vocal chords. Then, s'he finds the kids, chastises & blames them & throws them out onto the street to fend for themselves.

Imagine reading a story like this in the paper. Would you worship or emulate such a parent? NO: the police would arrest him or her, subject them to a psych eval & s/he
d be tried (AND CONVICTED AND IMPRISONED) for a slew of heinous crimes. The crime of STUPIDITY might remain unpunished...

If one guy hears voices & sees visions nobody else sees & no one believes in what he sees & says, he's a schizophrenic & we medicate or even institutionalize him.

If others believe him & begin following him around, it becomes a religion.

If astute power hungry people seize upon this budding religion & use it as a tool to induce FEAR in people, get them to give them their money & freedom, convince them to believe it because it is DOGMA & not question it. it becomes institutionalized & enfranchised.

My father said, "Religion started when the 1st liar met the 1st fool."

So... is god NT? In the old testament he's a psychopath. In the new, he's STILL a psychopath BUT with a more appealing spokesman. Spokesman is 'set up' by god & murdered to ransom the descendants of the fruit-eaters & gets replaced with what? PAUL/SAUL: a lying (NEVER had an epiphany & turned himself in for his crime) murderous ( participated in the stoning of STEPHEN!) turn-coat (used to be a zealot persecuted the followers of 1st spokesman) LAWYER!!!!

What the heck kind of a story IS this?!?

I'll stop here.

 

[imagesbyholly]

I agree that we need to be respectful and kind regarding one another's beliefs. I think it is very valuable to be able to discuss our different viewpoints without getting upset or throwing insults. The original topic post is an open ended question regarding what God is like and an aspie's experience with religion and religious feelings.

Soup, I am not interested in debating with your post since that is not the purpose of this thread, but knowing the Bible as I do, I would like to re-write your Mom allegory at the part when she comes home. She calmly walks in and calls, "kids, where are you?" She walks to where she knows they are hiding to see if they will take responsibility. "Why are you hiding, what have you done?" She calmly asks. Kid 2 says, "kid 1, the kid you left me alone with (blame), gave it to me and I drank it." Kid 1 says, Fluffy tricked me into drinking it!" So mom says, "Fluffy, you entice my chidren to do dangerous things. To the kennel with you. Kids, you are no longer allowed in the kitchen because you take things that aren't yours. (I'm going to call the juice wine since you called it cool grown up stuff) Wine will stunt a child's growth and slowly damage your liver, making you succeptible to all kinds of ilnesses later on. Now take your glass of water and go out to the livingroom. You are in time out." It is important for children to learn obedience for obedience's sake since there are many things children simply cannot understand when they are very young, and a habit of obedience helps to keep them safe. I know- I have four. I would bet that there are many things Adam and Eve, for lack of experience and the limitations of their small human brains in comparison to God's, could not understand fully.

All in goodwill! We can agree to disagree. But that doesn't make any of us less sure of what we believe.

 

[Spinning Compass]

If it is true (and I believe it is) that autistic people are more likely to become agnostics or atheists than neurotypicals, then with the rise of autism this is a big challenge those in the churches are gong to have to face sooner or later--and it is not being addressed. I feel one of the biggest problems with the church today is that it is operating under an outdated set of assumptions about people. Most religious education by its nature is geared to neurotypicals and doesn't even begin to touch the questions that may lurk in an autistic child's mind--because nobody bothers to ask what is it like to be autistic or on the spectrum. The thinking seems to be, "they're kids, they aren't capable of asking such things, they really aren't interested." And as long as the child spews out the "right" answers, nobody is going to ask.

I would be interested in knowing whether this issue is specific to a specific religion or family of religions or religion in general. For example, what about Hindu and Buddhist societies? Would autistic people in those societies have the same problems relating to faith or God as they seem to do here in the West?

 

[Soup]

..."In pain & toil shall you bring forth your young...Your desire shall be for your husband (yes...the brain-dead idiot who walked with me, knew me personally, whom I directly instructed NOT to eat from the un-guarded, gorgeous, fragrant tree on pain of death- a consequence entirely alien & unfamiliar to him...) & he shall RULE YOU!" -The Boss of Bosses

- Death in childbirth remained the leading cause of death for young Western women well into the 20thC & remains so in much of the 3rd world. Male domination...well...go look up the statistics on spousal battery, domestic violence, spousal murder in your area. In the U.S.A. today, every 2 rhs, a woman is killed by her male partner. Homicide by the father of the foetus remains the leading cause of death for pregnant Western mothers. THAT is one doozy of a 'time out'. I don't know about anyone else, BUT according to my straight-forward Aspie logic, the only person who ought to e punished for any misdemeanor, felony or other crime is the person who committed it!!!

