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Want to commit suicide any painless ways?

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Markness

Young God
V.I.P Member
I am extremely late to the conversation here… Had to crawl out of my own suicidal cave.

Tony, I am a 40ish-year-old single female without children… A female mammal without children is quite an anomaly indeed to many in this society.

So many have said so much all that I can say is that we who are truly suicidal cannot be saved by a mate or a relationship. Sometimes, we who are so down and lonely and desperate are simply not capable of a relationship where we are in our lives. If we think it through, someone like you or myself, who is so saddened by it all we are ready to die…. Once in a relationship, there is so much up and down and give and take and potential for rejection. Even in a relationship, we would have to deal with these suicidal thoughts as a reaction to the way we experience, pain and hardship and sorrow. If we really think it through to the end, finding a partner, and having it go well, still includes the ever present risk of losing them through life or through death.

If there was any point, I am trying to make, I guess that it is we must be okay with living for ourselves. If we do not have the will to live for ourselves, I think we must find that first. Much love and compassion to you, I am hurting, too, but I find myself in a place to say I think we should fight. I think we should live.
This is something I am struggling with, too. It sucks being chronically lonely but a part of me realizes continuing to do the same things hasn’t been getting me anywhere.
 

Wizardry

New Member
Tony, you need this more than any single person I know: The Importance of Being Single - The School Of Life
"One of the most important preconditions of a good relationship is a satisfactory perspective on being single. The more we are happy to be on our own, the more we will be able to exercise the correct degree of caution around finding a new companion. The bedrock of true love is happy singledom.

Yet our societies do very little to help us to be calm or at ease in our own company. Singledom is framed as an involuntary, depressing and always hopefully temporary state. The notion that someone might want or need to be on their own, perhaps for a long while, terrifies a world shaped by legions of silently miserable couples who need confirmation that they have not chosen the wrong path."
Relationships that are started when both parties are content being single are probably generally better matches, because the relationship is born of a genuine connection rather than just a desire to have a relationship, but do you really think it's reasonable to expect a 45 year-old who has never had a girlfriend, and presumably harboured an overwhelming desire to have one for decades, to be content remaining a 45 year-old who's never had a girlfriend?

People who have never dated despite a long-standing fervent desire to do so generally can't be content being single for a couple of reasons. For one, the precedent set by the amalgamation of their prior experiences is that they can't attract a partner. Not having a partner, and feeling like it is impossible to attract a partner when one wants one so intensely is a recipe for poor mental health. If you want someone who's never or barely dated to be more content not having a partner, they need to be convinced that it is in fact possible for them to find a partner.

Not having had a relationship, and the physically and emotionally intimate experiences and milestones that come with it is also deeply distressing, especially as an aging adult. It's really upsetting to be the anomaly who misses out, and having to interact with the world as a 'have-not' surrounded by 'haves'. I think being unable to attract a partner over a long period of time despite a strong drive can result in trauma, and that trauma has the potential to be stoked whenever one encounters couples or reminders of others' romantic success, because it prompts one to think about one's own desolate love life, and the apparent hopelessness of their predicament.
 

Gerald Wilgus

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Relationships that are started when both parties are content being single are probably generally better matches, because the relationship is born of a genuine connection rather than just a desire to have a relationship, but do you really think it's reasonable to expect a 45 year-old who has never had a girlfriend, and presumably harboured an overwhelming desire to have one for decades, to be content remaining a 45 year-old who's never had a girlfriend?

People who have never dated despite a long-standing fervent desire to do so generally can't be content being single for a couple of reasons. For one, the precedent set by the amalgamation of their prior experiences is that they can't attract a partner. Not having a partner, and feeling like it is impossible to attract a partner when one wants one so intensely is a recipe for poor mental health. If you want someone who's never or barely dated to be more content not having a partner, they need to be convinced that it is in fact possible for them to find a partner.

