SunnyDay16
Well-Known Member
No no I wasn't referring to you. I resonate with much of what you've said actually!
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Scared of leaving Christianity
- Thread starter SunnyDay16
- Start date
No no I wasn't referring to you. I resonate with much of what you've said actually!
TempeFan
Well-Known Member
I was raised to be a two timing Catholic. The adults around me went to church two times per year on Christmas and Easter, but dropped me off at catechism class each week for free babysitting. The only mention of God that I heard was that if I did what they wanted, God would bless me and if I didn't, God would punish me and Santa wouldn't bring me any presents.
I've read the book. It contains some great advice for how all should behave in a perfect world, as well as describing some really rotten behavior like rape and murder and pedaphilia from the universe's most famous deadbeat dads. There are other edicts it does not contain, phrases like "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is simply not in there. That saying originated as a jingle for a detergent company. It's true what Pats said, "There are too many people adding their own meanings to it." I also found some major contradictions like your example of what people should do and what God would do - forgive you or burn you for being what the authors categorize as a sinner.
My sin was being concieved in the wrong womb which really wasn't my idea. I know not whether that divine intervention was a macabre mistake or a deliberate dastardly deed, but no mere mortal orchestrated my unalterable dire circumstances. However, I still can't seem to figure out what an innocent infant could have done wrong to deserve such extreme punishment from a benevolent supreme being. It just doesn't seem very Christian to hate a cute little baby so much.
Still, the only thing I can say with certainty is what Hdphn33 said, "when it comes to religion... since they use the great unknown, the afterlife which cannot be verified by anyone there is no proof that it isn't real."
There is no way in existence of proving one way or the other so.... Believe it or not Mr. Ripley. there's no changing it. IMO, if it helps one cope in a way that doesn't harm anyone else, I'm all for it. If it only confuses and torments, best not to dwell on it.
I've read the book. It contains some great advice for how all should behave in a perfect world, as well as describing some really rotten behavior like rape and murder and pedaphilia from the universe's most famous deadbeat dads. There are other edicts it does not contain, phrases like "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is simply not in there. That saying originated as a jingle for a detergent company. It's true what Pats said, "There are too many people adding their own meanings to it." I also found some major contradictions like your example of what people should do and what God would do - forgive you or burn you for being what the authors categorize as a sinner.
My sin was being concieved in the wrong womb which really wasn't my idea. I know not whether that divine intervention was a macabre mistake or a deliberate dastardly deed, but no mere mortal orchestrated my unalterable dire circumstances. However, I still can't seem to figure out what an innocent infant could have done wrong to deserve such extreme punishment from a benevolent supreme being. It just doesn't seem very Christian to hate a cute little baby so much.
Still, the only thing I can say with certainty is what Hdphn33 said, "when it comes to religion... since they use the great unknown, the afterlife which cannot be verified by anyone there is no proof that it isn't real."
There is no way in existence of proving one way or the other so.... Believe it or not Mr. Ripley. there's no changing it. IMO, if it helps one cope in a way that doesn't harm anyone else, I'm all for it. If it only confuses and torments, best not to dwell on it.
