ND-ND marriage, anything I have not tried?

[yogabanana]

I could write a whole book about this but I won't do that to you. The story might sound like a stereotype - wife feels emotionally deprived, disconnected, ND husband says he is doing what she is asking for but she isn't experiencing it the way it "should" be. ND husband apparently unable to see his role in most of the problems, and does not believe the wife when she attempts to explain it to him.

First the positives. We both enjoy lots of alone time and understand not to personalize it. We understand sensory issues/needs and try to accommodate each other as best we can on those. We do really love each other I think. We coparent well together and have very few disagreements about most common sore subjects like religion, in-laws, money, and sex. Sex life was good for a long time even though we argue a lot. He is very willing to accommodate me if he thinks my request is reasonable and doable. We can keep up with each other intellectually and enjoy some similar hobbies/special interests.

But. I am running into issues involving his theory of mind weaknesses and cannot find a way to address it. He assumes things about me, my motives, my feelings, etc. and even if I tell him that he's got it wrong, he continues to believe he knows my inner experience better than I know it myself. If he thinks what I am upset about "shouldn't" be so important, he unilaterally decides not to take it seriously. Sometimes he goes through the motions of hearing the concern but loses patience quickly.

Basically the relationship is alright as long as I do not ask for empathy and understanding for anything he doesn't already, immediately see the way I see it.

Also, if he cannot "fix" the issue quickly and with fairly little effort, he decides I "want things to suck" or "want to wallow in mud" or I'm on my period and then removes himself. He won't discuss things anymore at that point. He says he is waiting til it all blows over in a few days. I cannot get him to understand that what he is doing is abandoning the relationship, eroding my ability to find safe attachment in the relationship, and making me think that divorce is my only choice because I can't be with someone that runs and hides if something is not resolved for me but they think it should be, or they are afraid to just say they feel overwhelmed/powerless/etc so they just go silent. (No he is not mute in these situations - he can talk to anyone just fine about anything. He just has decided that backing away from me is better than trying to figure it out together or hearing me out.

It is like because he can think like a computer, is smart, and his pattern recognition is often accurate, he assumes that it is approaching 100% accuracy and missing huge huge bits of information. But because he has decided he understands everything, he cannot hear that there are things he is missing. He has no curiosity about it.

He thinks I "want there to be problems" because his simple effort to correct something doesn't work like he thinks it should - the problem lies with me, not him misunderstanding what I need from him. He doesn't ask hey, I thought I was giving you this but clearly something is missing, help me understand. He just says I give you that thing you say you want but you won't take it.

I need to "talk through" things to feel like they are resolved and he hates that. I end up perseverating when I am anxious about relational problems - this can end up with me obnoxiously and compulsively making him have a 2 hour conversation late at night, both sleep deprived, because I get stuck and think he must just not understand because if he did understand, these issues would not be issues anymore, so I over-explain. Well, I used to do this. More recently I'm pretty checked out like, what's the point, I try everything I know to do, and he's still acting in ways that make me feel invalidated, gaslit, invisible, unheard.

We have done couples counseling and individual counseling. There used to be other issues too, him being severely, profoundly conflict avoidant causing him to be very defensive, stonewalling, withdrawing etc. That stuff is a fair bit better.

But I have a background in training on listening to people well and taking on their perspective so my autism doesn't impair this area as much as it normally would. He can fake empathy. He says his way of dealing with everyone is an algorithm and he can't figure out a set of algorithms that work with me so he just gives up.

Between his poor perspective taking, alexithymia, defensiveness due to rejection sensitivity, slow processing of any emotional information, lack of awareness of cause and effect in these situations, and my own difficulties, we are at an impasse. I told him I don't want to come to couples therapy anymore because what is the point if he thinks that I am not an accurate historian of my own experience, and cannot consider my perspective as equally valid to his own even if he would arrive at a different conclusion, and is not curious to understand why I am upset.

I have learned a lot and done a lot to accommodate his flavor of autism. At this point I am done working. I need to see him make more of an effort to understand my version of autism, admit to his limitations and stop treating me like I don't have equal access to "truth" since relationship truth is always subjective. He wants to see his subjective truth as if it is objective when it's not. But he tunes me out so I cannot get him to see this in a way that shows up in how he is interacting with me.

