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Should men on the spectrum follow neurotypical advice for dating women?

Lundi

Well-Known Member
Following my first thread about myself being a 30 year old male with Asperger's who has always been single plus a virgin, I was recommended a few websites and YouTube channels about dating advice. But I find that the advice seems to be much more geared towards neurotypical men. For example, someone recommended me this YouTube channel by a wing girl named Marni. I am not sure if she is American or Canadian, but it seems like many men in both countries follow her advice:


In this specific video, it is advice about how men should utilise touching as part of flirting as a dating technique. But I find that these techniques are fraught with problems for someone who is autistic or has Asperger's. Flirty touching is like level 11/10 on the difficulty level, because even regular touching like hugs and handshakes already give men on the spectrum problems. What if a man on the spectrum messes up real badly with the touching stuff by mistake, and the woman gets uncomfortable? Or what if even if the woman is neurotypical, but she does not like any touching and this is not known beforehand?

Extending this example to other aspects of dating and relationships where advice is mostly for neurotypical people, I am wondering if it could work also for men on the spectrum.

As an extra detail, my Aspie score is 153/200 and neurotypical score is 50/200. I am not sure if that is "mild" or what. But my skills at nonverbal communication and facial expressions are extremely poor.

So my question is, should men on the spectrum follow dating techniques and advice that seem more suited towards neurotypical men?
 
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That may be true, but I'd go even further and say that certain advice is meant for certain types of individuals and some kinds of people just aren't the type to engage in the flirting you mentioned, along with many other things. It all comes down to what feels natural to you. Forcing a learned dating technique will likely come off awkward and therefore not work.
 
I agree with @Fino. I’m wary of dating advice in general because not everyone works the same way, whether on the spectrum or not.
 
The vast majority of the "dating advice" industry is actively participating in a scam to fleece vulnerable people, statistically mainly men and a significant number who are autistic.

Following the advice of these charlatans means presenting a substantially false version of yourself in order to gain emotional traction with a prospective partner. Once the facade falters the basis of the relationship is undermined and cracks will start to show. I've lived through this, in my younger years. Many of the "techniques" taught are unsavoury manipulation of the "target" - essentially conning someone into sleeping with or going out with you. Not a great start!

The ONLY way to found a long lasting relationship is to be yourself from the start. Where many autistic people fail is in not putting ourselves in situations where we might meet potential partners, by not initiating when we have opportunities, or by being sabotaged by our own anxiety and insecurity when we do.

The only way to get what you want here is perseverance. Be willing to make mistakes and get rejected, but be authentic. To gain confidence and learn what potential partners like about you the old adage of "practice makes perfect" comes to mind.

So no - neurodivergent men should not follow dating advice "experts", but neither should anyone else.
 
Were best off dating women on the spectrum to NTs we come off as clingy or smothering and it puts em off.
 
Were best off dating women on the spectrum to NTs we come off as clingy or smothering and it puts em off.

If someone is clingy or smothering it's just as likely to put off an autistic as an NT. One complaint you often hear about autistic partners is the opposite - that we're emotionally distant and don't display enough affection.

Like most things in life, there's a happy medium, but luckily for those of us who occupy the extremes, there are equal numbers of people who fit in nicely alongside our distinctive needs and personalities. It's finding them that's the challenge for many of us.

One thing I will say though, is that initial communication with a potential partner who is also on the spectrum is likely to be easier so may make it less of an upward struggle to get to know one another.
 
I find formulaic approaches somewhat dehumanizing and manipulative. I think it better to approach people in a way they specifically will appreciate.
 
If two people can get together at all is great. If two on the spectrum get together, it's pretty amazing. But l notice l have to work harder at being my authentic self so that the other doesn't misinterpret my words, thoughts or actions.
 