OlLiE
Well-Known Member
nothing is perfect,
that doesn't mean that it is entirely useless
religion for example gives a code of conduct,
a lot of those rules are still useful
but these rules were written i an entirely different era
so some rules/judgements are woefully outdated vis à vis the current culture
that there is an 'instinctive' discomfort with homosexuality is 'natural',
we have been animals for much longer than that we have been enlightened people,
every animal's instinctual prime directive is to survive,
one of the main tools of survival is procreation,
we haven't always lived in groups of 100s of 1000s or millions of people where it doesn't matter, in our animal period there were much less of us around and procreation was much more important for the survival of the species than it is today
it has only been a couple of decades since public opinion has changed,
whereas the bible was written much earlier on
the bible has not really evolved with humanity,
so it is not surprising that some aspects are out of date,
don't kill, don't steal, respect your elders, ... are still very relevant in my opinion
my religious failsafe is that if i act like a good christian (updated for the world today), but leave out the cultist aspects of christianity, i should be fine,
if praising the lord is central to getting to heaven, well then that sounds a bit shallow to me
that doesn't mean that it is entirely useless
religion for example gives a code of conduct,
a lot of those rules are still useful
but these rules were written i an entirely different era
so some rules/judgements are woefully outdated vis à vis the current culture
that there is an 'instinctive' discomfort with homosexuality is 'natural',
we have been animals for much longer than that we have been enlightened people,
every animal's instinctual prime directive is to survive,
one of the main tools of survival is procreation,
we haven't always lived in groups of 100s of 1000s or millions of people where it doesn't matter, in our animal period there were much less of us around and procreation was much more important for the survival of the species than it is today
it has only been a couple of decades since public opinion has changed,
whereas the bible was written much earlier on
the bible has not really evolved with humanity,
so it is not surprising that some aspects are out of date,
don't kill, don't steal, respect your elders, ... are still very relevant in my opinion
my religious failsafe is that if i act like a good christian (updated for the world today), but leave out the cultist aspects of christianity, i should be fine,
if praising the lord is central to getting to heaven, well then that sounds a bit shallow to me
OlLiE
Well-Known Member
by the way, even physics, the ultimate non religious activity, has rarely been right the first time, part of science method is that it is open to criticism, and that its tenants have to be challenged and survive competing theories and, physics has to evolve as insight has progressed, and as such has physics has remained up to date and relevant
if religion was more open to criticism and listened somewhat more to its flock (without losing its core density), it may have been able to evolve better and keep its message more relevant to more people, christianity and other religions do contain morals and values that are useful to society, but they get lost in discussions about where specific parts of the religion are outdated or offensive in current times
if religion was more open to criticism and listened somewhat more to its flock (without losing its core density), it may have been able to evolve better and keep its message more relevant to more people, christianity and other religions do contain morals and values that are useful to society, but they get lost in discussions about where specific parts of the religion are outdated or offensive in current times
I had a religion related trauma which caused me to have many troubles with religion.
I did a lot of reading and a lot of searching. It's still up and down, a long journey to be sure.
One thing I read about God really struck me.....I read a quote by Cicero who said how blasphemous that the gods were portrayed so shabbily. (Greek and Roman Gods were often doing rather nefarious things, things people now say of God.)
He said if we were to look at our very best, most noble man (or woman) and then say God acts worse, that he is petty, he creams your face in the dirt, he flips out because you were born a certain way.......Well, then, what? God is less virtuous, less noble, less righteous than your Gramma or uncle?
If people want to use the Bible to tell you certain things and judge you, they are violating THE PRIME principles of Christ, the harder principles, the ones they cannot accomplish because they are too busy "getting" you on a technicality.
It's much harder to love, to give, to care about people where they are and not step over them. It's so much easier to go around with a finger pointed, "Damned.....damned.....yup, damned.....TOTALLY damned......out.....not gonna make it!"
Let God work out the other stuff. Don't let other people lead you anywhere. If you feel in your heart a certain way, that's one thing. But you are Aspie, so you are smarter than most of your accusers.
I know I cannot even begin to give advice. Much better theologians than myself have engaged in the fray. But I hope you can find peace.
I did a lot of reading and a lot of searching. It's still up and down, a long journey to be sure.
One thing I read about God really struck me.....I read a quote by Cicero who said how blasphemous that the gods were portrayed so shabbily. (Greek and Roman Gods were often doing rather nefarious things, things people now say of God.)
He said if we were to look at our very best, most noble man (or woman) and then say God acts worse, that he is petty, he creams your face in the dirt, he flips out because you were born a certain way.......Well, then, what? God is less virtuous, less noble, less righteous than your Gramma or uncle?
If people want to use the Bible to tell you certain things and judge you, they are violating THE PRIME principles of Christ, the harder principles, the ones they cannot accomplish because they are too busy "getting" you on a technicality.
It's much harder to love, to give, to care about people where they are and not step over them. It's so much easier to go around with a finger pointed, "Damned.....damned.....yup, damned.....TOTALLY damned......out.....not gonna make it!"
Let God work out the other stuff. Don't let other people lead you anywhere. If you feel in your heart a certain way, that's one thing. But you are Aspie, so you are smarter than most of your accusers.
I know I cannot even begin to give advice. Much better theologians than myself have engaged in the fray. But I hope you can find peace.
True true and true. I have wondered what people do today that they were not doing at the time the Bible was written that would make it no longer apply to today. Many things HAVE changed in various sects because they are trying to please people instead of God.