Not having had a relationship, and the physically and emotionally intimate experiences and milestones that come with it is also deeply distressing, especially as an aging adult. It's really upsetting to be the anomaly who misses out, and having to interact with the world as a 'have-not' surrounded by 'haves'. I think being unable to attract a partner over a long period of time despite a strong drive can result in trauma, and that trauma has the potential to be stoked whenever one encounters couples or reminders of others' romantic success, because it prompts one to think about one's own desolate love life, and the apparent hopelessness of their predicament.
Feeling hopeless is what spurred me to take stock in myself, learn how to be social and start putting myself out to women as anxiety producing as that was. That, in itself, is not sufficient for a relationship, but it is necessary.
 

Eric B

Well-Known Member
Wow; I'm so sorry you felt so distressed as to be asking how to commit suicide!

There are times I feel hopeless like that, but that's such a (obviously) big and drastic move, that will affect those around you (even if they don't show they care), and we don't even know what's on "the other side".

I'm a bit distressed by some of the "tough talk" I see here. Like "frustrated that you can't get it through your thick skull"? And then, you are this, you are that, you are the other etc. "your self imposed loneliness because you lack the courage...". And then another with some generalization about this is how all these autists often respond, with their thinking they were attacked, and wanting everyone to cater to them, etc.
Don't you know that every autist has probably heard all of this 1000 times, and it doesn't bring them any closer to just suddenly "getting" it! This is just venting [admittedly] their own frustration, and not actually helping the person. (and so, it often DOES become legitimate "attacking", because that's what people do when they get frustrated. Don't negate this!)
Basically, the attitude behind tough talk is that the person is just being "illogical", and needs to have "logic" and "reason" drummed into him until it finally "clicks" When it doesn't, then NT's just get frustrated and conclude he "doesn't want help", "this is how they always respond", etc. except that the person themselves will begin contrasting how they used to have some of these problems, but then one day just started to fix themselves. (The looming question; why won't the other person? Must be a "character" issue; even if this term isn't used. But the stuff said, and the whole "tough talk" approach itself seems to presume that).

There is a such thing as "toxic positivity", and it's all driven by a "rugged individualist" culture, which frowns on anyone not as "strong" as we are, and who we think is trying to get some kind of "free ride" in contrast to all the "work" we had to do!

I began having second thoughts about CBT, because I realized it was more of the same; of trying to hit all of our problems with pure reason. But the problem is, they don't stem from reason. The CBT formula I was given, simplified is "if we change our thinking, then this will change our emotions, and then our behavior". So there's an acknowledgment that the problem is centered around the emotions. Thinking is then made the sole determinant of the "good" or "bad" of the situation, which controls everything else. It's the negative thinking that makes it feel so bad, and positive thinking that will make it feel better.
Trying to practice it myself, and then seeing others, including those who preach it loudly themselves (and both secular and religious; it all boils down to this in some way or form), it's never that simple; and then the people begin speaking of this long, endless "process", and many of them ultimately fail themselves. Yet they have preached to others that it's just a simple "choice" (making it sound like flipping a switch), and so there's "no excuse".

To not go down the wrong tangent, the emotions are the problem, and "thinking" alone doesn't make them go away; and no, not even with a "process". That often becomes just an endless loop of suppression, and the problems just come out somewhere else, while you're gritting your teeth and trying to be "positive".

What I wanted to get to with this, is his biggest complaint, of being alone. I went through this too, until 26. And I got all the same counsel from everyone, and no one even knew about autism; as long as I was basically functioning, I was assumed (including by self, as well as everyone else) to be just another NT, who simply needed to recondition my self through "thinking"; and have all this reason and tough talk pounded into me until I finally got it; or be brushed off as "not wanting to change".
I believe we are all driven by instinct. People want to criticize autistic "defenses"; but defense is part of the survival instinct. And I see NT's reaction to them is just as much defense mechanism. That ties into the topic I started awhile back; where we all have the same defenses, but autists are the ones to get tagged with this in a particular way, as if others didn't have them too.

