ABA and the Denver model

[doragirl]

Happy New Year/New Year's Eve folks!

These forums have been so helpful and reassuring. I thought I'd share my latest concern that is weighing on my mind and ask for feedback, especially from the neurodiverse crowd.

My dear 4 year old son's ASD diagnosis report includes recommendations for support. Many of them we already had in place (SLP, OT, supported preschool) but there was also a recommendation for support from a Board Certified Behavioural Analyst (BCBA). BCBA seems to be an occupation overseen by a pseudo-regulatory/member association. The recommendation seems very boiler plate in the report as it suggests an BCBA could help with my son's social skills, rigidity and enhance emotional regulation. From that list, I would say that only the first item is something that is an area of concern. My son has no problems with transitioning, changing routines or surprises and only has emotional challenges when he is tired, something I would chalk up to typical 4 year old behaviour.

Nevertheless, I am finding myself looking into how BCBA could help my son as we do receive substantial funding with his diagnosis. There is a provider in the building where my son goes to preschool that I have spoken with. A number of children from my son's class attend their therapy several times per week. They offer the "denver model". I quickly looked it up and the first website in my search was a page on the autism speaks website (red flag?). There is also suggestion that this model is considered ABA or similar (another red flag?). Are all programs with these names created equal? How do I know when my son can't really convey complex thoughts and feelings to me yet?

I don't want to sign my son up for anything that will be harmful to him or that aims to change him to accommodate a neurotypical world.

Any thoughts or advice? I am struggling to find BCBA providers and with the amount of appointments and therapies he already has, it is getting hard to schedule/drive/attend and work a full time job/look after my other child. It was just nice that the provider I spoke with is in the same building as my son's school already, however, convenience does not trump safety and efficacy of therapy.

Thank you!

 

[Outdated]

I grew up in a culture that has very little trust in any form of psychological manipulation, and being autistic I'm far more wary of it than most. I like the way you described your thoughts above and I believe your instincts are correct.

Your son might not have the vocabulary to explain what he feels but he is also likely to resent any attempts at manipulation.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Happy New Year/New Year's Eve folks!

Happy new year to you too.

but there was also a recommendation for support from a Board Certified Behavioural Analyst (BCBA).

Red Flag

BCBA seems to be an occupation overseen by a pseudo-regulatory/member association.

Not recomended by adult autists themselves? Red Flag.

The recommendation seems very boiler plate in the report as it suggests an BCBA could help with my son's social skills, rigidity and enhance emotional regulation.

Vague suggestions, disclosure autists traits as handicaps... Red Flag.

From that list, I would say that only the first item is something that is an area of concern.

Agree, social skills are important. Also learning to think in various ways not just in black and white mode, also to learn about alexithymia and emotions and emotional regulation in autism vs NT population. Learning is important.

My son has no problems with transitioning, changing routines or surprises and only has emotional challenges when he is tired, something I would chalk up to typical 4 year old behaviour.

Great, sounds like a perfect candidate to learn at home as a human instead of being trained like an animal.

Nevertheless, I am finding myself looking into how BCBA could help my son as we do receive substantial funding with his diagnosis.

Many sales speechs include some gift at the begining. Sectas do it a lot. That you was "helped" with his diagnose doesnt mean that you must do a mistake now in exchange. Thats a logic flaw on yourself. Red Flag for you as a parent. Also, think in diagnose yourself just in case. With a proffesional recomended by other autists, not by a self proclamed semy regulated group that suggest things... Online if needed.

There is a provider in the building where my son goes to preschool that I have spoken with. A number of children from my son's class attend their therapy several times per week. They offer the "denver model".

They say that when you have meet an autist you have meet ONE autists. Autist traits and needs are so, SO variated that no "model" sounds like a good thing. Red Flag.

I quickly looked it up and the first website in my search was a page on the autism speaks website (red flag?).

Autism speaks without letting autists speak... RED FLAG.

There is also suggestion that this model is considered ABA or similar (another red flag?).

Yes, behavoural sciences are to change behavours not to teach or support humans. Red Flag.

Are all programs with these names created equal?

