Alexithymia

[wyverary]

I did a cursory search of this site to see if there were any specific discussions of this condition, but I only found passing mentions of it. So I'll go ahead and start a new thread about it.

From Wikipedia:

Alexithymia is defined by:[9]

1. difficulty identifying feelings and distinguishing between feelings and the bodily sensations of emotional arousal
2. difficulty describing feelings to other people
3. constricted imaginal processes, as evidenced by a scarcity of fantasies
4. a stimulus-bound, externally oriented cognitive style.

As a teenager, my psychiatrist suggested that it was likely that I had it. I was recently reminded of the condition's existence, and decided to learn a little bit about it. It's definitely very common among those on the autism spectrum, but what intrigued me was the third bullet point: I see many on here who certainly have very active imaginations. Me, I've never been able to fabricate a story, or imagine what a character might look like when I read a book.

The thing is, I think I've gotten a little bit better at identifying and explaining my emotions, but I wonder if that's a result of many years of intensive psychotherapy and life experiences.

Has anyone else been diagnosed? What are your experiences/thoughts on it?

wyv

 

[Wilson Lam]

Hi, I may not have been officially diagnosed with alexithymia yet, but I often do feel as if I don't know how I feel and therefore can't tell others. On the other hand, I do have quite the hyperactive imagination. Also, sometimes I just find myself in the most awkward convos ever, often because of something I might've said, or simply because I didn't quite care abt what the others were talking about.

 

[Randomperson]

I am 99.9997521% sure I am alexithymiatic.

 

[Cecile]

Hello everyone,
I hope I don't sound insensitive in the way I phrase my questions below. (English isn't my first language and it shows especially with topics I don't understand well.)

I have read about alexithymia, and how it is difficult for (most? many?) aspies to identify how they feel, especially the "more subtle shades" of emotions/feelings. I have seen an aspie friend not be aware of his stress/frustration until he snaps (at someone/ for something unrelated). The first times I witnessed this, he didn't seem able to ackowledge the stress /frustration afterwards either, but realised it days (or weeks?) later. It seemed to happen less and less over time, though. More recently, he began being aware of it as he was snapping (and stopped). This had me wondering :

Is alexithymia something that aspies can "improve by working on it" to some extent?

Or can it be "selective", like mutism?

Him and I had an out-of-the blue conversation about our relationship that went on/off, on/off this past year (and had me struggle due to too much ongoing contact after we broke up). We talked about finding someone interesting as a friend/acquaintance (even a public personality) vs seeing someone as a love interest. Even though he has had many relationships, including one where he was, in his own words "madly in love", he seems like he has a hard time feeling the difference between those two kinds of interests...

Can alexithymia "evolve" /can you become unable to tell how you feel about people?
Is alexithymia something that just varies all the time and you never know when it comes and goes?

Of course, when you meet a new person, getting to know her is necessary before you can tell if and how you find her interesting. And I can see how it may take longer, even much longer for an aspie. But as you spend months and months seeing each other weekly, in various activities, working on projects, chatting profusely almost every day about life, values, work, tastes, etc., dating on/off and being intimate a few times... Is it possible that you still don't know, after over a year and a half has passed, and even in retrospect when the relationship is behind you?

 

[Judge]

Is alexithymia something that aspies can "improve by working on it" to some extent?

I'd think that like most traits of those on the spectrum, it depends on the individual varying in severity. However I really have no idea whether such a condition can actually improve or regress.

It's a good question though, considering I'm just not really sure if I have this to some lesser degree. Just another reason perhaps why I continually question my own ability to empathize with others on some levels. It's confusing to me.

But even if one does pick up on NT queues to mimic behavior, (I have) that strikes me as a coping mechanism more than what I'd call a significant improvement of the condition itself. Then again from the perspective of NTs if one is less offensive as a result, I suppose from their point of view it might be an "improvement". Hmmmmm....

 

[Cecile]

But even if one could pick up on NT queues to mimic behavior, that strikes me as a coping mechanism more than what I'd call a significant improvement of the condition itself. Then again from the perspective of NTs if one is less offensive as a result, I suppose from their point of view it might be an "improvement". Hmmmmm....

Just to make sure I didn't create any misunderstanding in my initial post, it is only alexithymia that I refer to when I ask about "possible improvement", not Asperger's/Autism. I mean, within the limits of my NT-ness, whereas I can see why/how some aspie traits are assets for you, I tend to perceive alexithymia more as an inconvenience, not just when interacting with NTs, but for yourself (uncertainty /doubts can be complicated or stressful even when they don't involve another person).