SO anyway I feel like I have done all I can. I cannot continue to beg for respect and consideration and I do not understand what I am doing wrong in communicating my needs. I worry that I am not doing anything wrong and he is just not willing to put in the effort to understand me (not his assumptions about me) that I have put into understanding him. I do not see him taking ownership over very much that is going wrong with us.

He can only see maybe 20% of how he is contributing to our issues but doesn't appear interested to understand that more. Or, because of the mind blindness, he truly cannot see it but he thinks he is right, he thinks (wrongly) that he can really think like a computer without logical fallacy, biases and blind spots, so I am left wondering how can I possibly get through to him if he cannot even see that he has holes in his understanding???

I am just so tired and so sad. I have put in so much effort to this relationship and really wanted it to work for my son. But the level of emotional neglect, invalidation, poor communication is too much now. If he were better at taking ownership and displaying true effort to address those areas where he is lacking skills I would still feel some hope. But it feels like he is just half assing everything and not even treating me like a human unless I am smiling at him. If I am not smiling then I do not exist. It's not right to do that to someone.

So what else can I do? I tried writing things out. He doesn't even read it. DO you have any idea how much it hurts to put like an hour into saying things just so, considering how your partner will be triggered by certain communication, then he doesn't even read it??? I cannot even describe how much that hurts. I am pretty sure that there is no hope for us but figure I would ask a place like this before I throw up my white flag and surrender to being another statistic of that 80% of failed marriages.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

So sad to hear your story and understand about your emotional needs not being met. My spouse and I have had to work through some of that. I was diagnosed at 60, and after that, as my spouse's libido was waning, normal at our age, I had a hard time not feeling desired and it started triggering a lot of overwhelming negative emotions from back when I felt socially and sexually isolated as a teen and young adult. I guess my mind interpreted that as traumatic and I've spent the past year in therapy for that. It is working and we are once again enjoying a loving intimacy. We are never done with ourselves, are we?

 

[yogabanana]

So sad to hear your story and understand about your emotional needs not being met. My spouse and I have had to work through some of that. I was diagnosed at 60, and after that, as my spouse's libido was waning, normal at our age, I had a hard time not feeling desired and it started triggering a lot of overwhelming negative emotions from back when I felt socially and sexually isolated as a teen and young adult. I guess my mind interpreted that as traumatic and I've spent the past year in therapy for that. It is working and we are once again enjoying a loving intimacy. We are never done with ourselves, are we?

Thank you. Sorry to hear you had a hard time with her transition.

 

[Hypnalis]

Your description does sound very like NT<->ND communication issues.

You have different modes of communication, and different emotional registers.

It seems you're somewhere between:
(a) Your husband won't give you what you want, and (b) your husband can't give you what you need.
(Those are the two outliers of four cases)

(a) might be resolvable. (b) probably not resolvable.

Have you tried being direct about what you need him to do?
I'd be astonished if he could be taught how to "read" your emotions and emotional needs. He's probably completely blind to things that are in your register but not his.
But he might be able to act more appropriately if he's given clear instructions.

Note: I don't mean that as an easy answer.

The first is literally a question, but there's an indirect element: do you know, and you able to verbalize what you need?

The second is just a perspective.
I use the idea about non-overlapping emotional registers as behavioral guidance for myself sometimes. If an NT is saying or doing something incomprehensible, I ask myself if that's happened (i.e. one or both of us is in a "blind spot"). If I think so, I attempt to come at the topic from a different direction/perspective.

For me that "proves" it's an issue that can sometimes be addressed.
It may be completely useless for you though. It's just a personal thing, designed for my own way of interacting with NTs. I can't even guess if it would be useful between two NDs.

 

[Aspea]

But. I am running into issues involving his theory of mind weaknesses and cannot find a way to address it. He assumes things about me, my motives, my feelings, etc. and even if I tell him that he's got it wrong, he continues to believe he knows my inner experience better than I know it myself. If he thinks what I am upset about "shouldn't" be so important, he unilaterally decides not to take it seriously. Sometimes he goes through the motions of hearing the concern but loses patience quickly.