Seems so. Promises not supported by science, seeing autism as a problem to be solved, force autists people to fake normality through trauma. Taking money from parents.

How do I know when my son can't really convey complex thoughts and feelings to me yet?

Easy. BY NOT LETTING YOUR SON TO GO THERE.

I don't want to sign my son up for anything that will be harmful to him or that aims to change him to accommodate a neurotypical world.

Im not so sure. Some part of you seem to want to do it despite all the red flags you discovered by yourself. How many red flags do you need?

Any thoughts or advice?

Dont suscribe your son there. Diagnose yourself with a good profesional recomended by autists. Search online, start whatching YouTube videos made by autists themselves. Read autists books recomended by autists. You have a very good list here in this forum.

I am struggling to find BCBA providers and with the amount of appointments and therapies he already has, it is getting hard to schedule/drive/attend and work a full time job/look after my other child.

And here we got to the central point. You are too busy to take care of your son so you want to delegate it to whatever fancy association that make promises to you. Thats it.

Real therapists work with families to teach them how to accomodate them to their autistic childs. They work with childs and parents some hours a week and teach the parents how to understand better their kids, how to do visual supports, how to anticipate events, how to communicate, and how do work autistic minds. No proffesional therapy is like a place to dump your children so others will take care of them.

It was just nice that the provider I spoke with is in the same building as my son's school already, however, convenience does not trump safety and efficacy of therapy.

True.

Thank you!

You are welcome.

 

[Rodafina]

My experience working alongside ABA and BCBA professionals has been very bad. They do not support the actual well being of an autistic child and the organizations typically do not have the resources necessary to properly care for the children.

Another angle to research is the job sections, advertising for ABA and BCBA therapists. The qualifications are very low and the turnover is extremely high. Don’t be fooled by the term therapist here.

The system, when implemented to a T, still does not support learning and degrades self-esteem, individuality, and potential strengths. The fundamental design of the “therapy“ is not in accordance with the ability for young autistic children to thrive.

 

[Homulilly]

First off, I’ll just chime in that ABA is perceived very negatively on this forum. (Although I do agree.) BCBA is just the person who conducts ABA, who has more qualifications than a behavioral analyst (BA).

My experience with ABA as NT: I worked for a little while in an ABA setting, and I hated it. I still don’t know if it was just that my coworkers were poorly trained being where we are, or if ABA is actually that horrendous across the world. The kids were viewed only as deficiencies, and basically whoever acted the most NT were the favorites.

The recommendation seems very boiler plate in the report as it suggests an BCBA could help with my son's social skills, rigidity and enhance emotional regulation.

IMO most introductions of anything are usually boilerplate. For example, it’s almost always detecting irrational thought patterns and elevating the mood for depression, building self-awareness and empowerment for low self-esteem, helping with social skills and rigidity for ASD, etc. etc. So I wouldn’t say this is a red flag per se.

As for whether or not you should work with a BCBA (because some parts of me hope that ABA is a bit more sane in your part of the world), see if you could observe a session first. Observe how the therapist interacts with and thinks of the child. If the child seems uncomfortable, see if the therapist accommodates to that. And, if you do want to send your child to a BCBA for social skills, ask how they might do that. If the methods are basically making your child appear more NT, ok, big red flag, take your leave.

There is a provider in the building where my son goes to preschool that I have spoken with. A number of children from my son's class attend their therapy several times per week.

I’m a bit confused. Do you mean the children see a BCBA, or different types of therapy?

And here we got to the central point. You are too busy to take care of your son so you want to delegate it to whatever fancy association that make promises to you. Thats it.

I think you’re jumping to conclusions here. The OP is really just pointing out their life situation atm, and yes, raising an ASD child is a lot of work. Probably just weighing the pros and cons of sending their child to a BCBA.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

First off, I’ll just chime in that ABA is perceived very negatively on this forum. (Although I do agree.)

So you dont like it.

My experience with ABA as NT: I worked for a little while in an ABA setting, and I hated it.

Actually you hated it.

I still don’t know if it was just that my coworkers were poorly trained being where we are, or if ABA is actually that horrendous across the world.