Following my first thread about myself being a 30 year old male with Asperger's who has always been single plus a virgin, I was recommended a few websites and YouTube channels about dating advice. But I find that the advice seems to be much more geared towards neurotypical men. For example, someone recommended me this YouTube channel by a wing girl named Marni. I am not sure if she is American or Canadian, but it seems like many men in both countries follow her advice:


In this specific video, it is advice about how men should utilise touching as part of flirting as a dating technique. But I find that these techniques are fraught with problems for someone who is autistic or has Asperger's. Flirty touching is like level 11/10 on the difficulty level, because even regular touching like hugs and handshakes already give men on the spectrum problems. What if a man on the spectrum messes up real badly with the touching stuff by mistake, and the woman gets uncomfortable? Or what if even if the woman is neurotypical, but she does not like any touching and this is not known beforehand?

Extending this example to other aspects of dating and relationships where advice is mostly for neurotypical people, I am wondering if it could work also for men on the spectrum.

As an extra detail, my Aspie score is 153/200 and neurotypical score is 50/200. I am not sure if that is "mild" or what. But my skills at nonverbal communication and facial expressions are extremely poor.

So my question is, should men on the spectrum follow dating techniques and advice that seem more suited towards neurotypical men?


What are you actually looking to get out of dating? Much of the advice here, while it could be useful, is generally assuming what you are looking for.
 
That's unfortunate that people follow her advice. A good proportion of it is wrong. As I've listened to what she had to say, much of the time it reads as: To get her to do what you want.

This is highly controlling and manipulative and it in no way considers the other person. Most women don't like being touched by strangers, or people hitting on them. Many women are too shy to even say so. And will simply walk or run away from a person who does this. This 'wing girl' is advising coercive even aggressive techniques that I've read and seen online under the auspices of advice. That continually gets it wrong.

Beyond that, I offer no advice. It's a well-kept secret that women will not actually tell you how to pick them up. As every one is different.
 
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Another thing I find laughable is pickup lines. I’ve encountered many men who tried this on me and at times I almost pity them because it does not work on me at all. In fact, it makes me want to make fun of the people who use them. I usually refrain, unless they’re very persistent, in which case I unleash my impish self.
 
Someone on my other thread recommended her YouTube channel, so I looked at some of the videos. I think that she was on CNN due to her popularity, and she won some yearly wing girl awards. I did not even know that such awards/competitions existed…

That's unfortunate that people follow her advice. A good proportion of it is wrong. As I've listened to what she had to say, much of the time it reads as: To get her to do what you want.

This is highly controlling and manipulative and it in no way considers the other person. Most women don't like being touched by strangers, or people hitting on them. Many women are too shy to even say so. And will simply walk or run away from a person who does this. This 'wing girl' is advising coercive even aggressive techniques that I've read and seen online under the auspices of advice. That continually get it wrong.

Beyond that, I offer no advice. It's a well-kept secret that women will not actually tell you how to pick them up. As every one is different.

A lot of the material is like a foreign language to me. I did hear that part that she said. That also sounded rather odd to me, because that is not how I view dating. It seems like there is perception in NT circles that without touch, there is no attraction. My personal intuition is that there cannot be that many women that believe this. But what I find odd about some of these advice materials is that there seems to be an implication that if a man does not do these techniques, he comes off as being weak or unattractive, i.e. that the women lose interest in him because he failed to do this. Then again, I most likely would not date a woman who believed this.
 
Dating advice in general is just sugarcoated garbage at best and more often just snake oil types so obviously following general NT advice is even more useless, at least someone on the spectrum may have 1st hand experience with what they're talking about.

I don't think two people on the spectrum are very good matches either given the weaknesses the two have, I've thought a lot about this and the truth is most people don't want to date the opposite gender version of themselves. People want somebody more outgoing and functional than themselves. Not to mention the gender ratio on the spectrum is pretty huge, it's just not realistic as a guy but I guess I don't have any better answers.
 