Basically the relationship is alright as long as I do not ask for empathy and understanding for anything he doesn't already, immediately see the way I see it.

Also, if he cannot "fix" the issue quickly and with fairly little effort, he decides I "want things to suck" or "want to wallow in mud" or I'm on my period and then removes himself. He won't discuss things anymore at that point. He says he is waiting til it all blows over in a few days. I cannot get him to understand that what he is doing is abandoning the relationship, eroding my ability to find safe attachment in the relationship, and making me think that divorce is my only choice because I can't be with someone that runs and hides if something is not resolved for me but they think it should be, or they are afraid to just say they feel overwhelmed/powerless/etc so they just go silent. (No he is not mute in these situations - he can talk to anyone just fine about anything. He just has decided that backing away from me is better than trying to figure it out together or hearing me out.

It is like because he can think like a computer, is smart, and his pattern recognition is often accurate, he assumes that it is approaching 100% accuracy and missing huge huge bits of information. But because he has decided he understands everything, he cannot hear that there are things he is missing. He has no curiosity about it.

You mentioned this is an ND-ND marriage; is that your assessment, or does he also know that he is on the spectrum?

This all boils down to whether or not you can break through his incorrect idea that his intelligence and computer-like thinking abilities will always give him the right answer in all areas of life. He needs to understand that this does not apply or penetrate into the world of emotions and that this will be an area of difficulty for him--that he must change his approach and attitude, and become curious and humble when it comes to this area. He needs to be able to understand and accept that the emotional realm is not a math equation or an algorithm.

His algorithms work on other people because those relationships are not as deep or as need-intensive as a romantic one.

But, it sounds to me like he may not be interested in any relationship that requires more than he is currently providing.

Were any of those couples or individual counselors trained in ND couples?

 

[yogabanana]

Your description does sound very like NT<->ND communication issues.

You have different modes of communication, and different emotional registers.

It seems you're somewhere between:
(a) Your husband won't give you what you want, and (b) your husband can't give you what you need.
(Those are the two outliers of four cases)

(a) might be resolvable. (b) probably not resolvable.

Have you tried being direct about what you need him to do?
I'd be astonished if he could be taught how to "read" your emotions and emotional needs. He's probably completely blind to things that are in your register but not his.
But he might be able to act more appropriately if he's given clear instructions.

Note: I don't mean that as an easy answer.

The first is literally a question, but there's an indirect element: do you know, and you able to verbalize what you need?

The second is just a perspective.
I use the idea about non-overlapping emotional registers as behavioral guidance for myself sometimes. If an NT is saying or doing something incomprehensible, I ask myself if that's happened (i.e. one or both of us is in a "blind spot"). If I think so, I attempt to come at the topic from a different direction/perspective.

For me that "proves" it's an issue that can sometimes be addressed.
It may be completely useless for you though. It's just a personal thing, designed for my own way of interacting with NTs. I can't even guess if it would be useful between two NDs.

Hi thank you. Yes I am emotionally aware but still socially screwed... so I am very aware that I am being rejected but don't know why. Then anxiously ruminate to try to figure it out.

Compared to hubby who spent his childhood and teen years oblivious to those same signals of rejection, and it led to very different experiences. I actually had another therapist say that I couldn't be autistic because I can read nonverbal communication. Pshh. I was raised in an abusive home so nonverbal communication was my threat evaluation system, and reading emotions in someone's tone/posture etc doesn't mean that I magically get all the social expectations that others have and doesn't account for my sensory issues either, and now that I am hitting middle age I do not have the same energy to mask with and I find myself having melt downs and shut downs more often. And also, it's a form of pattern recognition so...

But I'm a weirdo amongst autists with emotional intimacy as a special interest LOL

So yes I agree completely that we are either at (a) or (b). I am afraid it's (b) and my level of grief has increased significantly the last few months as I face that possibility.

I do feel that I give clear instructions but then what he attempts is not what I ask for - like I want to know he understands my experience. That means more than just saying the words "I understand what you're saying." You have to elaborate so I have proof. I want to not have my messages ignored, even if he does not like what they say, because ignoring them makes problems worse.

