Should men on the spectrum follow neurotypical advice for dating women?

[Daniel]

This behavior is not caused merely because of their lack of success with women. The main factor that promotes these behaviors is the social stigma that follows when people don't fit in their expected social roles.

(1) People with lack of success with women are very likely all around the world. Only in the US, because of how this affect their social persona in their teenager years, this is a major cause of incidents like shooting or suicides.

(2) Incidents of these kinds often have mentally ill people as their authors. A consequence of their pathology, is maximizing the "wrongness" of any trait their perceive as wrong. Sometimes we get over-anxious about being in the ridicule, but the reality is most people won't know nor notice because they don't care that much about us.

Oh yeah, those guys were seriously mentally ill. The stigma is bad, but those guys are also felt lonely and unloved. And they blamed their problems on the world being "unfair". But if they could have dealt with their major issue, they wouldn't have acted out so horribly.

Elliot Rodger's suicide note is really disturbing. He was seriously insane, and full of hate. Hating women and the men they loved was his obsession.

 

[Daniel]

Daniel is attempting to dethrone me from my rightful place as the board's textwall machine. This cannot stand.

Daniel is the perfect example of someone who has taken the dating businesses' obfuscated gospel; hook, line and sinker.

Here's a basic summary of what I shared. What specifically is not reasonable advice?

• Don't ignore a woman you're in a relationship with.
• Every woman is unique, but there are some generalities that are good to understand, like confidence is better than insecurity.
• Learning is a matter of trial-and-error.
• You've got to get out there and meet women.
• If you're awkward approaching a woman to start a conversation, keep doing it until it becomes natural for you.
• Appreciate a woman for the unique person she is. Be curious about her and don't just talk about yourself.
• Don't just use formulaic pick-up lines and routines. Focus on her. Be yourself, but don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone and build your confidence.
• Get to know yourself, and be aware of what you're looking for in a partner.
• Women generally don't want to have to tell a man what to do.
• Men need to embrace being active and not passive. Don't be afraid to approach.
• Be mindful of a woman's body language, because there's a lot of non-verbal communication and signals to be aware of.
• A lot of things are a matter of degree and finding the right balance, like not staring too long but not avoiding eye contact either.
• Just because something works one time doesn't mean it will work another time.
• It's about the vibe--how things feel for the woman you're with.
• Some things are turn-ons, some things are turn-offs, but a lot depends on the situation.
• Heterosexual men and women's sexuality are different.
• If you're dating someone, you're better off not coming off as too needy or clingy or available.
• Some ways of asking a woman on a date are better than others--like, if you ask her out, you pick the place, date and time.
• Some kinds of conversation are more attractive than others. Like, it's better to talk about something that feels good as opposed to being negative. Exciting is better than boring.
• Some NT women in relationships with spectrum men complain that he doesn't pay her enough attention.
• It's easier for a woman to sleep with a lot of men than it is for a man to sleep with a lot of women.
• Don't make a woman feel like she is being manipulated. It's a dance, back-and-forth. But you do have a goal in mind.
• Don't sit around and wait for a woman to make moves on you.
• If a woman isn't into you, be mindful of that and move on.
• You're better off not trying to be just friends with a woman if you actually want more.
• Men have to be willing to risk rejection and be clear about their intentions, and be willing to actively approach, ask for the date, and go for the kiss, and not wait for the woman to do these things.
• It's good to start out when you're younger to build your skills.
• Men are not born knowing how to be good with women. They learn it from others.
• Men have twenty times more testosterone than women. Makes a difference.
• An attractive woman can just directly proposition a man for sex and it often works, but it doesn't work if a man tries it.
• Treat women like people and don't put them on a pedestal. Don't assume you're not good enough for her.
• Being attractive is largely a matter of character. Look your best, but your actions are what will make the difference.
• Many women like to feel a man chasing after her.
• If what you're doing isn't working, try something else.
• Don't miss the chance to ask out a woman. You may not get another one.
• Relationships have a different dynamic than early dating, and people tend to present their "best self" on dates.
• If you're married, don't stop initiating sex with your wife.
• If you're married, do things that communicate to your partner that you love her.
• If you're married, and you become withdrawn and distant, your wife may feel unloved and want to leave you.
• If you're at a bar, don't just sit there and do nothing and expect to meet someone. Meanwhile, women can wait for a man to approach them.
• Pick up artists just approach a lot until they a find a woman who is attracted to them and available. They work on being charming, but they also use formulaic patterns that attempt to manipulate female psychology. Most of the time it doesn't work. If you want a successful relationship, you can't fake it.
• Smiling at a woman and showing you find them attractive can initiate their attraction to you. Puts you on her radar.
• Men approach, women filter. Women make the decision to accept or reject.