That video is an excellent example of why you should not follow formulaic pick-up advise of the internet, because it's terrible advise. Touching someone's stomach is not "casual", it's a vulnerable zone which will make people uneasy at best. Women are not incompetent children who need to be guided through crowds or stopped from walking in front of traffic, and romantic and sexual touch should be left until you know someone well enough to be sure they'll welcome it and know what they'll like anyway.

So it's not that men on the spectrum shouldn't follow this sort of dating advise, it's that all men shouldn't. There is no magic script to follow that will help you meet women, because we're not a hive mind.

Best thing that you can do is just to work on your self confidence and general social skills, and to treat women like fellow humans not a strange foreign species that you need to learn how to communicate with via youtube. Oh, and don't touch people (men and women) casually unless you are absolutely sure that they will welcome it, many people will not feel able to speak up even if they are extremely uncomfortable with it.

If you are worried about coming across as creepy, then use The Rock Test. Basically if you are concerned that something you are thinking of saying or doing may be creepy or harassing, imagine doing/saying it to Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. If you wouldn't say it to him, don't say it to her.
rs_634x1024-160809113818-634-dwayne-johnson-fast-furious.jpg
 
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Rather than continue the trend of "it's manipulative" or "it's a scam" I'll come up with some actual info.
It's not that there is no "dating advice" that would ever work, attraction has both physical and behavioral factors. The problem is that these are businesses, and after discussing basic psychological aspects you are pretty much done. So they have to obfuscate the matter and act like it's something way more complicated than it actually is, so they can also have a bachelors, masters and doctorate level of "dating education".

The first thing you need to do is determine what is an acceptable level of touching for you, this is pretty much all personal. There's Autistic people that want to hug and go all touchy all the time (if you don't believe me, look at some people from the "Undateables"), so it's not so much a spectrum issue. I am totally freaked out by any touching on bare skin other than hands, and touching too close to my face such as shoulders. So I am not going to touch a woman I barely know in any of those areas, it would be quite hypocritical of me. Plenty of guys are all buddy buddy and will touch people (also guys...) on their shoulders, back or even neck, so they obviously have a different level of standards when it comes to touching. Faking this sort of behavior is just going to lead to a mismatch. I've even had a few women that wanted me to come home with them after a 30 minute conversation where I did not touch them at all, so there goes the theory that it's necessary.

The problem you most likely have is that all of the unspoken stuff are things you have no clue on. When a guy touches me on the shoulder or back (As in "we're buddies") that is a completely different level of touching than when he touches his girlfriend on the shoulders or back (As in "we're more than buddies"). It's not so much the location, but everything else. The same is true for talking, you talk in a different way with your friends than you do to co-workers or your boss. It goes further than just the content of the conversation (although that certainly has something to do with it).

It just takes practice in order to see the difference, plenty of normal guys are completely clueless when it comes to this although being Autistic certainly doesn't help. Recognizing these differences will help you catch yourself being creepy or weird. If you see a guy talking to a woman, it should be obvious whether they are a couple, friends or strangers and if there is weirdness or creepiness coming from either side. When you get good at this you will often catch people talking to you or people around you and a lightbulb just pops up in your head and you go "Ah... I see what you are trying to do there...". I can detect even the slightest hint of interest coming from a woman the moment I meet her, and also interest shown in others. One thing I see a lot is guy likes girl... girl likes guy. But both are too bashful. An issue that would've been easily fixed by just talking.
 