I don't expect him to read my emotions (honestly he kinda does that pretty well, he can tell if I am upset before I say something etc.,) but I do expect him to use words, be willing to share his felt experience in the moment - like even if it's "I'm overwhelmed and don't know what to do" that's something! But just implying there is something wrong with me for asking for something or going off to do something else as if I hadn't even spoken to him, these are not acceptable responses to someone asking for communication that involves emotions in some form.

I do feel that lately the bigger problem is the mind blindness and the denial or lack of awareness about it. I cannot see a way around that, if he doesn't know he has blind spots and doesn't believe me when I share my experience then what can I even do?

I like what you say about being on two different registers. I've had years of therapy and skill-building and am very aware of my internal state (Hypersensitive). It's like a different frequency and we need some way to meet in the overlap. But my struggle now, is he has given me so many signals that he really doesn't give a **** about my opinion or doesn't believe what I say (which he also admits is armor to avoid feeling like a p.o.s. for failing so much), that it's hard to believe he's coming to the situation in good faith.

If you don't reply to a message 50 different times, and usually imply it's because there's something wrong with me for wanting to use words to work things out or make excuses, without saying "hey I know this is important even if I'm having trouble showing up for this conversation" then the times you ignore me by accident won't magically feel like they are in a different bucket. Sooner or later it all blends together especially if you will not be forthright because of defensiveness etc.

Like yesterday I expressed exasperation because I put effort into a message that he never acknowledged. Today the same thing. And when he texted about something unrelated, I replied "oh that's disappointing after I just told you how much it hurts for you to ignore me, I don't even get some version of I see you've written but can't respond so here's how I will remind myself to read this later" and he didn't answer that either.

He has reasons he believes are valid. But when you also do this just because you're overwhelmed or don't want to deal with it and don't bother saying anything, that all takes a toll. Nobody in my position would feel like their needs really matter if the actions are largely to ignore, or to tune out, or to turn your back and walk the opposite way, or to translate my painstaking effort to explain my needs in great detail as "got it - you think I suck" like no! That isn't what I am saying! If that is what you're hearing then how can you possibly apply the actual specific feedback you're getting to improve things?

My love language is words of affirmation. He has known this for years. He will occasionally acknowledge he is not making much effort to give me that type of communication, and tries for a day or two, but I think he honestly believes he should be able to check one box for "things yogabanana asks for that she says will make things better" and if it doesn't make everything better all the time, he thinks it's not a useful intervention.

That is so confusing for me, like you are so smart, how can you not understand things do not work like that especially when there's so many wounds built up that have not gotten the right attention to heal them?

I try to break it all down into things he can put into an algorithm but I want moments of actual emotional intimacy too. I have done enough reading to know that it is technically possible for a neurodivergent man to learn how to do that, given certain other circumstances in place. I feel like all the things I do to translate my understanding to fit his way of being in the world, he could work harder to reciprocate.

And if he thinks he knows better what's happening and why, and cannot see that relational experiences necessarily involve two versions of right, basically ALWAYS, then what can I even do? Nothing, I don't think. He's going to think what he will, discount/discredit my alternative view, and I can only handle so much of that before I feel like he doesn't even think I'm a real human being.

When he is masking he is such a kind, generous, caring, empathetic person. But magically cannot empathize when I have bad feelings related to things he is doing or not doing. I don't get how he can do the one but not the other.

 

[yogabanana]

You mentioned this is an ND-ND marriage; is that your assessment, or does he also know that he is on the spectrum?

This all boils down to whether or not you can break through his incorrect idea that his intelligence and computer-like thinking abilities will always give him the right answer in all areas of life. He needs to understand that this does not apply or penetrate into the world of emotions and that this will be an area of difficulty for him--that he must change his approach and attitude, and become curious and humble when it comes to this area. He needs to be able to understand and accept that the emotional realm is not a math equation or an algorithm.

His algorithms work on other people because those relationships are not as deep or as need-intensive as a romantic one.

But, it sounds to me like he may not be interested in any relationship that requires more than he is currently providing.

Were any of those couples or individual counselors trained in ND couples?

Yes he knows that he is on the spectrum but has not looked into it much, is not familiar with terms like mind blindness to my knowledge. Not aware of theory of mind deficits outside the conversation about adhd (which we both also have).