I love that you wrote what you wrote because it hits the nail on the head.
SunnyDay16
Well-Known Member
I haven't quite felt he has been my rock for a long time. I'm not even sure if he exists, but I have a feeling he does. I don't find myself agreeing with much of what the God of the Bible does or demands, it in fact makes me angry to an extent. That's why I'm considering just not involving myself in any religion.
What if that God of so many religions exists, but not in the context that so many religions claim?
If this helps:
I've never been one for organized religion. Hadn't been to church since my confirmation at age 14. I went with my parents one Sunday, and surely the preacher preached. But where it just kinda rubbed me the wrong way until age 14, at 27 I had the requisite knowledge to know what I was seeing: a cult of personality on a global scale. Haven't been back to church since.
But I have studied Christianity extensively and remain a Christian. You'll go crazy if you try to approach the Bible on an intellectual level. I stick to the principle set out by Martin Luther, that God's love is bolstered on faith alone. If you look for hard-and-fast rules from the Bible, you're going to be disappointed.
I've never been one for organized religion. Hadn't been to church since my confirmation at age 14. I went with my parents one Sunday, and surely the preacher preached. But where it just kinda rubbed me the wrong way until age 14, at 27 I had the requisite knowledge to know what I was seeing: a cult of personality on a global scale. Haven't been back to church since.
But I have studied Christianity extensively and remain a Christian. You'll go crazy if you try to approach the Bible on an intellectual level. I stick to the principle set out by Martin Luther, that God's love is bolstered on faith alone. If you look for hard-and-fast rules from the Bible, you're going to be disappointed.
Your thread's title betrays a sense of reluctance (on abandoning Christianity).
SunnyDay16
Well-Known Member
Yeah because I wanted to see if anyone could relate to how I've been feeling.
Research conducted in the UK in 2017 found that more people identify as having no religion than are christian. In fact over half the population is irreligious. It's really not an issue here not believing in a god. The number of those who DO identify as christian that regularly attend church services is even lower. There are also far more roman catholics than protestants despite the C of E/ C of S being the official religious affiliation of the nation. People don't "lose" their faith - they never had it in the first place and don't need it in their lives.
If you have faith then great - but it should come from a place of love and positivity, a sense that your god believes and trusts in you as much as you do in them, not of fear of the consequences or of social exclusion. That's the religion of the middle ages that relies on fear of hell to keep the flock in order.
I was amazed when I found out there was such a thing as an "atheist community" in the US - it wouldn't even occur to people here to band together and defend their lack of need for gods in their lives. There's little to no debate on the subject here - if you believe in a god or gods then good for you, if you don't - who cares? It's your life, believe in what you want to (as long as you're not hurting others) and get on with your life.
If you have faith then great - but it should come from a place of love and positivity, a sense that your god believes and trusts in you as much as you do in them, not of fear of the consequences or of social exclusion. That's the religion of the middle ages that relies on fear of hell to keep the flock in order.
I was amazed when I found out there was such a thing as an "atheist community" in the US - it wouldn't even occur to people here to band together and defend their lack of need for gods in their lives. There's little to no debate on the subject here - if you believe in a god or gods then good for you, if you don't - who cares? It's your life, believe in what you want to (as long as you're not hurting others) and get on with your life.
I didn't realize that's how it is in the UK. I do wish it was more that way here in the US. Here, it is actually harder these days to be a Christian. While everyone else (including prostitutes) are fighting and winning for more and more rights, we are losing ours. You said 'who cares' and that's the part that gets me over here. If someone is truly an atheist, why does it bother them so much to see a manger scene or a cross somewhere? I don't have those things, but that's how it is here. This group of atheists put up billboards meant to disgrace us. Why? It's like we are trying to be forced out of our beliefs. People here can no longer live how they choose - it's their way period. I accept that we have different beliefs and I respect that, why can't everyone?
And @SunnyDay16 that's where your problem comes in. You want to not believe in God and in your heart you can't and that's why it's such a battle for you. I honestly do understand your struggle and hope you can come to terms with yourself.
SunnyDay16
Well-Known Member
I do believe in the possibility of a god, I just don't care for Christianity or the God of the Bible because the inconsistencies between the sects, the gruesome nature of the Bible, and the frustration kept adding up.