 

[Daniel]

There's 2 types of "PUA experts". The good looking ones, and the ugly ones that falsify everything. Multiple PUA experts (all unattractive ones) have been caught doing this. The good looking ones have success simply for being good looking, and they all seem to have very good style and present themselves well.

I didn't recommend consulting PUA advice. I suggested dating and relationship advice. There's a big difference. Like the stuff I listed above, which is consistent with a lot of what's been said here.

Yes--it's important to dress and groom well. But it is possible to be good looking and not be successful with women, especially if you've got confidence issues. And since you can't control how good looking your face is compared to other guys, yes, present yourself well. Doesn't hurt to work out, either.

This is also the story of success among guys, it's not so much the "techniques" as it is that talking to 100 women as an attractive guy will have 30 of them interested in a date. The only real kicker is that you cannot be excruciatingly weird, which is why when there are videos of guys that have done 100 approaches with no success, it's quite obvious why. These guys would need to be a hot as balls male model in order to have any success... and even then probably not because women would suspect he's a psycho.

If being excruciatingly weird is a turn-off for women, then behaviour does matter. Indeed, you don't want to be a psycho. Or a loser.

Once you approach, you've got to build a connection. You want her to feel that you're a good guy, and you want her to know how awesome you find her. You've got to build up to getting her number or taking her home. As you say, you can blow it you act stupid, or weird, or gross, or off-putting.

I am not saying there are no things that you can do that will put icing on the cake and make a woman go bonkers over you within 10 minutes of meeting, but it's not so much a specific thing but more of generating a certain vibe or feeling. None of the "experts" explain this correctly, instead making it more of a cold series of actions. It's not necessary for success, however. And the important thing is, if you are not physically attractive to a woman, nothing is going to turn that "no" into a "yes".

Absolutely--it's about generating vibe or feeling. And yes, there are experts out there who explain this correctly, including the two I recommended.

Sure, there are exceptions, but it's generally better to feel good than to feel bad.

That does not mean there are no things that you can do that will improve your attraction, but if there's no attraction it cannot be created (and attraction is based on physical appearance). If you are a good looking billionaire the right behaviour will make you even more attractive, but if your name is George and you are unemployed and live with your parents then the best shot you have is being honest. Great advice: approach an attractive woman and tell her you find her attractive. If she seems interested you say "My name is .... I'm unemployed and I live with my parents".

Your example contradicts your suggestion that women's attraction to men is based only on physical appearance and cannot be created (unless that's not what you meant). In that fictional example, George made that work because he approached directly, had a good opener, and said it confidently--the opposite of what he usually does. And he's not exactly the best-looking guy around. You never know, though--some women are into short, stocky, bald guys. Gotta try your luck!

Look at Henry Kissinger and Aristotle Onassis. Not physically attractive men, but they dated/married beautiful, famous women because they were powerful, charismatic, and charming.

Women are into different kinds of guys. Some go for brainy guys, some go for jocks. You never know until you try. But you're right--looks certainly make a difference!

Female dog shields are also a figment of PUA perception. If a woman finds you attractive, and you are normal and show interest there will be no female dog shield. If she does not find you attractive, but she finds it fun to talk to you then the female dog shield goes away.

All that means, really, is that when you approach a woman and she puts up resistance, don't just cave and walk away. Be confident and play it off in a fun way. Like you say, if she finds it fun to talk to you, the shield goes away. (If not, move on!)

Fecal tests... I am assuming we are not talking about that awful TV dietician. I do not believe I ever ran into one of those. I don't actually think they exist.

Multiple definitions here; your examples are more like "female dog shields". I was referring to something else. Basic principle is that if you're in a relationship, it's better not to just supplicate to a woman if she asks you to do something you find unreasonable, like if she doesn't want you hanging out with your friends--and man, that sh*t happens sometimes. You don't want to come off as weak, and it's all right to stand your ground. She may lose respect for you if you don't. If she's really controlling, you probably don't want to be there (depends on the situation, obviously).

