Should men on the spectrum follow neurotypical advice for dating women?

[Daniel]

That's unfortunate that people follow her advice. A good proportion of it is wrong. As I've listened to what she had to say, much of the time it reads as: To get her to do what you want.

Given that it's the masculine role to lead the interaction, getting her to do what you want is what she wants--provided that what you want is to have a romantic relationship with her (and at first, you're just trying to find that out), and what she wants is to have a romantic relationship with an attractive new prospect.

This is highly controlling and manipulative and it in no way considers the other person. Most women don't like being touched by strangers, or people hitting on them. Many women are too shy to even say so. And will simply walk or run away from a person who does this. This 'wing girl' is advising coercive even aggressive techniques that I've read and seen online under the auspices of advice. That continually get it wrong.

Beyond that, I offer no advice. It's a well-kept secret that women will not actually tell you how to pick them up. As every one is different.

If a man doesn't make moves and "manipulate" the situation wisely, then nothing happens. NT women communicate what they want non-verbally, and they want a man to understand their signals and make moves accordingly. If you just sit there and have a conversation, and you don't do or say anything to turn her on, you'll end up in the "friend zone". NT women do not make moves that carry the risk of rejection. The feminine role is fundamentally passive--they are waiting for a man who can make it happen.

Women don't like being touched by strangers, but if you've initiated a conversation, and she's opened up to you and she's having a good time, and you want to indicate to her that you're interested in her romantically and not just platonically, and she's similarly attracted to you, and you don't do it awkwardly, then women don't mind being touched.

And you've got to be willing to risk her walking away. One attitude that you don't want to have is: I can't go up to her and talk to her, I'm probably bothering her. Then you'll never get anywhere.

If you want to "consider" the other person, know that showing her a good time is indeed considerate. And if she's not interested, she'll let you know, and you can be considerate and back off. Often, she'll communicate this through body language. (I know, yikes, right?)

Yes--women will not tell you what they want, and yes, they are all unique. That's why it's helpful to understand generalities. Here's another one: NT women won't say anything they think makes them look bad. Remember, Fifty Shades of Grey has sold over 125 million copies.

And a lot of the guidance seems illogical and contradictory. Don't call too much or you'll seem to available. But call because she wants you to pay attention to her. Make eye contact and smile, but don't stare too long and make her uncomfortable, and don't smile too much and come off as too eager to please. And something that works with one woman in one situation will often not work with another woman in a different situation.

 

[Daniel]

A lot of the material is like a foreign language to me. I did hear that part that she said. That also sounded rather odd to me, because that is not how I view dating. It seems like there is perception in NT circles that without touch, there is no attraction. My personal intuition is that there cannot be that many women that believe this. But what I find odd about some of these advice materials is that there seems to be an implication that if a man does not do these techniques, he comes off as being weak or unattractive, i.e. that the women lose interest in him because he failed to do this. Then again, I most likely would not date a woman who believed this.

Okay, I'm going to counter some of what you say here, but please understand that I mean this in the most constructive way possible.
How you view dating and your personal intuition have not led to you losing your virginity. When I first learned about dating, it upset me greatly because I didn't want to believe what I was reading. I couldn't believe just how far off my understanding was. Just another of those wonderful differences between spectrumites and NTs that makes life so *interesting*.

Re: "there cannot be that many women that believe this"
Re: "women lose interest in him because he failed to do this... I most likely would not date a woman who believed this."

It's not that women "believe" these things; the processes involved in stimulating sexual urges in women are basically subconscious. It's lizard brain stuff. It's about how she feels.

It's not about any specific "techniques" either. But if you fail to do things that make her feel sexually attracted to you, she will lose interest. And if you do things that are unattractive, she will lose interest. You are trying to maintain a "vibe", and you don't want to kill it.

Some kinds of things are turn-ons and some are turn-offs (and much is situationally dependent). Most men have to figure this stuff out through trial-and-error and experience (and most don't even), but in my case, I had very little experience dating, and once I realized I didn't understand how it worked, I sought out the information.

 

[Daniel]

Best thing that you can do is just to work on your self confidence and general social skills, and to treat women like fellow humans not a strange foreign species that you need to learn how to communicate with via youtube.

Unless you want her to eventually have sex with you. Men and women are not the same. When it comes to sexuality heterosexual men and women have different, complementary roles. If you treat a woman like she's a man towards whom you have no sexual interest, she will not feel that you are sexually interested in her.

If you are worried about coming across as creepy, then use The Rock Test. Basically if you are concerned that something you are thinking of saying or doing may be creepy or harassing, imagine doing/saying it to Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. If you wouldn't say it to him, don't say it to her.

Same thing. This advice is actually for how to avoid sexual harassment in the workplace. If you want to be lovers, you have to treat her differently than you would if you want to be pals.

 

[Daniel]

The non-verbal cues are lost on me. I usually think that women when talking to me are just being friendly, so I just go with that conclusion. I do not "see" any signs of interest, so I just talk to them as if I am talking to male friends. Of course, I know now that if a woman ever initiates lacing fingers, it probably is not because she needs her hands warmed due to cold weather. But I would not have known that had someone not explained to me why.

True, I do not like formulaic dating strategies, but was just surprised that so many NT's do those things. Just on Saturday night during a meetup, I was talking to two NT male acquaintances. One asked the other about when to text a woman whom he had met. The other told him, "Come on man, you know the rules. Use the 48-hour rule. Wait 48 hours then text!" In my mind, I was thinking, "What the hell are these two talking about?"