Its horrendous in your experience, and you hope it would be better in some other place of the world.

The kids were viewed only as deficiencies, and basically whoever acted the most NT were the favorites.

Aha, yes, thats how they see us. And all kids ABA do learn exactly that they are worthy just when they mask properly. Being themselves is a mistake to be corrected.

As for whether or not you should work with a BCBA (because some parts of me hope that ABA is a bit more sane in your part of the world), see if you could observe a session first.

But despite you hate it, despite is "that horrendous", despite being seing as deficencies... Just try it. Lets see how it goes with your kid.... REALLY?

In middle age people was tortured to get healed of being Gay, it was horrendous, nowadays we dont do that, but how about you go to a session an try it with your kids?

Cant you actually recomend that person a therapy that DO work? Instead of telling her to just try something that have caused deep trauma to thousands of autists childs...

And I am the one jumping to conclussions...

Really... Whats next? To recomend covid patients to drink bleach just in case it works?

Some Americans Are Tragically Still Drinking Bleach As A Coronavirus ‘Cure’

It’s a potentially deadly mistake.

www.forbes.com

I do know that most autists in this forum are against any way of confrontation, but ABA is serious stuff and its harming a lot of childs and families.

 

[TheWaterColor]

actually doing a little research about that OP

 

[GypsyMoth]

Hi @doragirl!

Happy New Year!

So, I am still fairly new to all of this myself. (Although, I expect that someday I'm going to get called out for saying this!) Last September I stumbled on ABA therapy and wondered what it was. What I read about it was either over-the-top positive or under-the-table negative. There is such a divide over it, you really will have to do your own homework in order to make the best decision for you, your son, and the rest of your family, as whatever your son will go through will be experienced by the rest of the family as well.

I am not here to defend ABA therapy. But I do have a couple of positive things to say after some negative things and, hopefully, through it I may yet be able to provide you with some thoughts to consider as you embark on your research.

1. Define the terms. This means finding for yourself working definitions of the terms in popular use. If you know the language in use, and how the terms are used by various groups, then you're going to be able to navigate the meanings behind the terms much more adroitly. When you talk with your son's doctors and therapists using the right vocabulary, it's going to send the message that "this mom's involved. Don't mess with her." (Hopefully.)

Terms you will want to define and know, and don't be afraid of looking into where these terms came from, either, or how they are currently in use:
- Autism
- Asberger's
- DSM-V
- ASD1, -2, -3
- The Medical Model vs. the Psychological Model of Autism, and why it matters
- Abelism

2. Become an expert on everything autism. Familiarize yourself with its common traits, what your child's educational process might look like, what your school's policies & aids are, who are the people you can reach out to. You are your son's personal advocate. I'm sure you will do a phenomenal job.

3. Figure out ahead of time how to deal with the rude or ignorant things others may say to you, your son, or otherwise. My brother is an anchondroplastic dwarf (and has ADHD) and there is no hiding it. I dealt with it by either brushing off the comments or educating the person, but his experience was very different. Now that he has a daughter (also a dwarf), he is able to help her deal with these things a bit better.

4. Here are two enlightening views against ABA Therapy. Both are from an autistic point of view.

Invisible Abuse: ABA and the things only autistic people can see

One of the most hotly-contended points of division between the adult autistic community and the neurotypical parents of autistic children: explained.

neuroclastic.com

5. And in favor of ABA Therapy, I'm going to be so bold as to offer up--again--an autistic point of view. But you're going to have to Google this one--I didn't save the link. Have you met Temple Grandin yet? You should. Now, while I don't know what her overall stand is on ABA therapy, I did hear either a YouTube or TedTalks video where she made a very positive plug for ABA therapy. (And it made sense.) To be fair, she has been an advocate for educating the public about autism for a lot longer than a lot of people (no, not all!) on this forum have been alive, so she has a lot of very well-considered points to consider.