As for the ability to mimic behavior, it probably is a coping mechanism as you say, but, again within my limits as an NT, I tend to believe that it can go beyond that. All humans, from the earliest age, assimilate knowledge by mimicking... I don't really see it as improving a condition (and pleasing NTs), but more as learning a language, towards better mutual communication /understanding for the benefit of both parties. (We NTs don't really mimic you in return, but we can learn to recognize "aspie cues", if I may call them that. My friend's face, voice and gestures/postures may not be "NT expressive", but they convey clues about his anxiety level or sensory discomfort. There is a "micro-stimming" he does with his fingers, fists clenching under the table during a group meal or meeting, etc.)

 

[Judge]

Just to make sure I didn't create any misunderstanding in my initial post, it is only alexithymia that I refer to when I ask about "possible improvement", not Asperger's/Autism. I mean, within the limits of my NT-ness, whereas I can see why/how some aspie traits are assets for you, I tend to perceive alexithymia more as an inconvenience, not just when interacting with NTs, but for yourself (uncertainty /doubts can be complicated or stressful even when they don't involve another person).

No misunderstanding-I think. I'm just thinking of alexithymia in terms of being comorbid to ASD.

 

[Suzanne]

First, your English is fantastic

I am very like this. Someone asks how I am and I honestly have no idea how to respond. I end up saying: surviving and get a look of shock and: oh life can't be that bad!

I have learned that most people say this, out of politeness, and so, do not really want to know

 

[Cecile]

First, your English is fantastic

I am very like this. Someone asks how I am and I honestly have no idea how to respond. I end up saying: surviving and get a look of shock and: oh life can't be that bad!

I have learned that most people say this, out of politeness, and so, do not really want to know

First, thank you! The "hi how are you" is indeed just a "way of greeting", yet when it is a good/ close friend or relative, they are usually interested in more than the " fine thanks" formal reply. Having said that, if I may, I understand that "how you feel in general on a given regular day" doesn't always translate as a precise, clear, unique answer... But what if you are asked : "how do you feel about (something specific: about going to x place, about doing x thing, about x food, x topic, about a person)"? If we are talking about something you know, and you have had much time to process, is it still as difficult to know how you really feel?

 

[aj]

I find this hard to understand but i hope i got the right picture. I use to care for people that i thought was nice and always tried to say the right thing and try my best to understand and that was very difficult and frustrating for them and for me, i use to get a great and proud feeling for myself that i actually helped someone and it grew on me. I think what made me worse was seeing everyone the same and not in a good way. I was Being bullied, not appreciated, ignored, only wanted when needed, used.... So i did try and be friendly but this is all i got through growing up and even now. I have no idea why it always ended up like this, it might of been something i said and they misunderstood or i could of done something that i didn't mean to i have no idea or it could actually be them. But i feel like i got pushed away from talking to people more than before even the ones i don't know. I feel like I'm almost a mute to new people because of bad experiences and with anxiety as normal is too much to deal with and not even close to being worth going through. I have my views and understanding, also i assume what people are like that i come across. Some seem nice but turns out they're the same as the people i come across and it takes a while to find that out. So to save me time/problems/stress/anxiety and regrets, i avoid everyone apart from the nice people i stuck with most of my life. Im not saying i was normal before I'm saying i did try and it made things worse. Also i believe that people are stuck with their own opinion and not opened minded. Which is why i don't tell them things which i find difficult to share. I always felt comfterble when I'm alone and happy with that life style. I hope i don't offend i just thought this would help to see it from my views. I find my anxiety/routine and interests keep me away from bad experiences and keep me away from things i don't want to be apart of. I hope this answers your question and my point is why should i try when this is what i get, and my question is always the same: why is it Aspie's have to change for people that think its us that has the problems. I think people should work on how to treat people in a respectful way and maybe i would do the same if i felt more welcomed/understood/respected and appreciated. I think people joke too much and it can hurt, they say its just a joke and it angers me because one how am i ment to find insults, name calling, lies and touching funny? Life is a joke to them which brings them happiness and me frustration/anger/overwhelmed/upset.Please don't let this offend I'm just trying to explain best i can and show you why i have no interest of other people apart from the ones that i grew up with and family. 2 friends and their family also my family is all i have and need. I do struggle to understand them at times but i feel comfterble with them and i trust them which i don't normally trust people. Again please dont let this offend you, it could be just be a huge mis-understanding but what I've explained is my views on people i came across. This took me an nearly an hour to explain and edit so please try to understand.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I struggle with identifying my own emotions. In the past I wouldn't even really notice that I was feeling anything until the emotions manifested themselves in some obvious way, such as crying or snapping.