Maybe there are YouTube videos/tutorials on this non-verbal communication. I mean if they have dating advice, they should. At least I would think so...

Yes, good idea to not start with videos. Those are just snippets of advice that are meant as marketing material to encourage you to buy a book or product. The useful stuff is behind a paywall. How important is it to you to have a woman in your life? Important enough to spend $50 on a book? (By the way, be warned--few books actually cover the whole process that would lead all the way to you losing your virginity.)

The reason I suggested you seek out advice is precisely because of situations you've just described. You didn't know why her taking your hand was a sign that she liked you. But someone explained it to you and now you understand what that was. The materials I've absorbed are basically just much more of that kind of thing.

Women communicate their interest primarily through non-verbal or indirect communication, and I found plenty of advice on the kinds of signals women send. Given that spectrumites aren't great at this sort of thing, this can be quite helpful.

Also, you are correct--your lack of smiling is not giving a good outward impression to women. You'll want to learn about that.

By the way, there's also a lot of conflicting information out there, which is why I found it useful to learn from both male and female coaches, and then compare what they say. For example, about that 48-hour rule, Marni says that's a fallacy. It's more a matter of not coming across as someone who is available to hang out at any time because he has no life.

 

[tducey]

I think those of us on the spectrum should do what makes us feel comfortable when it comes to dating. Having said that being to clingy isn't good either.

 

[Daniel]

Yes, I'm the contrarian who recommended seeking dating advice in the original thread. I don't mind not fitting in here (I'm used to that), and I don't expect anyone here to share my perspective. (By the way, I've been composing these responses over the course of the day, so here they all are.)

I ended up reading a lot of dating advice after my divorce. It became a "special interest" of mine for a while. I was back out on the singles market, and there was a beautiful woman I knew who really liked me. Like, man, she was obvious about it--obvious even to me. But I didn't know what I was doing, and I ignored her signals and the opportunity to make a move, and later when I finally worked up the courage to ask her out, I did it so badly that she blew it off. I didn't know what happened until I bought a book with some basic dating advice, and man--I had done it really badly. And I felt terrible for being so ignorant, and mad that no one had ever explained these things to me.

And even after learning a few things, I still messed up. Things would heat up between us, but I couldn't ask her out in a way that didn't turn her off, and she had to tell me to buzz off. It didn't matter that she liked me--I didn't know how to make the right moves at the right time. And that killed her attraction to me.

I am sharing my perspectives here because I am in much the same situation. It's a challenge to experience the biological sexual urge, but to know that my habits of behaviour are counterproductive to that end. Before I learned about NT mating (and that I was on the spectrum), I was confused and frustrated because I couldn't understand why everyone else seemed to be having relationships and I wasn't. Now, after understanding what's involved in getting yourself into and maintaining a relationship, it doesn't bother me nearly as much. I learned how to accept my limitations, and I understood what I needed to improve.

I've applied some of the concepts I've learned in a few situations, and I was amazed to discover how effective it was. It wasn't a matter of tricking her into liking me, it was just knowing what kinds of conversation to have. She liked me because I was behaving in an attractive manner.

For me, learning these things was important because I had no idea how my behaviour came across to NT people.

Here's one good thing, though... Spectrumites are often unique, interesting people, and have qualities that aren't like other guys. Dating is a social skill; it's much more of an art than a science--which is why any good dating advice won't just be selling you a formula, they will explain general principles that once you understand, you can apply. It's a matter of polishing up your rough edges so they don't get in the way of showing her how interesting you are.

To everyone on here who doesn't like what dating and relationship coaches advise, again, consider all the threads on here where an NT woman is complaining about the difficulties she's having with her spectrum-partner. A lot of the responses tend to be of the sort like, "that's just the way spectrum men are." And often, she doesn't care about that; she just knows she's unhappy.

Well, NT women are the way they are. And it's not just spectrum men who have trouble with them--a lot of men do, because they don't have any clue what they're doing and how women are different from them.

If you're freaked out about someone recommending that a man can express his attraction to a woman by gently touching her hand or arm, then man, you're going to blow a gasket when you learn about the kinds of things that go on in male-female relations.

Ever heard of b*tch shields? That's when you're chatting up a woman, and she says something mean or bitchy to you. Why would she do that? She's testing you to see if you're confident enough to handle her. If you're a spectrum guy who takes things literally, you may think, wow, she doesn't like me and she's mean. But she does it because she's attractive enough that she has so many men approaching her that she needs to weed out the weaklings. Hold your ground, laugh it off, and you've demonstrated your strength.

Ever heard of sh*t tests? That's when you're seeing a woman, and she expresses her discontent with some aspect of your behaviour. If you take her literally and do what she wants, you fail the test. Why? Because now she knows that you're supplicative enough to be pushed around, and she's now the leader of the relationship. And that kills her attraction to you. Tough part is having the judgment to recognize one when you see it, and to have the strength to put up with her being upset with you and not cave in.

Ever see that study where someone surveyed women on Tinder, and found that they considered 80% of men on the site to be "below average" in attractiveness?