@ SpinningCompass, that is an interesting question & I haven't read anywhere of it having been seriously addressed anywhere.

" Would autistic people in those societies have the same problems relating to faith or God as they seem to do here in the West?" -S.C.

I wonder too if it would be more of a problem for the family & the surrounding community were Aspies & Auties in non-western cultures to express Atheistic opinions. In some places, it is an automatic prison sentence, possible flogging or even the death penalty! I would imagine a logic-driven Aspie would likely hum a few bars & fake it (shut up & go to mosque, temple or wherever & keep his ideas to himself). For an Autie, this may be a real problem: should he blurt out some anti______ religious opinion, it could be seen as a case of possession or that this is what the family secretly believes. Not good! Here, at least, a person (for now) is free to believe & practice whatever faith appeals to him (or not!). Some will face familial or some social reprisals (try telling your Amish kin that you've decided you think it's all Ballyhoo!)

I don't see it as a problem for in my life any more than not believing in leprechauns, hobgoblins or domovoi is.

 

[smith2267]

part of being aspie is, I think, respecting the viewpoints of others. or maybe it's not caring about them. Is there a difference?

 

[Loomis]

1. I think that the god of the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible for Jewish people) shows both psychopathic & deeply narcissistic traits. He's someone I could neither respect nor even consider worshipping or obeying. Fearsome: yes. He is that BUT not because of divine this or that BUT because he's a violent, explosive murderous vengeful jealous crack-pot!

2. The god of the new testament is an absentee landlord. Jesus, his alleged 'only begotten son' must 'consent' to be tortured, humiliated & murdered before so-called god can 'forgive' a bunch of other people HE created in an vulnerable state THEN permitted them to be decieved by a talking reptile & then punished them for it?

Hello Soup

I believe in God. It is not a choice I have made but a part of my consciousness that accepts this concept. When I was in college I tried to become an atheist. I read Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre, Camus to name a few. Sartre was all the rage in the 1960's and i carried a copy of Being and Nothingness (L'?tre et le n?ant) for the entire year until i gained a thorough and complete understanding of his thought. Well i failed to extinguish God from my mind and accepted that I am a believer. So, what version to choose? Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc.

I thought it weird when people raised in North America would tell me they were Buddhist. Why travel across the world to find a religion in another culture? I am raised in the Western Culture with all its flaws and decided on Christianity. Joseph Campbell, before he died, was asked if he had any regrets; his answer was that he was sorry he did not choose a single mythology and immerse himself in it. I agree with him.

Are there contradictions and weird stuff in the Bible? You bet. But it must be taken in context and understood using reason. I am Episcopalian, the American version of Anglican. After exploring dozens of variations of Christianity I choose Anglicanism because they base their understanding of their faith on three pillars: Scripture, Tradition and Reason. When we read the Bible we understand it in the context it was written. Genesis has its precursor in ancient Sumeria. It was an early attempt by a primitive patriarchal society to understand the formation of the universe.

The book of Job is a masterpiece that begins with Satan and God making a wager. Job's friends tell Job he must have done something evil to deserve the punishment God has given him. Job rejects their council and instead dares to angrily confront God with his rage at the injustice God has rained upon him, a just man. God's answer is not to strike him down for blasphemy but to ask Job Who are you to question me? Did you create this world? Did you put the whales in the sea? And God restores all that Job had lost.

In the Old Testament God makes a covenant with Abraham that his descendants shall become his people. Then God demands that Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac. These verses can be taken at a literal face value or they can be seen, in my thinking more accurately, as the Jewish people's rejection of human sacrifice that was common among their neighboring tribes.

The Jewish people accepted Yahweh as their God and created a society with a system of laws that was much more just and fair then any that preceded them. Christianity is merely an extension of the Jewish legal tradition. Farmers were prohibited from gathering all of their grain. They were required to leave part of their harvest for the poor.

Leviticus 19:

9. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.

Slaves, as well as all free people were to be allowed to rest on the Sabbath and every seventh year was a jubilee year when all debts were forgiven. These were highly progressive ideas for the times and the forgiving of debts is more progressive then our current punitive laws.

There is the Book of Ecclesiastes which I read as a 2500 year old statement of existentialist philosophy. I could go on with many more examples but will close with the extraordinary and brilliant literary masterwork and enchanting offer of comfort in the 23rd Psalm:

The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

My argument is that the Bible contains much wisdom and much to be admired and loved, It just depends upon what you choose to emphasize. The Episcopal Church was one of the first mainline Churches to embrace woman as priests and accept gay and lesbian partnerships as equal to heterosexual unions. They elevated an openly non-celibate gay man as a Bishop. It is our emphasis upon reason that allows us to be progressive and choose what is good and holy in the Bible while rejecting what is archaic and wrong-headed.