However in recent years, I have developed a list of 'indicators' which I use to identify my stronger emotions. Such as: when I'm sad I tend to read angsty or violent stories, or, when I'm stressed I clench my teeth which makes my jaw hurt. I also stim a lot and this is highly dependant upon my emotions, for example I skip when I'm happy, and wiggle my toes when anxious, so I use that to identify how I'm feeling.

I've managed to identify these 'indicators' after several years of paying very close attention to my own behaviour, and asking my family to describe how they physically feel when experience particular emotions (such as my mums words: " being nervous feels like an uncomfortable clenchy feeling in your tummy"), after deciding in was necessary in my teens when I developed clinical depression without even noticing. However, the mild, ongoing emotions which I'm told are supposed to be pretty much constant in between stronger feelings still elude me.

 

[Cecile]

I struggle with identifying my own emotions. In the past I wouldn't even really notice that I was feeling anything until the emotions manifested themselves in some obvious way, such as crying or snapping.

However in recent years, I have developed a list of 'indicators' which I use to identify my stronger emotions. Such as: when I'm sad I tend to read angsty or violent stories, or, when I'm stressed I clench my teeth which makes my jaw hurt. I also stim a lot and this is highly dependant upon my emotions, for example I skip when I'm happy, and wiggle my toes when anxious, so I use that to identify how I'm feeling.

I've managed to identify these 'indicators' after several years of paying very close attention to my own behaviour, and asking my family to describe how they physically feel when experience particular emotions (such as my mums words: " being nervous feels like an uncomfortable clenchy feeling in your tummy"), after deciding in was necessary in my teens when I developed clinical depression without even noticing. However, the mild, ongoing emotions which I'm told are supposed to be pretty much constant in between stronger feelings still elude me.

Thank you very much for your testimonial, this is very informative for me. If having your family members describe how they physically feel when sad, angry, etc. helps you "connect the dots" between your own physical sensations and the corresponding emotions, then I guess that it is possible, at least to some extent and for some people, to improve by "working on it". You reminded me of this chart that I once saw going around on Facebook : http://www.prevention.com/sites/default/files/Emotionbodies.jpg

 

[radasp]

I think it's good that you are curious: Alexithymia is a major obstacle in understanding Asperger individuals. Social humans believe that words are accurate matches for real objects or processes. They confuse language with physical reality.

I have personal experience with this curious manifestation – to the extent that at times I have difficulty distinguishing between a physical illness like the flu and being emotionally upset. It does sometimes take me some time to “know” what I’m “feeling." That is, it's difficult to attach a word to a feeling. Commonly I have no reaction at all to. Why should I? Why must every moment of every day consist of emotional engagement in unimportant, fleeting exchanges with people or in constructing monstrous facades of hatred, revenge, subterfuge and power struggles over – What? Emotions are vital to social people, not to me. Somehow they feel that fake expressions of caring and hostility mean something. I feel deeply about values and principles.

 

[Cecile]

Social humans believe that words are accurate matches for real objects or processes. They confuse language with physical reality.

I guess being an NT makes me a "social human", and as such, I have to disagree. Languages are codes. Written or spoken words, symbols, numbers, gestures are all signs used in various languages to allow data input and output between an emittor and a receptor, whether they are lovers, scientists performing an experiment in the lab, or ground control to Major Tom. Said signs have become official over time through gradual use, evolution and consensus. That is how "2" became a way of expressing "II" and how the names of the various emotions/feelings have been determined in the various languages. There is no more confusing language /reality in saying "I feel sad" than in saying "this is my bench". But you may believe that my bench would be better as a table in your apartment. And you may question the existence of my sadness if you don't feel it in you.

Why must every moment of every day consist of emotional engagement in unimportant, fleeting exchanges with people or in constructing monstrous facades of hatred, revenge, subterfuge and power struggles over – What? Emotions are vital to social people, not to me.

"Social people" don't all go through their days obsessing about emotions, checking every minute if they or the others around feel something... What you just described is not "social", but troubled, overly anxious, emotionally unstable, paranoid, manipulative...

Somehow they feel that fake expressions of caring and hostility mean something. I feel deeply about values and principles.