So responses to autists who are "incels" (I mean the original, generic meaning of the term; not the current politicized one that has become framed around a race group) basically boil down to the survival instinct. Women will want men who are likely to be providers and protectors. (there are some feministic types today who will dispute this and claim they don't want this anymore. But This is still not everyone). I even figure, since they are the ones born with the organs to carry and nurse a child (which right there are physically vulnerable spots on the body; the latter even when not nursing a child), this is why our civilizations developed they way they did. Men had to be stronger and do the hunting and defending. We're not like lions, where the mother can leave the cubs and do all the hunting. (and even then, the male is still the overall protector). This is where the whole "Alpha" and "Chad" memes come from.

So someone not "self-confident" enough, and is is "weird", and doesn't fit in, and yet complaining as if they are helpless and not "doing" enough, etc. will seem less safe. I grew up watching the animal shows on TV with my father, and when I became a teenager and now faced these problems, and that was the explanation given; it subconsciously "made sense" with what I had learned about nature. Yet, there still seemed something "unfair" and even "wrong" about it. But when I resisted, then the "frustration" just increased, and nothing was solved. For one thing, while biologically, we may technically still be "animals"; we nevertheless do consider ourselves to have developed "above" them. We hold each other up to moral standards animals do not have, for whom it is almost 100% "instinct". The autistic child is often bitterly scolded for failing in these social things, but then, people as a whole often act just like animals in ways, and then, the autistic child is just taught to "just deal with it", and "become tougher", etc. Plus, the same survial instinct also includes what I call "inertia'. The desire to hold our ground.

But here's the thing: even if I wasn't in sync with nature in that regard, my own natural instinct, of "reproduction" was still in full gear. The same autism that made me so "unfit" in the survival area didn't shut this down. (I often say it should have, and we'd just be asexuals and be able to go about our business!) I could not "think" it away. I couldn't "sublimate" it away (another set of suggestions I had seen sometimes where you try to disperse the "energy" away by other physical means). And it's WORSE for the autist, because the whole cause of the condition is the failure of sensory regulation; and emotions and sexual urges are all ultimately "sensory". And after awhile, they want to be satisfied NOW! People often hurl the term "entitled" or "thinking they are owed" at incels, but this sense of "demanding" is coming from instinctual drives. The same ones the people criticizing the incel or even the successful "Chad" of female pursuee would have similar reactions to, if it was witheld from them somehow.

Yet everyone is coming to the autistic incel with these long "processes" of "growth" and "self-improvement" that are not only years-long, but are really not even guaranteed to be sucessful; judging by watching others try to apply these principles. "Just forget about women/relationships, etc. and focus on yourself, and then it will come". Are you kidding?
Again, this is hitting an uncontrolled emotional instinct with pure reason (and uncertain supposition of a far-off future good, on top of it). Unless the person is already at a place where he is ready for that kind of counsel and can get a grip of things through thinking; you're just going to get the same defensive and even more frustrated responses people are complaining about.
If the person is already this desperate, then cold "tough talk" could very well be the very final straw that pushes him over! (and have we even seen him in almost a month now? I hope he already didn't go and do this!) When I'm feeling at my most hopeless in life, is when it seems all the "tough talking" responses I got in my life are "THE TRUTH". It's like "If this is really the way the universe is; I shouldn't be here!". In fact, much of our "denial" of things is the hope that we're not totally wrong in this regard.
 

Eric B

Well-Known Member
So I can understand the thing about being jealous of couples, and then what he said about the park (which ironically is just a mile from the church I was going to at the very end of my incel days, which seemed to be coming to head, until I suddenly finally found someone). I understand it sounds "crazy" and all. But I think the mistake is looking at it as purely "bad reasoning"; and then trying to fix it with good reasoning. But this does not stem from "reasoning" of any kind. (Which we may say, in theory, but we still then treat it as simply bad reasoning; and from there, hurling out more terms such as "childish", "manipulation", pity party", etc. Even if it might technically be those things; like come on now; the guy is in serious emotional distress!)
This is a limbic, visceral emotion-driven instinct that is totally unsatisfied, and with no fulfillment anywhere in sight; and which listens to no reason. Try throwing that same reason to an angry lion. Or even an out of control pit bull! Someone raped in that park may say some of the same things, and we just realize they have been traumatized, and this is the only way they know how to respond to it right now. Autism may not be the same kind of trauma as rape, but given the emotional oversensitivity, it may have some similar effects). I myself still often struggle with irrational thought, and can actually weigh "this is what it feels like", and that I don't seriously believe that it is so; I'm just venting (whether mentally, or even to someone else), but my thinking this doesn't solve the problem; it just preserves some false calm better for the monent.