We had one counselor that had some specialized understanding of ADHD but not autism and at that time we did not realize either of us had it.

I have signed up for a support group for NT wives of ND husbands (I explained to the person I am actually autistic too but my needs present similar to that dynamic so I think I need that kind of support). The guy offers groups for ND men too. At one time husband expressed some openness to it. But his executive functioning means he is not likely to fully pursue it independently and actually attend all the sessions. (I mean he can do that for his physical health appointments but for any area that he feels self-criticism about he is super avoidant.)

He SAYS he is interested in learning how to do this. But I think it's as you said, he cannot accept that he currently sucks at applying his skills to this domain, and won't be teachable. Like I am a therapist FFS I can guide him but he does not want to accept that my knowledge might be superior to his in this one space (partly because he thinks he's doing what I ask for and it isn't working for reasons that must be my fault).

I would love for him to decide to participate in a "tell you straight" group for ND men that have this kind of hubris and blind spots. I think he's gotta hear the same (#$& information from someone that isn't his wife to really hear it. (ETA: And if he thinks all of this is really my fault then where is his motivation to really dig into his side of our issues?)

I think you are right on the nose with how you are conceptualizing the situation and I appreciate your sharing your POV.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

I don't have time for a full answer, but something caught my eye:

I want to know he understands my experience.

I can't say this is impossible, but I specifically wrote about half of my post thinking that this might be a major issue.
It's what the stuff about mismatched emotional registers is for.

Do you think there are things you need him to understand that are impossible for him?

Note it's the "understand" I'm focused on, as opposed to "accept". Because you can't achieve understanding by telling someone how to act.

I know I'm putting you on the spot with that question, but you don't need to answer me - you need to answer yourself. So timing doesn't matter, and only share your answer here if you want to.

 

[yogabanana]

Maybe it's not possible. In my mind I think if I explain it so much, so thoroughly, then how can he not understand it?

Like if you consider it as different cultures, then given enough information I, a white American, can understand aspects of Indian culture or whatever. Same should apply here. But I think a missing ingredient is curiosity. If he's not curious because he thinks he knows (or he's got too much internal noise to be present to what I'm asking for) then he's not going to hear me.

What you are saying is part of why I get so upset too. I don't want to just feed him response patterns to use. I want him to listen, really listen even though he feels criticized (even though I'm not actually doing that and that's his issue to address in himself), integrate the information, and convert it to actionable Intel. If I've told you twenty times when I'm crying and scared I need a hug and if you wait til I'm angry everything will be harder to fix, then why do I need to keep explaining that? Ten years together you still don't remember this? I understand not not coming naturally but I don't understand still needing me to say it after so much time.

I think if he studied the theory of mind stuff and didn't have all the baggage around his failures he is absolutely capable of this.

 

[yogabanana]

@yogabanana

I don't have time for a full answer, but something caught my eye:

I want to know he understands my experience.

I can't say this is impossible, but I specifically wrote about half of my post thinking that this might be a major issue.
It's what the stuff about mismatched emotional registers is for.

Do you think there are things you need him to understand that are impossible for him?

Note it's the "understand" I'm focused on, as opposed to "accept". Because you can't achieve understanding by telling someone how to act.

I know I'm putting you on the spot with that question, but you don't need to answer me - you need to answer yourself. So timing doesn't matter, and only share your answer here if you want to.

I want to also thank you for clarifying that the question didn't necessarily need to be answered here and it was not urgent. Having expectations spelled out so thoroughly is super nice and refreshing!

 

[Aspychata]

Is it simple validation, you need to feel validated, and he can't quite cross that bridge? I asked someone, why can't you answer your phone? He was upset at the feeling it was a imposition for him. But now l realize it's my love language and he just can't do it because he hates unstructured conversation. So l kinda just step back and realize there are confines that maybe l am not skilled enough to deal with emotionally.

 

[Stuttermabolur]

I feel you. I think I was once sort of like your husband. The relationship dissolved around the time I started looking more into autism (by her beckoning, I admit). On one hand, I think we weren't right for each other so I think it's for the best that it ended (we are still friends). On the other hand, I think it is a shame it ended right as I was beginning to discover more about how the way I think differs from others, and how it was something I actively needed to work on.