Is that what you meant by confusing language and reality? I won't argue with you that various people do fake emotions and play games to get away with whatever it is they want... But the only reason it can work for some, is because they *imitate* expressions and behaviors that have been observed for the longuest time in quite a lot of genuine, sincere "social people" who also have values and principles at their core and who behave with integrity. Again, you may question the authenticity of expressions that don't come naturally to you.

 

[radasp]

So much for saying you want to know what Aspergers experience and then immediately rejecting it because it doesn't conform to your NT preconceptions.

 

[Cecile]

So much for saying you want to know what Aspergers experience and then immediately rejecting it because it doesn't conform to your NT preconceptions.

Hm... What I reject (or disagree with) is not YOUR own experience, but statements about THEM the "social people"/ NTs -- which don't conform to who I am and many, many NTs are.
I appreciate that you did share your experience in another part of your initial post:

I have personal experience with this curious manifestation – to the extent that at times I have difficulty distinguishing between a physical illness like the flu and being emotionally upset. It does sometimes take me some time to “know” what I’m “feeling." That is, it's difficult to attach a word to a feeling. Commonly I have no reaction at all to. Why should I?

 

[radasp]

Hm... What I reject (or disagree with) is not YOUR own experience, but statements about THEM the "social people"/ NTs -- which don't conform to who I am and many, many NTs are.
I appreciate that you did share your experience in another part of your initial post:

I think you will find that many many Asperger's avoid NTs because of social "rules" that permit lies, bullying, unfairness, prejudice and little ability to understand the factual nature of reality. It is not a valid argument to say "I'm not like that." You can't erase the inequality built into a system by defending your own ego.

 

[epath13]

I began recognizing how I feel after working on it. And it's still work in progress. I started working on recognizing, naming, defining personal emotions when I was about 5 years old, so it's been over 30 years now.
I noticed that it's much easier for me to see my emotions as waves of color or as symbols rather then applying common terms to them, it doesn't mean I can't identify them but I feel the common terms aren't accurate enough in many cases.
As for recognizing that you're overwhelmed before a complete meltdown, it also takes practice. Some people might need to work longer on it, for some it takes less time.

 

[ilovetochat87]

I didn't know where else to post this at but I have some issues. I believe I suffer from a little bit of alexithymia. I thought it was better as I aged bc I took classes for social skills in high school but I still qualify according to this online alexithymia test. My test results are:
- difficulty issuing feelings 13 points <15-18> no alexithymic traits
-difficulty describing feelings 8 <10-12> no alexithymic traits
-various interpretation of feelingsfeelings 15 points <8-9>
-externally oriented thinking 19 points <18-21> some alexithymic traits
-restricted imaginative process 18 points<18-21> some alexithymic traits
-problematic interpersonal relationship 23 points<15-18> high alexithymic traits
-sexual difficulties and disinterest 18 points <10-12> high alexithymic traits

A piece of an article I read says:
Vicarious interpretation on feelings and sexual feelings n disinterest. Which target interpersonal behaviors co extensive with alexithymia. Of the seconds of these discussions reveals common interest of difficulties with sexual activities. With disturbing bodily sensations. (Associated with affect). Personal confusion regarding sexual expectation and feelings of others. Although sexual libido may be functioning on normal level, the psuediphobia surrounding the emotional component of sexual intimacy is manifest as reluctance to indulge in sexual act or as preference for sexual encountered involving lore emotional intensity.

I have trouble getting into it. I don't really see the craze in sex. I have loved each boyfriend I've had. but think we can be together and love just as good without doing it. My thing with relationships is once I get to the stage of "love" i Literally just want to be in their every presence and be in all that they are. Smelling their every smell. cuddling. just being in every bit that they are. I personally think that one never needs to do "it" and yet they could still be just as in love. and they can still be just as fulfilled in their relationship . My mom always says that God intended for us to be together and to do those things or we wouldnt. she always says that it is natural we are meant to do that and that it's really hard to find somebody who doesn't want to because it's a natural instinct and we all want it we are supposed to. Not that we are all addicts at it, but that it is natural to want it and to do it. And that if you don't want to it's a little off and it's very difficult to find somebody that is on the same page as me unless they are asexual meaning they are opposed to anything other than platonic relationships. am I weird? I think that the whole alexithymia plays a role in why I feel this way towards relationships and that article I quoted sense to me and makes me think that that's correct. anybody else have this feeling or approach like I do?

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

To be clear, asexuals are not opposed to anything other than platonic relationships, they simply do not experience sexual attraction/ have no innate desire for partnered sex. Many asexuals do want, and have, romantic relationships, and while many are sex averse there are also many who are happy to have sex for their partners sake.