 

[Soup]

For those who want to believe, that seems like a more reasoned & balanced approach. So much dogma, absolutism & frankly, horror has dogged the trail of religions (not just the Judeo/Christian ones). They have been used as tools to justify all sorts of nefarious acts. A marriage between religion & reason must require much patience, mutual tolerance (& a really GOOD marital therapist!) in order to make it viable. I remain an avid student of world religions & new religions (albeit now in a non-academic sense) & truly enjoy learning about belief systems & their histories, the role faith or religious practice/ritual plays within the context of evolution (how it serves or impedes survival).

I'm always willing to listen to or debate with others re religious philosophies if they wish to do so. What I find as an Atheist, though, is that religious people often interpret that to mean a 'devil worshipper' (when I don't believe in or give a hoot about either gods or devils) or that I have a hidden agenda to 'convert' religious people to Atheism. Back at the Uni, I simply refrained from ever clearly mentioning to anyone in the dep't what, if any, beliefs I held. I was also very careful about too avidly critiquing any religious belief or system or explain why I'm a non-believer, while my religious fellow students were free to unreservedly champion their faith.

As to the original question, lest we get spanked for daring to veer off topic, NT gets my vote for the god of the 3 Abrahamic faiths.

 

[smith2267]

hey soup. Ever hear of a "bromance", or "man crush", where a man gets infatuated with another man in a non sexual way?
well I totally have an aspie crush on you. I hope that's ok.

 

[Loomis]

Yes God is an NT. I find the evil done by religions as repulsive as you do soup and your atheism is fine with me.

 

[smith2267]

According to Spider Robinson, God is an iron.
9a person who commits felonies is a felon...)

 

[wyverary]

I am a nonbeliever myself (though I hate such labels; I prefer being labelled according to what I do believe rather than what I don't). I was raised Catholic, but I think my deconversion was more a result of my nerdy curiosity than by any sort of rebellious spirit. I had/have an intense love for science, and I had trouble reconciling my religious education with the knowledge that we gained through actual observation, and my off-and-on interest in various mythologies. Simply put: the only reason I don't believe in a god, or anything supernatural, is that I have thus far encountered no reason that I should.

Perhaps our thought patterns and tendency towards reason and logic often result in non-belief, but clearly, that doesn't mean that everyone will come to the same conclusion. That's fine by me.

 

[Soup]

@smith2267 : Aw, Shucks!

@Loomis: I appreciate your open mind! Nice to not have to show up in some form NT of drag even here.

 

[balder]

I could define myself as agnostic, though I can say that, probably because of my family (they're very traditional), the existence of God have occupied my mind during all my life. I've passed a very troubled time these last 2 or 3 years, even considering suicide (only one friend knows about that). It was before I realise what my problem really was, and since I couldn't explain myself why I felt so lonely or incapable of relate to anyone around me, I ended looking for something to blame for that, and it was "God". I do understand myself better now, but I guess the damage is already done. I never accepted well what church had to say, and that time of doubts made me confess to my family I'm not a christian indeed. I've always valued truth, and faking I was ok when I wasn't made me feel very bad when I was there. Only recently I left my family's church for good.

 

[Soup]

Hi Balder,

I was saddened to learn that you had gone through feeling suicidal. I sincerely hope that whatever it was that triggered these feelings has been resolved or that at least you have made peace with it.

It must've taken tremendous courage to tell your traditional & religious family that you didn't share their beliefs. I hope they reacted in a balanced & fair manner & that they are respecting your decision. No longer having to fake it must be a relief to you in some ways.

 

[HelloDizzy]

I believe in God and I believe God is a psychopath.
An entirely objective current of existence. According to the bible, God has all of these traits I'm bolding.
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release

So, no, I don't think He'd qualify as NT.

 

[Tarragon]

This topic is entertaining!

here's my addition.

from what I've seen on people, the world, religions, non-religious philosophy etc ... I'm left wondering this:

Has anyone who is religious, made this decision based 100% on a purely intellectual level?
Or has there always been an emotional content in this decision?

I wonder this because I've gotten the impression religion is based on an emotional response to the meaning of life. philosophy is based on a rational viewpoint. Wisdom is based on rationally approaching emotion!

I think people get religion or philosophy (non religion in other words) but rarely do they reach the third!

ahem, there you go. my thoughts....