Men and women are different. Men are salesmen, and have to find leads, qualify them, persuade, and close. It's a funnel, and only a few of your leads will ever be closed--even if you're a seasoned ladies man. Women are customers, with salesmen approaching them consistently (there are exceptions, obviously), and they filter out the salesmen who are selling snake oil. That's why men who sleep with a lot of women are considered "studs", and women who sleep with a lot of men are considered "sluts". For the man, it takes skill and perseverance, but for a woman, all it takes is willingness and low standards. (I, personally, don't have any negative feelings about a woman with a "high number".)

Humans are such fascinating creatures!

 

[Mia]

Given that it's the masculine role to lead the interaction, getting her to do what you want is what she wants--provided that what you want is to have a romantic relationship with her (and at first, you're just trying to find that out), and what she wants is to have a romantic relationship with an attractive new prospect.

Not necessarily, and I've been in both scenario's many times. Having someone lead the interaction offends me, and is too controlling. It should come about organically in an agreed upon and not manipulative way. And many women I've known and know now don't date for exactly those reasons.

If a man doesn't make moves and "manipulate" the situation wisely, then nothing happens. NT women communicate what they want non-verbally, and they want a man to understand their signals and make moves accordingly. If you just sit there and have a conversation, and you don't do or say anything to turn her on, you'll end up in the "friend zone"

So do aspian women, as well as communicating non-verbally. And, like NT women most want to have a conversation, and very often don't want to be 'turned' on, assuming of course that you understand that. It's far better to begin as friends and get to know the person than become a predator in search of a one-night stand.

NT women do not make moves that carry the risk of rejection. The feminine role is fundamentally passive--they are waiting for a man who can make it happen.

Of course they do, I've seen it happen and experienced it myself. As for the female role in this being passive, you are deluded, they control it all. Rejection or acceptance or something in between. If a man thinks that he's scored it has little to do with his 'moves', a woman has already decided before the interaction is even over.

Yes--women will not tell you what they want, and yes, they are all unique. That's why it's helpful to understand generalities. Here's another one: NT women won't say anything they think makes them look bad. Remember, Fifty Shades of Grey has sold over 125 million copies.

Some women will indicate things at times that make them look good or bad, it's contingent on their experience and on occasion whether they think it might lower the other person's defenses, so they learn more about them.

Fifty shades was a book that men and women were curious about, Don Quixote and Harry Potter sold as many if not more copies. That doesn't mean that the people who read them, went charging about in armor on quests. Or that they all wanted to have their own personal owls. It also doesn't mean that females wanted to experience or liked or disliked what was indicated in fifty shades.

As for the rest of your advice, many women can spot a fake from miles away. And know when they are not genuine. And some are inexperienced, and cannot.

 

[Daniel]

Not necessarily, and I've been in both scenario's many times. Having someone lead the interaction offends me, and is too controlling. It should come about organically in an agreed upon and not manipulative way. And many women I've known and know now don't date for exactly those reasons.

And that's exactly how a woman needs to feel during the interaction. It doesn't feel good to feel like someone is manipulating you. Another skill a man needs to learn to get a woman he wants.

In general, a man can't sit around and wait for a woman to make moves on him. And if she does, he's got to respond in kind.

So do aspian women, as well as communicating non-verbally. And, like NT women most want to have a conversation, and very often don't want to be 'turned' on, assuming of course that you understand that. It's far better to begin as friends and get to know the person than a one-night stand.

If a woman doesn't want to be turned on, then a man needs to notice that and try with someone else. A man who's looking for a woman doesn't know in advance whether or not she's available or willing--he's got to make an effort either way.

Maybe this is a spectrum/NT difference, but being friends with a woman is a bad strategy for a man to pursue if he's actually interested in her romantically. That's manipulative and fake.

That being said, I was best friends with my ex-wife, who was my housemate, for a year before we got together. (We weren't attracted to each other at first.) If that's the way spectrum women work, really, I'd love to meet one.

Of course they do, I've seen it happen. As for the female role in this being passive, you are deluded, they control it all. Rejection or acceptance. If a man thinks that he's scored it has little to do with his 'moves', because a woman has already decided before the interaction is even over.

Sure, I overstated that. It's just that men have to carry more of the risk of rejection for exactly the reason that you cite--typically, women are in control, and make the decision to reject or accept. "Moves" are actions--what he says, how he says it, how he carries himself, what he does. A man needs to understand that he has to do things in order to earn a woman's attraction and gain her acceptance. That's what "active" means as opposed to "passive". Even the most handsome guy can blow it if he does something stupid. It's helpful for man to consider himself taking the active role in approaching, in asking for the date/phone number, and going for the kiss. It's weak (and passive) if he waits around for a woman to act.

If you were to consider how many times women ask men out on dates compared to the number of times men ask women out on dates, which number would be higher? "Asking out" is active, "being asked out" is passive. That's all that means--it's not a value judgment.

Some NT women will indicate things at times that make them look good or bad, it's contingent on their state of mind, and whether they think it might lower the other person's defenses, so they learn more about them.

Fifty shades was a book that men and women were curious about, Don Quixote and Harry Potter sold as many if not more copies. That doesn't mean that the people who read them, went charging about in armor on quests. Or that they all wanted to have their own personal owls. It also doesn't mean that females wanted to experience or liked or disliked what was indicated in fifty shades.