So Tony really needs some serious help; with medication likely being the best shot. But people ned to be more patient and not think they can reason or drill this out of him. And let's hope he's getting more help, and is still with us!
 

tree

Blue/Green
Staff member
V.I.P Member
@Eric B
(and have we even seen him in almost a month now?)

Yes.
@Tony Ramirez was last seen about 3 days ago, on Thursday.

Clicking on a person's Profile allows you to view the last time
the person appeared on the forum.

Don't mistake the last time a person posted in a thread for
the last time they visited this site.
 

Eric B

Well-Known Member
OK, great.
(And in light of the state he was in, it's understandable to wonder, and I just hadn't gone searching for him elsewhere yet. Bu thanks!)
 

Lysholm

Member
I have some things to say coming from what I think is a similar background, which was being ignored by women and bitter about it, being unable to justify staying alive, and thinking the only time people were honest was when they said something insulting or disparaging to me. I met and married a great person, so I have some hindsight to share.

Feelings of FOMO and longing never go away, you just move from one thing to another. Say you get a perfect mate, then you'll want a certain car and you can't afford it. Get that and you'll want a certain kind of house that you cannot afford. Etc., etc.; rinse, repeat. You'll always be bitter toward society setting the bar so high while simultaneously keeping you from reaching it. You train your mind to always be on the lookout for all the reasons you aren't good enough, and there is a never ending supply of these reasons.

We all need confirmation that we have some power over our lives and influence upon our surroundings - you (OP) are currently fulfilling that need by being destructive and antisocial. This proves to yourself that you have some power and forces people to acknowledge you...but you've never been in a position to see that normal people take others seriously whether they are friendly or crazy. So being a jerk then being forgiven is a totally unnecessary step in attempting to bond with others - the value to you is likely it gives your brain a reason they won't bond with you. Being rejected for being a jerk feels much better than being rejected for just being yourself. But it's a lie. And don't make "rejection" an assessment of your human worth. It might feel like it, but it isn't. People ignore and push aside others all the time with no value judgement. People are preoccupied or on a mission or just aren't in the mood, plus no one can give every person they come across some of their time.

Steady ass will cure a lot of what ails a man. BUT (and I think this is the most important part of my post) you get so caught up in what you can't have that it obsesses you and all you can see is what you want...not what a potential mate wants. This thwarts success. So when you are at your social events don't walk around selfishly thinking about what you cannot have or what you desperately want to find; instead, really look at those around you and think of what they want from you. The point is not to betray yourself or prostitute your mind to the status quo, but to negotiate with other human beings for mutual friendship and respect. Because that's what relationships are: negotiated expectations, responsibilities, and understanding between human animals for mutual benefit. And you cannot wait to do this until you find someone, as if it would only be worth the trouble when you are happy. You have to do your part first, then others will become accessible.

You won't heal overnight. It's going to take a lot of time and work to unfold yourself from the black hole of despair you're in. But there are no tricks, hacks, or secrets being withheld from you. No PUA strategies, manly lifestyles, or psychological tricks that equal success. You need prolonged dedication and discipline to wrench yourself from that comfy hate-nest you've crafted, THEN you can be attractive to potential mates.
 

Gerald Wilgus

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
OK, great.
(And in light of the state he was in, it's understandable to wonder, and I just hadn't gone searching for him elsewhere yet. Bu thanks!)
Had you looked at some of his posts you may have seen his unremitting bitterness and dislike verging upon hatred of women who do not approach him.
 