7. I must not have kept the link on this one, either, but there is another point I want to raise--money. (The point would be better made with the link to the article this came from, but alas.) ABA therapy is extremely expensive. Federal funding is available--but only for ABA therapy. It's a government supported monopoly. There are alternative therapies out there, but it's dubious as to whether or not your insurance will cover them. Since your son has already been identified as having autism, it's likely he's already been experiencing trouble at school or day care. I don't have an answer for you. Just, keep doing what you're already doing by reaching out and learning what you can, and you guys will come through this all right.

8. Yes, some of us get an attitude about certain things. Just give us a moment & once we realize you're sincere about learning/helping, then we might come on board. Some of that is just autistic bluntess. But some of that may also be Alexthymia at work--another word to add to your list of definitions you should know (though not all autists have it). Or mind-blindness. And, some of it is just personality, or a bad day.

9. Get to know the extensive resources within the autistic community. For example, Neuroclastic has put out a helpful introduction to autism, written by autistics and for those living with autism and for those around them--parents, friends, teachers. Here's the link:

The Guide is here! Understanding the Autistic Mind 1

It’s finally here, and you can download Understanding the Autistic Mind, Volume 1 in English or Spanish, full versions or plain text versions for screen readers.

neuroclastic.com

10. Get to know the community! We're glad you're here.


Like I mentioned, I'm still fairly new to this myself. But I am grateful for the wealth of information that is out there for free.

If I could leave you with a final thought. As someone who entered into this extremely confident that I did not have autism--I was researching it for someone else--it's not what I thought it was. I am, however, quite possibly on the spectrum. I am not disabled, nor would I ever accept such a definition of myself as being such. I believe a supportive and influential community far outweighs the reliance on medical 'authorities' because what matters most is having a sense of belonging, friendship, and the ability to reach out for help or have the opportunity to help others in need.

And that's what you've got here.


GypsyMoth

 

[GypsyMoth]

I do know that most autists in this forum are against any way of confrontation, but ABA is serious stuff and its harming a lot of childs and families.

This is a very good point. It is my personal opinion, too. She should, however, be allowed the opportunity to discover that for herself.

The reason why is, a fact discovered is more valuable than a fact handed out. If she does her research, she'll figure this out for herself.

 

[Rodafina]

8. Yes, some of us get an attitude about certain things. Just give us a moment & once we realize you're sincere about learning/helping, then we might come on board. Some of that is just autistic bluntess. But some of that may also be Alexthymia at work--another word to add to your list of definitions you should know (though not all autists have it). Or mind-blindness. And, some of it is just personality, or a bad day.

I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying that those of us who are ardently against ABA because of lived experience have “an attitude“ about it?

I think there is value in hearing lived experience. The people who have experienced or been witness to ABA have strong feelings about it because it can be highly detrimental and extremely negative. I believe we share these opinions forcefully and with bias because it is evident that OP cares for her son and so do we. We want to protect children from this.

It is clearly demonstrated that OP is dedicated to learning/helping. I doubt that is a notion that most of us must realize is sincere.

 

[GypsyMoth]

I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying that those of us who are ardently against ABA because of lived experience have “an attitude“ about it?

I think there is value in hearing lived experience. The people who have experienced or been witness to ABA have strong feelings about it because it can be highly detrimental and extremely negative. I believe we share these opinions forcefully and with bias because it is evident that OP cares for her son and so do we. We want to protect children from this.

It is clearly demonstrated that OP is dedicated to learning/helping. I doubt that is a notion that most of us must realize is sincere.

Hi @Rodafina,

The reference is to an undercurrent I found present in the above posts. My address of it is intentionally oblique, though what I am addressing in point 8 is not ABA Therapy.

Please be careful about turning my statement in point 8 into a strawman, which is what you are doing when replying to an assumed position. If you have a question, just ask.

Since you did ask, I was addressing the tug-of-war being pointed to in the above posts. The sub-text behind it extends beyond this thread. To someone new to this community, such as our OP, and especially to an NT, I don’t think that comes off very well. (Yes, I am again being oblique.)

About the rest. Keep in mind that the emotional argument seeks to win the argument through force of will. Winning an argument through force of will is a weak position morally. Turning to bias is also a weak approach. Unless you're a trial lawyer winning over a jury or an advertiser skilled in mass-marketing, relying on bias never truly wins an argument. Rather, those sorts of arguments not only tend to undermine your position, they may also be easily dismissed.