This is kind of my point--for whatever reason, women don't want to admit that something like Fifty Shades would be appealing. Romance novels follow a very predictable formula--what else is appealing about that story? It wasn't guys who wanted to read the story of a sweet, innocent girl BDSM'd up by a handsome billionaire.

As for the rest of your advice, many women can spot a fake from miles away. And know when they are not genuine. And some are inexperienced, and cannot.

Indeed! That's one of the things that makes getting started challenging for men with weak social skills--you have to fake it until you make it, so you've got to be willing to endure rejection. It's easier to get started when you're young, like in junior high or high school, so the experience balance isn't so skewed.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Unless you want her to eventually have sex with you. Men and women are not the same. When it comes to sexuality heterosexual men and women have different, complementary roles. If you treat a woman like she's a man towards whom you have no sexual interest, she will not feel that you are sexually interested in her.

I didn't say treat a woman as if she were a man, I said treat her as if she were a human. Do you not consider women you are attracted to to be human?

Same thing. This advice is actually for how to avoid sexual harassment in the workplace. If you want to be lovers, you have to treat her differently than you would if you want to be pals.

Sure, this is the point where imagination comes in. If you were attracted to The Rock and want to start a relationship, how would you behave? Presumably with respect, with careful consideration of consent etc. Considering how you would behave if the woman you were attracted to was bigger and stronger than you can help you figure out whether your behaviour is respectful and socially acceptable. You could also imagine how you would feel if it was The Rock hitting on you, because the reality for women is that many men are larger and stronger and a potential threat.

 

[Mia]

And that's exactly how a woman needs to feel during the interaction. It doesn't feel good to feel like someone is manipulating you. Another skill a man needs to learn to get a woman he wants.
In general, a man can't sit around and wait for a woman to make moves on him. And if she does, he's got to respond in kind.

This sounds very predatory. And if the woman or man figures it out, they'll be hurt by it. And likely end the relationship. It's not a question of 'moves' and if your talking about being together for sex only, it will not last for very long. It never does. There will be a history of manipulative conquests, enacted by someone who needs to be in control out of insecurity. This damages both people in the relationship. And these sorts of interactions end up being empty and pointless. People who manage these end up being alone. Better to work at building a healthy relationship.

A man needs to understand that he has to do things in order to earn a woman's attraction and gain her acceptance. That's what "active" means as opposed to "passive". Even the most handsome guy can blow it if he does something stupid. It's helpful for man to consider himself taking the active role in approaching, in asking for the date/phone number, and going for the kiss. It's weak (and passive) if he waits around for a woman to act.

So do women take active roles, and are less passive than you seem to consider. Yes there is interaction, but the response is telling. Whether 'she's not into you' is another thing that aggression cannot change. It's not active or passive, there's quite a lot in between. You cannot make someone want you.

It wasn't guys who wanted to read the story of a sweet, innocent girl BDSM'd up by a handsome billionaire.

There happened to be a run on grey ties afterward, bought by men. And the female protagonist had all the internal awareness of a teenage girl. It was lolita or twilight all over again with bdsm thrown into the mix.

That's one of the things that makes getting started challenging for men with weak social skills--you have to fake it until you make it, so you've got to be willing to endure rejection.

That I understand, females socialize quite early, often they learn protective skills from their mothers and grandmothers and friends. Some males learn them, but they are social skills not predatory ones. Maybe that's how we differ.

 

[Daniel]

I didn't say treat a woman as if she were a man, I said treat her as if she were a human. Do you not consider women you are attracted to to be human?

"Treat women like fellow humans not a strange foreign species that you need to learn how to communicate with via youtube."

Talking heterosexuality here... To a human heterosexual man, human heterosexual women are the opposite, complementary half of the species, with a sexuality and psychology that doesn't work the same way as a man's. A man's mind operates differently than a woman's mind. In all practicality, women are a different species--not any less human, just different.

Here's something about heterosexual men that you may not know. Men are not born knowing how to succeed at sexuality with women. They have to learn it, by observing or communicating with male role models in their lives, and then going through trial-and-error. This is why dating coaches are able to make a living at their work. That's how many men need help with this kind of thing.

And that's not because gender is "socially constructed"--you're a different person when you've got twenty times more testosterone flowing through your system. There's a great article I read somewhere where trans-men talked about their experiences after going through hormone therapy. One said he found that he couldn't help staring at women's butts and breasts, and it wasn't like that pre-hormones. He also found that, compared to before, he was unable to identify what emotions he was experiencing when they came on strong.

There was a study where they sent an attractive female college student and an attractive male college student out to approach members of the opposite sex, and had them use the same approach, where they just came right out and asked, "would you like to have sex with me?" Practically all the men said yes, and all the women said no. Male and female sexuality operate differently.

One good point you make--as a man, you have to treat attractive women as if they are just human beings, and not goddesses you put on a pedestal and worship.

Sure, this is the point where imagination comes in. If you were attracted to The Rock and want to start a relationship, how would you behave? Presumably with respect, with careful consideration of consent etc. Considering how you would behave if the woman you were attracted to was bigger and stronger than you can help you figure out whether your behaviour is respectful and socially acceptable. You could also imagine how you would feel if it was The Rock hitting on you, because the reality for women is that many men are larger and stronger and a potential threat.