Determine what is acceptable to you, and do that. Do not feel forced to use gimmicky touches or lines or do things in a manner opposite to your nature. Honesty and bluntness works if a woman finds you attractive, in fact it works very well and completely gets rid of all the nonsense.

Confidence! Takes confidence to be honest and blunt. And don't be a phony. Just like the good dating experts recommend.

Yes, being good looking is a big help, but once you've dressed and groomed, it's good to focus on being confident and socially appealing (i.e. having fun), and communicating that you're interested.

(Yep, the text wall is how I roll, too!)

 

[Daniel]

Okay, this is my last post on here because I have other things to think about.

What I like about you people here is that you care about the feelings of others. We're good people!

Like it is for everyone--we've just got to keep trying, and keep loving. And even if we don't have someone, we can love ourselves.

Don't take any advice if it isn't true to who you are. People have to love you for who you are. Just remember--you can try new things.

 

[AloneNotLonely]

Don't know about the rest but I'm not a good person.

First, various of your "rules" are not true. I'm negative and dark, I always ask women to suggest a place to go to unless I have something specific in mind, I am distant and reserved during initial dating but needy, clingy and jealous in a relationship and finally, I am the most available guy in the universe. I also get approached by women sometimes that are interested in dating, so approaching is not even essential (but of course helps). How exactly does this all add up to a guy that isn't completely repulsive to women in your world? If I had girl trouble and asked you how I could get a date then obviously you would say I'm doing those things wrong. Clearly there is another factor here.

It's not contradictory when I say it's 100% looks, because I never said a "yes" based on your appearance can't turn into a "no" if you come across as a creep. I said that it's 100% looks because a "no" based on your appearance will never turn into a "yes" no matter how good... whatever it is that you preach. If you are a good looking guy and you walk up to a woman all sweaty and uncomfortable looking at the ground and you tell her that you are very nervous but found her very attractive and decided to talk to her, chances are pretty good she'll go like "Oh that's so cute!". If she isn't attracted to the guy she will most likely wreck her brain trying to figure out how to get out of that conversation alive. So it's not the line, or the delivery, but the appearance of the guy and how the woman sees him in that regard.

You act as if being excruciatingly weird is the norm, when it isn't. The first time you approach a girl on the streets you are probably going to be pretty weird, but after 1 or 2 of those situations it should immediately go better. And that is the worst possible, most awkward way to approach a girl. There is no whole book of dating education needed, and there is no "building up" to anything. Just be normal and stuff will automatically go forward. Problems start specifically when you tell people what to do, suddenly there's all these expectations and they'll do awkward stuff because "the dating coach said so". If I don't want to kiss a girl on the 10th date, I won't. If I want to kiss a girl on the 1st date (never happens) I will. And I don't really go on dates, I have interrogation missions. I don't have time to "dance", as you put it. If I can get a girl to go out on a second date with me with my behaviour, then any guy that plays nice and talks about kittens and rainbows (Don't get me wrong though... always up for a good conversation about kittens!) should have a super easy time assuming they have the right appearance. It always comes down to that.

The whole Elliot Rodger thing was quite troublesome, though. Not familiar with the details of the other dudes but Elliot Rodger was a story far beyond "OMG he just needed some PUA skill bro". He was extremely sensitive with narcissistic tendencies. People around him (particularly his stepmother) constantly challenged his narcissistic delusions and rubbed them in his face. With his level of sensitivity that was already very devastating to him, but challenging his narcissistic delusions turned it dangerous. His whole sense of worth was based around his fancy car, his wealthy father (until he found out he wasn't so wealthy anymore) and him being half-white and that because of these things he should have been worshipped by beautiful white blonde women and having them beg him to date them. Reality was not as such, and he developed this whole world around where he was the superior man but no woman would date or notice him because they were fundamentally flawed and dated guys he considered inferior so he decided to start killing them. That is like... a whole galaxy removed from "I can't get a date". Elliot Rodger was pretty good looking, and from quite a prestigious background. He wouldn't have needed to do much to date a pretty blonde white girl, but he would've never accepted any form of rejection. Rejection is a part of life, but according to Elliot Rodger he was so superior that no woman should be able to reject them.