I only have one piece of advice. It will probably be uncomfortable for you (it would definitely be for me as I keep my feelings close to me), but I find it hard to see what else would work if this doesn't.

Show him this conversation. Alternatively, you could phrase what you wrote her differently to send him, but I think the way you write would be different if you knew you were writing to him. I find it easier to process information if I encounter it in written form when there isn't a lot of pressure on me. I also tend to "resist" without even thinking if someone is pushing for me to do something (I really resisted going to see a psychologist for instance), but seeing a conversation about it is different. Something might "come unstuck" in his mind like it did for me. I don't mean that his personality will change and he'll suddenly be way better at understanding your needs, but rather that he might understand what effect his behaviour is having on you better. I know you have already told him numerous times, but I think seeing it written like that and not directed at him might be better.

It is entirely up to you whether you do this or not. The main reason I say this is because I don't have any other advice to give, but I don't want you to give up hope just yet. I really don't know if anything can be done if this doesn't work though.

 

[Thinx]

It does sound like your hopes of what your partner might achieve have been well tested. I guess maybe many years ago you chose each other at a different life stage and perhaps have now developed some difference in what you each would like or need. It feels like you maybe need to think about what you feel your alternatives are to this situation, and going to the support group is likely to assist you out of this dilemma. Sometimes partners don't want the same things.

 

[paloftoon]

I don't think this is a good relationship for you to stay in. You've done all the therapy you can. It is his nature to be so robotic and close-mindedness emotionally.

Stuttermabolur's idea to put something in writing (an e-mail is probably instead too) I think is a wonderful idea. This is worth trying before deciding if you have to go through the process of moving on.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

We're getting into overlapping partially-answered posts now, and I don't have time to read it all (working today).
I'll do my best to process everything, but it might take a day or two.
(also remember the sentence above - it's an example of something I'll raise again)

This is a partial response to your post #9.

I suggest you think about some of the "basic symptom" characteristics of Aspies, but from what might be a slightly different viewpoint.

People on the AS "turn away" from the NT world. Nobody actually knows why, and ASD1's in general, especially Aspies picking up on language "organically", demonstrate it's not an absolute thing.
But the consensus is still that the underlying cause is "hardware-related".

Some other words that are consistent with "turning away" and behavior frequently demonstrated by Aspies:
stubborn, selfish, arrogant, intractable, obstinate, obsessive, narcissistic, inclined, to illusory superiority, inclined to denial, etc. I'm sure there are more - maybe Gypsy Moth will drop by and add to the list (please do GM).

Also, related to this, your husband greatly over-estimates his ability to understand other people, unfortunately including you.

I believe we (ASD1's) are all susceptible to all the traits on that list, but IMO he's way too high on unmanaged selfishness, arrogance, and illusory superiority. Dunning-Kruger (below) isn't directly on the list (it's a general cognitive bias), but I suspect it also plays a part (look back at the "incompletely non-overlapping emotional range" stuff I wrote).
Read the intro to this (but be careful, almost everyone misses some key points the first time they read about D-K)

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All that those traits and biases are also quite close to what we observe in just-verbal toddlers (I've forgotten the age range (it's been a long time) - maybe 2-4 or 2-5).

I don't think it's necessary to map those traits onto your husband, but I do think that somewhere in there is the reason your explanations and guidance soak into his mind like flowing water into a flawless crystal ball

And to reiterate - some of it, maybe a lot of it, is a "hardware issue" - so OFC there's no "magic wand".
But the same is true for toddlers - and in their case it's absolutely known to be a hardware issue. They're also equally resistant to rational explanations, and disinclined to obey instructions /lol.

So that's the perspective.

The message, if there's a simple one, is that you're not likely to resolve your issues with words.
You can almost certainly improve your delivery, but he's still more nearly a "crystal ball" than a sponge

You mentioned raising a child though, so you've dealt with the NT version of everything on my list.
I doubt you'll resolve this with rational discussions, but perhaps you'll find inspiration in your child-raising experiences.
This isn't a joke by the way. Of course they don't match perfectly. But logic has failed you, and you're already looking for inspiration elsewhere. Perhaps some of it can come from within.