You know, it's funny you mention that--Terry Crews, who is at least as big and strong as The Rock, was at a Hollywood function and some gay guy came up to him and grabbed his genitals. I knew a gay guy (a waiter at a coffee house I frequented) who did the same thing to a guy at a club, and the guy smashed a beer bottle in his face. That's a real-life application of the Rock Test. The gay guy made the news, claiming he was gay-bashed, but basically, he committed sexual assault and was retaliated against. If a man grabbed a woman by the crotch, and she smashed a beer bottle in his face, she'd rightly be considered a hero.

I'm hetero, and once I was hanging out with a gay dude, and he just came right out with it--"you wanna bump uglies?" Had I been gay, and was looking to get some, I could have just said, "sure", and that's all it would have taken. It's that simple.

It's not that these guys need help being respectful and socially acceptable (though some do). They need help learning how to be attractive to women, and that's largely a matter of character, which includes being respectful or socially acceptable. Being respectful and socially acceptable is necessary, but not sufficient.

Learning how to be attractive to and successful with women would have prevented George Sodini, Elliot Rodger, and Alek Minassian from going on their murder rampages.

 

[Daniel]

This sounds very predatory. And if the woman or man figures it out, they'll be hurt by it. And likely end the relationship. It's not a question of 'moves' and if your talking about being together for sex only, it will not last for very long. It never does. There will be a history of manipulative conquests, enacted by someone who needs to be in control out of insecurity. This damages both people in the relationship. And these sorts of interactions end up being empty and pointless. People who manage these end up being alone. Better to work at building a healthy relationship.

Ever heard of a woman playing "hard to get"? Where she likes the guy, but doesn't give in right away, because she wants the guy to chase after her?

For a man to get into a relationship in the first place, if what he's been doing hasn't been working, he's got to do something else.

When I was in university, numerous times I would be having a fine time conversing with a woman, and I'd leave afterwards thinking, oh gee, that was nice, I like her and she seemed to like me, too. Maybe the next time I see her I'll ask her out. And the next time I saw her, she'd walk away. Later I figured out what was going on. She was hoping for me to ask her out during that lingering, silent moment at the end of our initial conversation. When I didn't, she took that to mean I was rejecting her. There was a right time to "make the move" to ask her out, and time and time again, I would miss it. When I talk about "making moves", that's the kind of thing I mean.

These are the kinds of things that clueless men need to learn about.

And yes, relationships go through stages. It's different at first, in the infatuation stage. It takes a long time to get to know someone. A lot of couples have challenges when they move in together, because they get to see the other in a more honest light, and not simply the "best behaviour" that they put forward on a date. I'm not disagreeing with you about relationships.

One of the many reasons my marriage broke up was because I was going through some issues and I stopped initiating sex with my wife. She didn't like that she was the one who had to make the move to get it going. She felt unloved and unappreciated.

"Moves" are behaviour. Sometimes I'd buy my wife flowers for no reason. She loved that. That was a move on my part. Sometimes she'd surprise me with a fancy dinner. That was a move on her part. Later on, when it was falling apart, we'd just be sitting there, watching TV, her on her phone, me on my computer, and there were no "moves" between us. I still loved her, but because I stopped expressing it by doing behaviours that demonstrated my love for her, she stopped feeling love for me. I took her for granted, because I didn't think I had to keep doing anything for her to keep her interested. I thought she just loved me for "who I am", and that me being me was enough. It wasn't. So she left.

So do women take active roles, and are less passive than you seem to consider. Yes there is interaction, but the response is telling. Whether 'she's not into you' is another thing that aggression cannot change. It's not active or passive, there's quite a lot in between. You cannot make someone want you.

Ever hear a woman complain, "I don't want to have to tell him what I want him to do, I want him to know what I want him to do and do it"? It's stuff like this I'm talking about. For her to tell him what to do would be making an "active" move compared to the "passive" move of waiting for him to do something without having to do anything to get him to do it. This is why you'll hear men complain, "I'm not a mind reader!"

Say there are two guys at a bar. One of them sits at the bar, and thinks, I'm going to passively sit here and wait for a woman to come up to me and start talking. The other guy thinks, I'm looking to meet someone tonight, so I'm going to be aware of the room, and if I spot a woman I want to meet, I'm going to make eye contact, smile, and walk right up to her and start talking. And if it doesn't go anywhere, I'm going to move on and do the same thing with someone else. Which guy is going to more successful at meeting a woman?

Yes, a woman can do active behaviours to get a guy to notice her, and often do, but she can also just wait for a man to approach her. Men, generally, don't have that option. This is why it's important for a man to think "active" and not "passive", and not wait for a relationship to "just happen".

After my divorce, I knew this very attractive woman, and she really liked me. She had excellent social skills, and she was very obviously flirting with me. But I messed up asking her out, and she blew it off. And it happened a few more times--she'd flirt, I'd mess it up. She already wanted me, but I turned her off with my bad moves.

These are the kinds of things that men need to fix about their behaviour if they're not having any success.

As far as "making someone want you" goes--actually, you can. That's why there are successful pick-up artists. It's not that they can make anyone want them, it's that they keep trying until they find someone who does respond to their charms. It doesn't lead to long-term relationships (though it can, if you that's what you're seeking), and it's manipulative, but it works.

There indeed is such a thing as attractive behaviours and unattractive behaviours. Reminds me of that episode of Friends where Joey asks Ross and Chandler what they do that repels women.