The bit about touching the stomach I found quite odd. Whilst some very extroverted, neurotypical male acquaintances from meetups whom I barely know like to touch way too much, such as going behind other males and putting their arms around their neck or slapping their stomach as a male-to-male friendly type of brotherhood/kinship, doing it to one's date just seems too intrusive to me. I probably am in a place with a very unique (i.e. strange) type of dynamic, where there are a lot of bros and they do stuff like slapping friends on the back and stomach. I really do not like when anyone does that to

I will probably try to fix my social skills instead of watching those videos. My social acuity is quite bad, probably on the level of that of a five year old NT. I do not know based on body language if people are a couple or just friends. I know it sounds ridiculous, but a few years ago for example at a meetup I met a woman and a man who were students from Italy. They said that they were roommates, so I thought that they were a couple. I did not realise anything from their body language that would indicate that they were just friends. Not only until two years after did other meetup members tell me that they were just friends and roommates to split living costs, and that the woman already had a boyfriend and that the man was gay. When I said that I was surprised, people asked me questions like, "Are you blind?" or "How can you not know this stuff?" I asked them both later (which was probably a bit too direct on my part) and they both confirmed what the others had said.

Or when I was fourteen in high school, and one girl kept coming up to me to talk, then one day took my hand and laced fingers with me. I just left my hand there, limp, then after a few seconds she stopped. Friends who saw me later asked me why I did that, I said that I thought that since the weather was cold, she needed something to warm her hands for a few seconds. Then they said, "Are you dense? She likes you!" and I said, "Really, how? She never said so."

The non-verbal cues are lost on me. I usually think that women when talking to me are just being friendly, so I just go with that conclusion. I do not "see" any signs of interest, so I just talk to them as if I am talking to male friends. Of course, I know now that if a woman ever initiates lacing fingers, it probably is not because she needs her hands warmed due to cold weather. But I would not have known that had someone not explained to me why.

True, I do not like formulaic dating strategies, but was just surprised that so many NT's do those things. Just on Saturday night during a meetup, I was talking to two NT male acquaintances. One asked the other about when to text a woman whom he had met. The other told him, "Come on man, you know the rules. Use the 48-hour rule. Wait 48 hours then text!" In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell are these two talking about?"

Maybe there are YouTube videos/tutorials on this non-verbal communication. I mean if they have dating advice, they should. At least I would think so...

Right now I am trying to fix things like my posture and mannerisms. I am trying to get my back straight and learn how to smile properly. I have seen general advice videos about smiling instead of having a blank facial expression. Upon self-reflection, maybe my lack of smiling is not giving a good outward impression to women. Over 95% of photos of my face have me with a blank facial expression because I never learnt how to smile. If I force myself to smile, I make my teeth stick out and end up looking like a clown instead of a natural smiling person.
 
Following my first thread about myself being a 30 year old male with Asperger's who has always been single plus a virgin, I was recommended a few websites and YouTube channels about dating advice. But I find that the advice seems to be much more geared towards neurotypical men. For example, someone recommended me this YouTube channel by a wing girl named Marni. I am not sure if she is American or Canadian, but it seems like many men in both countries follow her advice:

In this specific video, it is advice about how men should utilise touching as part of flirting as a dating technique. But I find that these techniques are fraught with problems for someone who is autistic or has Asperger's. Flirty touching is like level 11/10 on the difficulty level, because even regular touching like hugs and handshakes already give men on the spectrum problems. What if a man on the spectrum messes up real badly with the touching stuff by mistake, and the woman gets uncomfortable? Or what if even if the woman is neurotypical, but she does not like any touching and this is not known beforehand?

It's not that the dating advice is for neurotypical men--it's for men who are interested in neurotypical women. If you can't do/be what NT women expect and need, stick to spectrum women. (Marni knows what she's talking about, but to get the full picture and understand how male-female relationships work, you've got to read her books.) It doesn't matter if you don't like doing something like touching people--it's that women like it when it is done well. When you're pursuing a woman, you getting what you want is dependent on her getting what she wants.

Look at the many threads on here about women who are having trouble dating a spectrum man. Why doesn't he text me? Why don't I hear from him? Doesn't he understand that a woman needs these things? If you're like me, it's not a habit of mine to think like that--gee, I'm going to send someone a nice text to see how they're doing and let them know I'm thinking about them. Things like that just don't occur to me--unless I'm in a situation where I've learned that doing so is a good thing to do. It doesn't matter to a woman whether or not I'm on the spectrum--what matters in the relationship is how I am making her feel. And ignoring a woman makes her feel like you don't care about her.