(BTW I have (now adult) kids. I know that some of what we do while raising them is conditioning. But our intentions are good, and we work hard not to do harm.)

 

[yogabanana]

Is it simple validation, you need to feel validated, and he can't quite cross that bridge? I asked someone, why can't you answer your phone? He was upset at the feeling it was a imposition for him. But now l realize it's my love language and he just can't do it because he hates unstructured conversation. So l kinda just step back and realize there are confines that maybe l am not skilled enough to deal with emotionally.

Yes more or less. I need validation and he can only give me lip service versions of it unless he already innately sees the issue the same way.

And maybe I'm not skilled enough to deal with this emotionally. I've tried changing myself, my expectations, turns out this is actually a true need for me not just a want, and getting it from other people isn't enough.

 

[yogabanana]

Thanks again. I really think he will ignore anything I send him, which hurts me very much, but maybe he will read it if I tell him it was a suggestion not from me but from other people that don't know either of us.

This is all further complicated by how our communication went last night. We have a long history of me feeling unheard and he has been educated and prompted to practice active listening skills. He will do it a few days then stop. He will rarely ever do it for a difficult conversation which is honestly when I need the most to know he's really taking in what I am saying.

Part of why a conversation lasts so long is that I am unwittingly talking at him about my position. When he doesn't acknowledge what I am saying, I don't know that he hears me so I keep going. But then he is saturated and aggressive at setting limits vs giving an early warning so we can both adjust our communication.

I understand that autism can make it hard to use NT listening skills and honestly don't even fault him for forgetting sometimes. But, he doesn't apologize when I call it out. I remind him I feel invisible if he doesn't respond to what I say, and he doesn't seem to care that he isn't helping me feel heard. Caring would look like an apology and an immediate effort to correct the problem. Multiple professionals have explained to him if you want her to say less and not become louder you have to do better at showing you hear her.

Instead there seems to always be some kind of power struggle about my emotional needs which I do not understand at all. How does he not see that he is always making the problem bigger if I tell him this is what I need and he resists giving it to me? If it's PDA or something then just SAY that is what is going on, because if you say nothing and just don't act on my feedback then I will have to draw my own conclusions.

He stares at his phone the whole time I'm trying to talk to him. If eye contact isn't possible ok, known issue, accepted, but he could compromise better. He could look at my nose, or he could take notes about what we are discussing. Not playing games on the phone.

I am feeling even more hopeless. I told him I would not go to couples therapy since I am not seeing the level of accountability I need, and many therapists will see one part of a couple even if the other isn't there. I told the therapist I was not going and why and she paused the therapy. I was really hoping he would go anyway as he said he wanted to, and be helped to understand that the things I am asking for are real, this is really a relationship crisis, and he really does need to accept that certain baseline behaviors are necessary if he hopes to remain married. Maybe even role play and be coached on how to give me the type of feedback I need and helped to understand why what he is doing does not work. Come home without unnecessary pride and ego and make a real repair to our dynamic that is centered on better self-awareness of his role in all of this. Like a "foxhole prayer" that actually leads to salvation.

For all I know he would have spent the whole session blaming everything on me, though.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

I didn't pick up that your situation may be acute, so I'm bringing a (possible) topic forward. This is brief, and too direct, but I don't have time to do it well right now.

Your husband and I share some Aspie traits, so maybe I'm projecting, but if I was in his situation you'd be making this much worse. Note that I'm making assumptions about your communication style from your posts.
I could be wrong. Of course. But if I'm right, you should act promptly.

I suggest you immediately change the way you communicate with him about these very important issues.

IRL I insta-ghost absolutely everyone who uses that communication style on emotional topics excepting only my kids. I'm no longer married, but it caused some significant problems when I was (some definitely my fault BTW).

That's it - if anyone else does it I either "turn them off" (I'm good at "managing" NTs) and ghost them; immediately walk away and ghost them; or if it's work (it only ever happened once) completely stop interacting with them (effectively ghosting but still sometimes in the same room

I hope I'm wrong, but I might not be. For now I suggest patience.