There was a woman I worked with to whom I hadn't paid much attention. One day she was dressed up, with her hair and make up done, and she looked particularly pretty, and I found myself staring at her in admiration. She caught my gaze and smiled, and I smiled back. After that, her behaviour around me changed, and she'd make efforts to be close to me. I didn't even intend to, but technically, I made that attraction happen by communicating my interest. I don't know how she felt about me before that, but I sure noticed a change in her behaviour.

There happened to be a run on grey ties afterward, bought by men. And the female protagonist had all the internal awareness of a teenage girl. It was lolita or twilight all over again with bdsm thrown into the mix.

Yes, men did that because they observed how into that book women were, and they wanted to be like that (fictional) guy who had what women wanted. Men are kind of dumb that way. I knew a guy who wanted to buy Axe body spray because he saw a commercial that portrayed it as making a man more attractive. He didn't even know what it smelled like.

That I understand, females socialize quite early, often they learn protective skills from their mothers and grandmothers and friends. Some males learn them, but they are social skills not predatory ones. Maybe that's how we differ.

You may dismiss men pursuing women as "predatory" behaviour, but that's the way it goes. When I was in high school, some of my friends staged a mini-intervention and asked me why I don't go after girls. That's what men have to do--they have to go after women.

Men approach, women filter. As you said, women are the ones in control.

 

[Trophonius]

Learning how to be attractive to and successful with women would have prevented George Sodini, Elliot Rodger, and Alek Minassian from going on their murder rampages.

This behavior is not caused merely because of their lack of success with women. The main factor that promotes these behaviors is the social stigma that follows when people don't fit in their expected social roles.

(1) People with lack of success with women are very likely all around the world. Only in the US, because of how this affect their social persona in their teenager years, this is a major cause of incidents like shooting or suicides.

(2) Incidents of these kinds often have mentally ill people as their authors. A consequence of their pathology, is maximizing the "wrongness" of any trait their perceive as wrong. Sometimes we get over-anxious about being in the ridicule, but the reality is most people won't know nor notice because they don't care that much about us.

 

[Lundi]

I definitely do not want to use one-liners or appear artificial. I live in a place where there are a more-than-average percentage of men on the spectrum, plus who are nerdy, due to this being the IT capital of the world. In contrast, most of the women are not on the spectrum, and do not work in tech or science. So the men and women here seem to not understand each other at all, sometimes even avoid each other, with each gender staying within their own groups. If anyone here is from San Francisco Bay Area, you probably know exactly what I am talking about.

I see almost each time I go to meetups, some man, who is more than likely on the spectrum, tries a one-liner or tries to pretend to be alpha male, and it just looks weird. Even someone like I, who usually cannot tell if something looks weird or not, I can see that when these men try these formulaic techniques it looks very awkward. usually the woman ends up leaving or trying to avoid these men.

I have low dating experience, since I only even started trying in my mid/late twenties. I guess that that was the price I paid for studying too much. My 30th birthday is in less than one month, so it is extremely likely I turn 30 being single. I would have to go slow learning this dating stuff anyway. I never knew I had so much to work on. I mean I still have to learn how to smile properly...

 

[Mia]

Ever heard of a woman playing "hard to get"? Where she likes the guy, but doesn't give in right away, because she wants the guy to chase after her?
For a man to get into a relationship in the first place, if what he's been doing hasn't been working, he's got to do something else.

These are high school games that people play, both male and female. If the relationship has not moved forward, there's very little you can do or say to change that.

And the next time I saw her, she'd walk away. Later I figured out what was going on. She was hoping for me to ask her out during that lingering, silent moment at the end of our initial conversation.

Not really, the alternative is that the conversation helped her to decide that she was not interested. Which seems more logical to me from a female perspective.

NT mating

This is often a load of lies, it's an entire industry, which I've mentioned before. It's snake oil sales giving people hope rather that going out there and actually meeting people and getting to know them. There are no right ways and being turned down or ignored is part of it. Being hurt is part of it.

Sometimes I'd buy my wife flowers for no reason. She loved that. That was a move on my part. Sometimes she'd surprise me with a fancy dinner. That was a move on her part. Later on, when it was falling apart, we'd just be sitting there, watching TV, her on her phone, me on my computer, and there were no "moves" between us. I still loved her, but

I'm sorry that you lost someone, have you eventually understood that it takes two people to make a marriage fall apart? To stop working at it. The considerations of one for the other, have to be less shallow, less commercial. The everyday things that people do for one another are more about love than buying flowers or a dinner. Those are the real things, that should be paid attention to. Not the advertised things. If the other person values them, but does not understand the 'real stuff' then you will have a superficial union. Marriages go through changes and difficulties, and the people in them mature. Perhaps this was the wrong person to find that with.

As far as "making someone want you" goes--actually, you can. That's why there are successful pick-up artists. It's not that they can make anyone want them, it's that they keep trying until they find someone who does respond to their charms. It doesn't lead to long-term relationships (though it can, if you that's what you're seeking), and it's manipulative, but it works.

Do you know what happens to old pick up artists? They buy brides from foreign countries that they can dominate and control. And it usually ends very badly. They hurt people because they are hurt themselves. They often end up alone, as pick-up artists don't really want love or involvement with others, like women who do similar things. It's a very empty life. And the people involved in it, don't think they deserve to be cared about. It's okay to want more than that.