I've actually been to church services that will spend an entire sermon on why this or that sect is going to hell and it angers me because I know it's not that way and it confuses me. I often wonder if I'm in the right place, especially when the focus is on things that are 'commandments of men' and not straight out of the Bible. I get frustrated and confused. But I've tried many different congregations and only been to one that does not do this and that was in Georgia, where I no longer live. They thought more like I do and I wish I could live here and attend services there. Sometimes I want to just quit but then feel guilty if I don't go anywhere and then end up sitting there listening to how wrong it is to only be there on Sunday mornings and not every time the door is open (when the Bible never gives and actual frequency). People make me feel guilty, God's word does not. And some Sundays I just can not get myself to go - this is one of those cases that I literally feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. (Am I allowed to say that in this context?)
I went to a Catholic school with nuns back in the 80s so have been thinking around this my whole life.
I've changed my mind a lot, but the belief system I'm currently settled on is as follows.
I do believe that Jesus existed and I do believe in miracles. I do believe in God, or some form of creator. I believe in an afterlife and know in my heart that there's more to the universe than we can process with our 5 senses.
However, the contradictions you mention also don't sit well with me. I think that the truth has been filtered through man and, not so much corrupted, but certainly skewed. Each group that has reprinted the Bible will have done so with their own agenda, which is unlikely to be absolute truth.
So if I had to guess, I would say there are probably many Gods. The universe is too complex for just one architect. Also, when I play God games on the computer, I don't stick around to watch my creation, no architect does. I move on. I don't think God is watching, I think we have to help and look out for each other. I believe people like Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed were old souls who were strong enough to do just that. Maybe we could vote in a new God. Maybe next election she can be a woman
I've changed my mind a lot, but the belief system I'm currently settled on is as follows.
I do believe that Jesus existed and I do believe in miracles. I do believe in God, or some form of creator. I believe in an afterlife and know in my heart that there's more to the universe than we can process with our 5 senses.
However, the contradictions you mention also don't sit well with me. I think that the truth has been filtered through man and, not so much corrupted, but certainly skewed. Each group that has reprinted the Bible will have done so with their own agenda, which is unlikely to be absolute truth.
So if I had to guess, I would say there are probably many Gods. The universe is too complex for just one architect. Also, when I play God games on the computer, I don't stick around to watch my creation, no architect does. I move on. I don't think God is watching, I think we have to help and look out for each other. I believe people like Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed were old souls who were strong enough to do just that. Maybe we could vote in a new God. Maybe next election she can be a woman
Xerces Blue
Evil Overload
I first questioned my faith when I was 14 or so, my older brother presented his own questions about the religion we where raised in to me - we both ended leaving our faith as did our younger brother (who I didn't bring my questions too, He decided on his own)
My Sister stayed in the Faith (so far at least) and gets security and comfort in - something I don't fault her for and wish her well - whatever makes her happy even if it didn't work for me.
I think it's good to question, without questioning you don't look into things, you don't figure things out.
Questioning is a path to learning.
I know what doubt in ones belief feels like, I lived with it for several years.
Those you should question the hardest are those who tell you not to question for they have the most to fear.
My Sister stayed in the Faith (so far at least) and gets security and comfort in - something I don't fault her for and wish her well - whatever makes her happy even if it didn't work for me.
I think it's good to question, without questioning you don't look into things, you don't figure things out.
Questioning is a path to learning.
I know what doubt in ones belief feels like, I lived with it for several years.
Those you should question the hardest are those who tell you not to question for they have the most to fear.
I was once at a point when i didnt believe in the bible any longer, and I realized it is actually the one which created god. Every religion created its own god, so if i could not believe in them, then there was no god i could believe in since it would mean to invent my own god or my own version, like all the inspired religions and newborn ones. I was not afraid after a while, I found much more comfort and i was more true to myself than when robotized to do things that were not important and not helpful to anyone neither my true self. I discovered myself so much as i came to terms with what good i believed in and what i think about the world. I have confident knowledge about what I want the world to be and how i want people to live with each other, as well as how I can understand people and how society is structured and functioning, accepting the past and putting it together in a whole that is at peace with my judgement and with respect to my mind, acknowledging my feelings, and weaknesses. Knowing that feeling something is true is one thing but thinking and putting the proof back to back is the real thing. So that has made me be at peace with my whole self.
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