 

[yogabanana]

I am not sure how to communicate differently. I have tried a "drive by" where I just give info and say don't respond now and then go. It does help in that immediate situation whenever he fully digests the information. But he often does not integrate it and apply it in a meaningful way.

So what communication style are you recommending? I have to admit that I feel like I am already twisting myself to cater to him, and I do resent the idea that I also have to package myself in a specific way to have my experience matter in an actionable way.

He says I need to be more patient. I do try. It's difficult when I feel that my most important needs are being ignored without an immediate explanation.

In a relationship you should be able to get care and comfort from your partner when you are in distress if you have explained that you need that, vs needing space, so him running off makes me MORE distressed, more in need of comfort, and frustrated at his failure to provide it.

He waits until I do not have emotional needs anymore to return. What is the point of marriage if you can't rely on each other for things that are important to you that you cannot fully obtain by yourself? If I have to be self-reliant in all dimensions of my life whether I am married or not, but being married also creates a LOT of extra work for me, then being married is not a smart call for me to make.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

But, it sounds to me like he may not be interested in any relationship that requires more than he is currently providing.

Agree.

@yogabanana (love that screen name btw) I've been with the same woman for 37+ years. As an autistic individual, I know her only from past experiences, but I have never been able to assess her thoughts and emotions in the moment,...unless they are extreme,...which rarely ever happens. So, I have to keep asking questions,...and she has to give me direct answers. I understand my "disability" with regards to theory of mind,...so instead of dwelling on it,...I just adapt to it by having the intellectual curiosity to simply ask. The moment I try to assume anything about a person,...anyone,...I'm probably wrong,...at least in part.

The other part is the lack "social reciprocity",...another common trait with autistics that often lead to a lack of communication and the ability to have true friends. Again, one has to understand the importance of reciprocity,...and if you have to fake it,...do it,...if that relationship is important to you.

Anxiety,...it takes many forms. For many men, regardless of being ND/NT status,...this is the root of a lot of "toxic" behaviors. Within the context of relationships, personal or business, many men have this "thing" about being the leader, being socially dominant,...they want to be respected, they want the power,...and when those things don't seem to be happening, or that status is somehow being threatened, then that anxiety rears it's ugly head. The toxic behaviors are often about retaining control,...mentally and physically,...and can range from those tiny little "joking" remarks that seem innocent, but aren't (death by a thousand cuts), to treating the other person as if they are not important, that they have "stupid ideas", methodically breaking down the other person's self-esteem, to controlling the social interactions of the other person on-line and in person, to full on mental and physical abuse. When anxiety transitions to frustration and anger,...get the F out of there. It's these types of behaviors that separate those "betas" from the true "alphas". The "alphas" are attracted to other "alphas" and will literally go out of their way, even to their detriment, to support their partners careers, thoughts, ideas, etc,...and are not afraid of failure,...they roll with the "punches" they get and move forward as a team,...if one takes the lead, the other has their hands on their back pushing them forward. Traditionally, when we think of wild animals, most often there is an "alpha male and female" that leads the group,...but with modern, civilized humans, being more "physically capable" may not play into it at all,...it's the psychology, rather than the physicality.

@yogabanana, it seems you are dealing with rather "classic" autistic traits,...but obviously, how it is manifesting itself in terms of behavior is more the issue. Obviously, understanding the reasons for the behavior is important, but how to deal with it is highly individualized. I am not sure if any of this makes sense or hits home with you, but obviously, if he is so "shut down" that he is unwilling to communicate, understand, learn, and change his behaviors,...save yourself a lot of years of unhappiness, and find someone better. Life is way too short to be unhappy.

One thing I have learned from 35 years in healthcare, some people really don't want to be helped. Sure, they will come into the hospital wanting us to fix them, but if what brought them there was a result of their lifestyle,...and they don't want to change,...they will be back,...or dead. It's madness. Same thing here with your relationship,...if he doesn't want to change,...cut that "kite string" and let it fly away,...move on with your life. Sure, you'll feel sadness and guilt,...initially,...but you won't be stuck for years being unhappy. As a wise investor would say, "Don't look at the upfront cost,...look at money saved and earned later." Invest in yourself.