 

[AloneNotLonely]

Daniel is attempting to dethrone me from my rightful place as the board's textwall machine. This cannot stand.

Daniel is the perfect example of someone who has taken the dating businesses' obfuscated gospel; hook, line and sinker.

There's 2 types of "PUA experts". The good looking ones, and the ugly ones that falsify everything. Multiple PUA experts (all unattractive ones) have been caught doing this. The good looking ones have success simply for being good looking, and they all seem to have very good style and present themselves well. Many of these guys were shy and dense and either never really met many women, didn't dress or present (by this I do not mean behaviour, but grooming/etc) themselves appropriately or simply didn't notice the women that were interested. Then they started dressing well and approaching women and boom success. This is also the story of success among guys, it's not so much the "techniques" as it is that talking to 100 women as an attractive guy will have 30 of them interested in a date. The only real kicker is that you cannot be excruciatingly weird, which is why when there are videos of guys that have done 100 approaches with no success, it's quite obvious why. These guys would need to be a hot as balls male model in order to have any success... and even then probably not because women would suspect he's a psycho.

I am not saying there are no things that you can do that will put icing on the cake and make a woman go bonkers over you within 10 minutes of meeting, but it's not so much a specific thing but more of generating a certain vibe or feeling. None of the "experts" explain this correctly, instead making it more of a cold series of actions. It's not necessary for success, however. And the important thing is, if you are not physically attractive to a woman, nothing is going to turn that "no" into a "yes".

When the woman is in "No" mode, that is what they call the friendzone. It has nothing to do with your actions. Nothing. It's 100% based on physical attraction. I have had women that I was friends with for years with me acting like a castrated gay friend, only to have them start with strange things like touching my hair all of a sudden and confessing that they love me. I've even gotten rejected by a woman that said she liked me as a friend... only to have her turn around a year later and ask me if I wanted to have sex. I wasn't being a PUA god that got out of the friendzone, but she clearly had other reservations that I can only speculate about that suddenly got resolved and it's a rare situation where "pushing" would actually achieve something. The thing is, if you start escalating with a women towards sex, you are going to filter out all the "No"s immediately and the ones that stick around are up for it. Which will lead to where your only relationships with women are going to be based around sex. Some guys are going to like that, but I prefer not throwing stones from a glass house when I don't need to.

That does not mean there are no things that you can do that will improve your attraction, but if there's no attraction it cannot be created (and attraction is based on physical appearance). If you are a good looking billionaire the right behaviour will make you even more attractive, but if your name is George and you are unemployed and live with your parents then the best shot you have is being honest. Great advice: approach an attractive woman and tell her you find her attractive. If she seems interested you say "My name is .... I'm unemployed and I live with my parents". That is the best pickup line there is. Please do not use it too much, because I still use it for shitz n giggles. It's something to be used occasionally, when your day has not had enough zaniness. Knowledge and love of Seinfeld is mandatory.

Female dog shields are also a figment of PUA perception. If a woman finds you attractive, and you are normal and show interest there will be no female dog shield. If she does not find you attractive, but she finds it fun to talk to you then the female dog shield goes away. Perhaps you are in the twilight zone of attraction and being a really cool guy to talk to is enough to push you over the edge, but an ONS is probably all that's in the cards. There is actually no such thing as a female dog shield. I have a female dog shield when it comes to homeless bums asking for money. Anyone with such an appearance gets the full taste of my female dog shield, but if I notice one do something extremely awesome rather than ask me for money then my female dog shield would also disappear (although I would make sure no touching would be possible, I have a severe case of germophobia). Female dog shield just means "I am not interested in talking to you unless".

Fecal tests... I am assuming we are not talking about that awful TV dietician. I do not believe I ever ran into one of those. I don't actually think they exist. I actually had to look them up and found the following:

• “Sorry, I don’t sleep with guys under 6 foot.”

When exactly did I say I wanted to sleep with you?

• “You have moobs.”

That is so rude. You have awesome breasts but I don't just blurt that out.

• “You must have a really small dick.”

Well you just ruined your chances of confirming that theory.

• “You’re balding.”

Tomorrow I can buy rogaine and have my hair back, but you will be stupid forever. (Courtesy of the Sopranos).

Did I pass? I don't care. Stupid remarks require stupid answers.

Determine what is acceptable to you, and do that. Do not feel forced to use gimmicky touches or lines or do things in a manner opposite to your nature. Honesty and bluntness works if a woman finds you attractive, in fact it works very well and completely gets rid of all the nonsense.

 

[righan]

So, lots of great things to already said here and I'm not sure anything I have to say is really needed, but I do have some experience with this so lets see how it goes.

I've been in several romantic relationships in my teens and early twenties, then been in a happy long term relationship for 19 years, and have observed several other people in relationships.

I think first, 'success' in a relationship depends on what you want. Often the first mistake everyone makes is the assumption that when you talk about dating you are always talking about the same thing with the same goal. I've seen many people get hurt simply because they assumed that the other person had the same goal and definition of dating as they did and when it became obvious they were on a different page they got hurt.

Different strategies and tactics and techniques are good for different goals. The tactics in that video, if they work, are not the kind of thing that leads to a healthy long term relationship or marriage. However, they might be good if your just trying to get laid. Of course, that comes with a huge risk since the woman your with may not be looking to get laid, she might be there for something long term and then your tactics are pretty likely to fail. In observing, I've seen that most men just looking to get laid fail 90% of the time and usually hurt peoples feelings in the process, but the men keep doing it because it works 10% of the time. Its the telemarketing form of dating.