Now, lived experience ought to be valued more highly than it is. You might win over the OP, and you will certainly influence some readers who are just scrolling through. But while it might win the battle, it cannot turn the tide of war.

The clash between lived experience and ABA practice is philosophical. The case before us --ABA Therapy itself-- operates at a philosophical level very few people here are able to take on. And I can.

Someday I may.


For now, I'm advocating that a presentation of the facts will allow both the OP and other readers the opportunity to discover for themselves what the matter is, and why it is imperative for them to seek out an informed understanding of the matter before making their own decision about it.

 

[Rodafina]

address of it is intentionally oblique, though what I am addressing in point 8 is not ABA Therapy.

It seemed as if you were addressing us, the commenters, not ABA therapy at all.

Why be oblique? This is a place for clarity.

… If you have a question, just ask.

Since you did ask, I

I am super confused.

To someone new to this community, such as our OP, and especially to an NT, I don’t think that comes off very well. (Yes, I am again being oblique.)

Doragirl is not new to the community. She has always been able to take our opinions with a grain of salt and learn whatever she wants to from it.

And please, for clarity’s sake, why be oblique?

The clash between lived experience and ABA practice is philosophical. The case before us --ABA Therapy itself-- operates at a philosophical level very few people here are able to take on. And I can.

This feels very condescending to people who have lived through it. None of us is better than another, we are each here with our unique experiences, trying to share them.

Please note, my original issue was with the fact that in point number eight you criticized other forum members and that seemed unhelpful.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

If I say 2+2=4 shouting it is as true as if I say 2+2=4 whispering.

Emotions do not change truth, nor do change science. Opinions, by the way, neither change truth nor science.

The scientific evidence against ABA is very strong. ABA its outdated. Way outdated.

Long-term ABA Therapy Is Abusive: A Response to Gorycki, Ruppel, and Zane - Advances in Neurodevelopmental Disorders

Objective In a recent response to a review of ABA literature, methodologies, and ethics, the authors of the response attempted to negate the compilation of research presented. The goal of their response was to advocate for the continued use of ABA and attempt to demonstrate that it is in fact...

link.springer.com

This kind of approachs were used with LGTB community, of course it was a disaster:

Conversion therapy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am personally against the middle term. Im quite black & white on science. If most people say that 2+2=6 and science says 2+2=4 im not going to say 5 to be friendly with everybody.

If society uses slavery, im not going to defend slavery to be "friendly". Im going to be angry about that.
If society abuse of women, im not going to defend the abuse to be "friendly" (like Froid did). Im going to be angry about it.
If society abuse of LGTB people, im not going to defend the abuse.

There are no middle term to things that are Wrong and do not work.

@GypsyMoth you said that Temple Granding defended ABA. This is from Temple Granding personal web, I dont think she defends ABA here:

Temple Grandin - Frequently Asked Questions

Even if she defended ABA, has she gone thougth ABA therapy herself? NO.

And thats the thing, the voices of autists people who have experienced ABA themselves are SILENCED. DISMINISED. ERASED. COVERED WITH WHITE NOISE.

@Rodafina has suffered ABA herself, so she is angry about ABA. Whats the reaction? To tell her she is being so emotional and erase her voice.

Did slaves had voice when slavery was a common practice? NO.

Did women had voice when women abuse was a common practice? NO.

Did LGTB had voice when LGTB abuse was a common practice? NO.

So where are the voices of the thousands of childs that experienced ABA to be cured? They are adults now? Where is their testimony to support ABA?

There is no single adult autist who experienced ABA themselves that recomend it. Wow. Not even one that I know.

But we can silence them because they are too emotional about it. Like we silenced black people, silenced women, silenced LGTB, silenced veterans of war and silence anybody who is not "society friendly".

No thanks. Not me.

 

[GypsyMoth]

The clash between lived experience and ABA practice is philosophical. The case before us --ABA Therapy itself-- operates at a philosophical level very few people here are able to take on. And I can.

This feels very condescending to people who have lived through it. None of us is better than another, we are each here with our unique experiences, trying to share them.