Eric B

Well-Known Member
I saw all that, and explained what it's coming from. My point is that you and one or two others are taking offense, it seems, and then firing back these sharp judgments that will accomplish nothing, but just create more bad feelings and defensiveness. When I see that, I just feel his dilemma; getting annoyed certainly isn't going to help him.
 

Gerald Wilgus

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
I saw all that, and explained what it's coming from. My point is that you and one or two others are taking offense, it seems, and then firing back these sharp judgments that will accomplish nothing, but just create more bad feelings and defensiveness. When I see that, I just feel his dilemma; getting annoyed certainly isn't going to help him.
We, despite our neurology, have a choice how to respond to frustrations. When I see a black hole of need, a dumpster fire of naked hatred towards others while maintaining a resistance to learn from his negative behaviors and change, which many here have done, I have few qualms to call out such behavior. He uses autism like a shield to excuse his behavior and I am not buying the crap he is selling.
 

Misery

Photo-Negative
V.I.P Member
It's My Birthday!
I saw all that, and explained what it's coming from. My point is that you and one or two others are taking offense, it seems, and then firing back these sharp judgments that will accomplish nothing, but just create more bad feelings and defensiveness. When I see that, I just feel his dilemma; getting annoyed certainly isn't going to help him.

Honestly it's important to understand the real reason for this.

Quite a bit of the harshness comes specifically from me. In Tony's threads, I'm typically the primary source of it (though I held back heavily in this specific thread, so there isnt much from me in this one). However, this is not a matter of "oh I just get agitated by him". This is a specific decision from the very start based on my own logic. Even when I'm in my usual calm state that I tend to be in when on the forum, I'll still do this.

I make a point, when attempting to assist someone, of tailoring not just my response, but also my tone, to not just the situation, but also the person I'm trying to help.

In Tony's case, the only option is "harsh truth", because the problem is entirely of his own creation. But also, because it's not just a problem: it's a "dark" problem, a problem of excessive negativity that he himself is the sole source of. And until he grasps that, and takes steps to undo it, well... as I've said many times, he will not get what he is after... period. Either he defeats his own hatred , prejudice, and toxicity, or he cannot progress. There are no other possibilities.

And just sugarcoating things and telling the person what THEY want to hear, or trying to keep the tough parts away just to keep them placated... that doesnt help. That does the direct opposite of helping. It'll make things WORSE.

Right now, the only thing to do is to try to put a dent in that dark shroud of his, instead of trying to wave happy bunnies at it. And one reason I know this is because, way back when, I was supremely negative myself (though not quite to that degree). In other words... I've been where he is.

The only thing that finally got through my shroud of general unpleasantness was someone getting spiky with me to finally break through. To MAKE THE POINT... and get me to really, truly SEE it. Everything else just bounced off (including medication, it had no effect whatsoever). Thanks to that spiky approach, my personality essentially reversed. If I can do it... anyone can (probably). But something has to get through to have a chance at it.

And honestly, I aint doing this just to hear myself talk (hear myself type?). I seem to be the main one that keeps pushing regardless of the barbs thrown at me. Every now and then I get a bit irked and will snap a bit (what else would anyone expect with someone named "Misery"?) but that is always brief. I daresay I'm likely the most absurdly stubborn person on the forum, so once I attach to a situation, I dont give up... period. That's why I'm usually in these conversations (but not always, there's the occasional one where I didnt spot the topic appear). And my only goal is to see him finally break through and succeed.

My point here is that harshness and spiky responses are not always a bad thing in this sort of situation... even when emotional distress is present. But also, being calm/soft/polite/whatever, and trying to throw excessive niceness, isnt always a good thing... again, even when emotional disress is present.

And I doubt I'm the only one who has realized these things.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it. I could say more, but it's time for bed, and I'm not in much of a position for a long discussion past this point anyway... new PC arrives tomorrow and my time for the next few days will be taken by that. So I apologize in advance if I either dont reply to anything someone here says at me, or if I take bloody forever to do so.
 
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