If you want a long term relationship, then your better off just going into a relationship by being yourself and being honest and not trying to make it be anything specific. Just let it be whatever it becomes. Even if you are looking for a long term relationship, you can't make anyone be that for you.

If you want formulas and rules and techniques to make relationships more successful, I wouldn't look at dating advice, but at communication and conflict resolution skills. Even for NT's the biggest problem and difficulty in an honest honest relationship is failure to communicate and work through problems together. Its worse for people with ASD.

Overall, I've found that the better I got at using communication and conflict resolution skills the more successful I was in my relationships.

That said ... I still have huge issues when it comes to sex. I have never been very good with initiating sex and/or being able to tell when my partner is interested in it either. Even a female who is being very flirty may not be looking for sex but just trying to get attention. Since I can't tell when a woman is interested in sex unless she says something, and I never want to make a woman feel uncomfortable or violated by mistake, I have missed and continue to miss many opportunities to have sex. Its a very frustrating thing.

When it comes to sex, I have typically had more sex in relationships with highly sexually dominant/aggressive women who are happy to openly express their interest and/or take charge and make it happen. Otherwise, I have never found a real solution to this problem. The best I've gotten is to just talk to my partner about it. Be honest about not being able to tell when she wants sex and let her know that I am interested. This is another communication issue, because many women have interpreted me trying to respect them as me being uninterested in them and they get their feelings hurt. In relationships, every action or inaction is a form of communication, and your partner may be getting something from your behavior that isn't what you mean.

 

[Bolletje]

@Mia I've been meaning to respond to this topic but I don't have to, because you're hitting all the right notes. I'm audibly cheering you on here! Huzzah!

 

[Daniel]

So the men and women here seem to not understand each other at all, sometimes even avoid each other, with each gender staying within their own groups. If anyone here is from San Francisco Bay Area, you probably know exactly what I am talking about.

That's funny--they had that happen on an episode of Silicon Valley.

I see almost each time I go to meetups, some man, who is more than likely on the spectrum, tries a one-liner or tries to pretend to be alpha male, and it just looks weird. Even someone like I, who usually cannot tell if something looks weird or not, I can see that when these men try these formulaic techniques it looks very awkward. usually the woman ends up leaving or trying to avoid these men.

Absolutely right--being phony is a turn-off. One bad thing about PUA lines is different guys trying the same cliched lines over and over again, and the woman has heard it before.

I have low dating experience, since I only even started trying in my mid/late twenties. I guess that that was the price I paid for studying too much. My 30th birthday is in less than one month, so it is extremely likely I turn 30 being single. I would have to go slow learning this dating stuff anyway. I never knew I had so much to work on. I mean I still have to learn how to smile properly...

Good for you! Have lots of fun.

 

[Daniel]

These are high school games that people play, both male and female. If the relationship has not moved forward, there's very little you can do or say to change that.

Agreed. I don't like that kind of thing either. She's got to meet me halfway.

Not really, the alternative is that the conversation helped her to decide that she was not interested. Which seems more logical to me from a female perspective.

That could be, but you weren't there. I started recognizing the pattern. I was too busy second-guessing myself to make a move.

This is often a load of lies, it's an entire industry, which I've mentioned before. It's snake oil sales giving people hope rather that going out there and actually meeting people and getting to know them. There are no right ways and being turned down or ignored is part of it. Being hurt is part of it.

The good dating and relationship coaches, not the pick-up artist people, say exactly this. You go out, you meet people, you get to know them, you risk being rejected, and if your fear of getting rejected is holding you back, you tell yourself a different story and you make yourself do it.

A lot of it is learning what not to do.

I'm sorry that you lost someone, have you eventually understood that it takes two people to make a marriage fall apart? To stop working at it. The considerations of one for the other, have to be less shallow, less commercial. The everyday things that people do for one another are more about love than buying flowers or a dinner. Those are the real things, that should be paid attention to. Not the advertised things. If the other person values them, but does not understand the 'real stuff' then you will have a superficial union. Marriages go through changes and difficulties, and the people in them mature. Perhaps this was the wrong person to find that with.

I agree with you about marriages--they are complex, and there are lots of factors that go into making it work. But again, you weren't there. There was a lot more to it than just flowers and dinners. And there were indeed mutual factors that drove us apart. But I am very aware of the specific things I did that hurt her, and drove us apart--she told me. I didn't want it to end. She did.

All I'm saying is that behaviour matters. Some behaviours kill love, and some communicate love. I had to learn things the hard way.

Do you know what happens to old pick up artists? They buy brides from foreign countries that they can dominate and control. And it usually ends very badly. They hurt people because they are hurt themselves. They often end up alone, as pick-up artists don't really want love or involvement with others, like women who do similar things. It's a very empty life. And the people involved in it, don't think they deserve to be cared about. It's okay to want more than that.

Yes, it's an empty life, and I never argued in favour of it. Roosh V actually became a born-again Christian because he realized his life was nihilistic, and now he's looking for a wife. (FYI, I never read his stuff.)

But for some guys, it's a lifestyle. They set themselves a goal of having lots of sex with different partners, and they go out there and do it.