With all due respect, this misses the point of what I'm saying. Now, no offense is taken, but it does remind me as to why I don't do philosophy online. I made the mistake of thinking this was accessible enough and it is not. I am sorry about that.

I am, however, deeply aware and very deeply concerned that I am beginning to have enough pieces to understand the root underlying why adult autists are summarily dismissed by policymakers and the medical and/or psychological professions. My making this observation has nothing to do with being 'better'. Rather, it has everything to do with having the education and training necessary to identify and define the problem philosophically so that it may be weighed, evaluated, and a reasonable response made in reply. Let me be clear. This is not a matter of opinion. It is, very seriously, a matter of fact. Until that why is challenged--at the authority level of the medical/psychological community through its own scholarship --your opinion, my opinion, and everyone else's opinion is going to continue being dismissed.

 

[Rodafina]

Now, no offense is taken, but it does remind me as to why I don't do philosophy online….

… I am beginning to have enough pieces to understand the root underlying why adult autists are summarily dismissed by policymakers and the medical and/or psychological professions.

Deep offense is taken here. This is outrageous and I’m tired of the condescension.

I will no longer respond to this as I am derailing doragirl’s thread and her son and her desperate struggle to take care of him is the most important thing here.

 

[Stuttermabolur]

I concur with several of the posters before me, in that the best way forward is to look at what actual autistic people who have gone through ABA are saying, and it really seems like almost none of them would recommend it (at least I haven't encountered anyone) while several have been traumatized by it, including members of this forum.

I will no longer respond to this as I am derailing doragirl’s thread and her son and her desperate struggle to take care of him is the most important thing here.

I will.

@GypsyMoth, your first post was quite helpful, especially when it comes to terminology and more practical advice. However, talking in a veiled way about posters having "an attitude" is very condescending, especially when a lot of us (including yourself) get cut off or dismissed for being passionate or emotional about something by people around us. It was a pretty unnecessary dig which doesn't reflect well on you.

Please be careful about turning my statement in point 8 into a strawman, which is what you are doing when replying to an assumed position. If you have a question, just ask.

She literally did. She asked you a question, and then she made a general statement about lived experience. I did not see Rodafina strawmanning you or giving you an assumed position. You acknowledge her question in the next line which makes this seem like an unnecessary comment.

To someone new to this community, such as our OP, and especially to an NT, I don’t think that comes off very well. (Yes, I am again being oblique.)

Why not? The nice thing about forums is that you can hear a variety of arguments from people with all sorts of background and views, some of it more passionate and drawing from experience, others more impersonal owing to research or opinions. As long as people aren't being insulting, I don't see how that's a bad thing. As Rodafina said, simply not being oblique would make your statement easier to understand.

The case before us --ABA Therapy itself-- operates at a philosophical level very few people here are able to take on. And I can.

Someday I may.

This (and related statements) is what I find most disagreeable. While it is great to get a philosophical viewpoint of the issue, stating that ABA operates at a philosophical level which makes you better than others at discussing it is the sort of view which pushed me away from pursuing philosophy when I was younger. By all means, tackle this problem in a philosophical way using your education, it would no doubt be informative. However, there is no need to mention how since ABA therapy operates on a philosophical level (without providing any reasons for why that is), others are less able to take it on than you (how do you know?). If you really think so, why not let others make their arguments and then take them on with your counterarguments?

For now, I'm advocating that a presentation of the facts will allow both the OP and other readers the opportunity to discover for themselves what the matter is, and why it is imperative for them to seek out an informed understanding of the matter before making their own decision about it.

You mention this several times in your postings, yet that is quite literally what she is doing. She came to the forum to ask a question (get a more informed understanding) and got a response from several people who have different views of ABA. Of course she will be the one to make the final decision taking the views of others into account, but I also feel like other members have a right to say when they feel strongly about a choice. That is more info she can take into account.

With all due respect, this misses the point of what I'm saying. Now, no offense is taken, but it does remind me as to why I don't do philosophy online. I made the mistake of thinking this was accessible enough and it is not. I am sorry about that.