If you try to touch her and it comes off badly, and if the woman gets uncomfortable, then she'll like you a little bit less, and you'll need to regroup, and do something else to get her feeling happier again. If she doesn't like touching at all, you won't know that until you try it, and you don't know how she'll react. Every woman is different. But enough of them feel good about being touched in the right way at the right time that that's why dating coaches recommend it. And if you mess up, and the woman doesn't want to see you again, then you chalk it up to a lesson learned and move on to the next one.

Whether or not you follow someone else's advice, it's a matter of trial-and-error. You have to be willing to put yourself out there and fail and gradually figure out what works for you. If you don't like casual touching, don't worry about it; there are other ways to communicate.

And this isn't even taking into account what you like in a woman. So if a relationship is really what you want, be willing to put in the effort to get out there and meet women.
 
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That may be true, but I'd go even further and say that certain advice is meant for certain types of individuals and some kinds of people just aren't the type to engage in the flirting you mentioned, along with many other things. It all comes down to what feels natural to you. Forcing a learned dating technique will likely come off awkward and therefore not work.

Yes. Doing this stuff is awkward if it's not natural for you. If it's not natural for you to approach a woman and strike up a conversation, and if you're nervous doing so, it will be awkward when you try it. So--and this is what they recommend--you do it again and again and practice until it becomes more natural for you.
 
I agree with @Fino. I’m wary of dating advice in general because not everyone works the same way, whether on the spectrum or not.

Yes, and this is precisely what dating advice recommends: every woman is different, but what makes her feel good is to be appreciated for the unique person she is.

When you understand that, you can learn how to ask the kinds of questions that get her talking about herself. Some guys don't get this, and they ramble on about themselves.
 
Following the advice of these charlatans means presenting a substantially false version of yourself in order to gain emotional traction with a prospective partner. Once the facade falters the basis of the relationship is undermined and cracks will start to show. I've lived through this, in my younger years. Many of the "techniques" taught are unsavoury manipulation of the "target" - essentially conning someone into sleeping with or going out with you. Not a great start!

That's why it's better to go for advice from experts who focus on dating and not simply "pick up" techniques. If you're looking for a one-night stand, that's what pick-up is for, and indeed, it's manipulation, and that's why they call it "game".

The ONLY way to found a long lasting relationship is to be yourself from the start. Where many autistic people fail is in not putting ourselves in situations where we might meet potential partners, by not initiating when we have opportunities, or by being sabotaged by our own anxiety and insecurity when we do.

Indeed, and that's precisely what dating experts recommend--you've got to be yourself. Canned lines and routines don't work because women can sense when a guy is pulling that, and it's not impressive. (Good dating coaches warn against that.) Getting out there to meet potential mates, approaching and initiating, and overcoming anxiety and insecurity is precisely what dating experts recommend. But if your definition of "yourself" is that you stay home, you don't talk to people, you have no confidence, and you have no moves, then you've got to change those things--start getting out there and building your confidence so these things become you.

The first step in Marni's program is to do an inventory of yourself, so you can be clear on who you are and what you want. Guess what women like? A man who knows who he is and what he wants.

The only way to get what you want here is perseverance. Be willing to make mistakes and get rejected, but be authentic. To gain confidence and learn what potential partners like about you the old adage of "practice makes perfect" comes to mind.

So no - neurodivergent men should not follow dating advice "experts", but neither should anyone else.

And dating experts teach you that you need to keep at it, get out there and make mistakes, handle rejection well, be authentic, and build your confidence through consistent practice. What potential partners will like about you is how it feels to be with you.

One thing that women like about a man is that he knows what he is doing. They don't want to have to tell you what they want. That's why if you don't know what you're doing, you learn from someone who does.
 

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