Why not explain your points with more clarity so they wouldn't be misunderstood? I really don't see much of an attempt being made. The timeline thus far has been you making a veiled comment about attitude, being deliberately oblique about it when called out and then apologizing about not being accessible enough when you get criticized for being condescending. I genuinely don't see much of an argument from you, philosophical or otherwise.

I am, however, deeply aware and very deeply concerned that I am beginning to have enough pieces to understand the root underlying why adult autists are summarily dismissed by policymakers and the medical and/or psychological professions.

I sure hope that's not what you mean, but how it comes across is that you think autists are justified in being dismissed because of the "attitude" on display here.

My making this observation has nothing to do with being 'better'. Rather, it has everything to do with having the education and training necessary to identify and define the problem philosophically so that it may be weighed, evaluated, and a reasonable response made in reply.

So, would you say that you are not in the group who the policymakers are understandably (if not justifiably) dismissing? You might say it has nothing to do with you being "better", but it comes across as the opposite when you seem to be distancing yourself from autism when it suits your needs. Do you also feel like your autistic coworkers or your best friend have the same attitude problem? Are they also a part of the puzzle you are putting together? Are you?

This is not a matter of opinion. It is, very seriously, a matter of fact.

It is a matter of opinion. You think your training/education makes you better suited to approach the problem than others, while other members of the forum are of the opinion that people who have gone through ABA therapy are better suited to comment on it. Saying it is a fact that you are better suited to comment on this doesn't make it so.

Until that why is challenged--at the authority level of the medical/psychological community through its own scholarship --your opinion, my opinion, and everyone else's opinion is going to continue being dismissed.

We are not writing a research paper to affect policy. A member of the public came here with a question, and people here are responding so that she can make an informed choice. I think many people here (myself included) would talk quite differently if we were trying to influence authority.

In general your final paragraph is deeply hurtful, as many autistic people are members of the medical/psychology community, are in social care profession or have fought for representation and against being silenced, so to hear another member of the forum say that society is justified in silencing us will understandably be taken badly. I think your arguments (whatever they are) would be much better received if you didn't make veiled comments against other members of the forum or criticize the autism community as a whole.

I'm actually very conflict avoidant and try not to partake in arguments when I can avoid it, but I felt it was necessary here as your comments can cause hurt and I know you can take better care to avoid it in the future, since I'm sure it isn't on purpose.

 

[GypsyMoth]

Dear @Rodafina and Every One else,

I am very sorry for my offense. It was not my intention to offend.
I have enjoyed your company and friendship and you all have become very important to me.
I am sorry.

With the utmost respect,

GypsyMoth

 

[Outdated]

I am very sorry...

There is a stereotype that many of us are shockingly familiar with, the hubris of the academic.

An apology like this is extremely rare to many of us and speaks of your good character. Thank you.
I do enjoy many of your comments and I look forward talking to you more in the future.

 

[Rodafina]

Dear @Rodafina and Every One else,

I am very sorry for my offense. It was not my intention to offend.
I have enjoyed your company and friendship and you all have become very important to me.
I am sorry.

With the utmost respect,

GypsyMoth

Much appreciated, GypsyMoth.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

For those who may be interested in the voices of actual autists people who experienced ABA themselves, I am going to share some links.

As an autistic person, what is your experience with ABA therapy?

Answer (1 of 3): I’m autistic. My experience with ABA therapy was traumatizing at best. I’ve since been diagnosed with C-PTSD and part of the trauma is from ABA therapy. ABA therapy for autistic kids is so often used to try to make them appear more normal, to fit in with society. To conform. Th...

www.quora.com

personal stories from those formerly enrolled in ABA

These stories were all obtained anonymously via google forms survey. Some of these are quoted from parents or loved ones and others are quoted from autistics. From parents: “We had a newer pr…

stopabasupportautistics.home.blog

What I Liked (and Didn't Like) About My ABA Experience

An autistic adult reflects on his applied behavior analysis therapy experience.

themighty.com

There are many other places. Just search for autists ABA patients testimonies.

And for good autism specialists that may help with children, research those who are actually recomended by the autists who took the therapy.

I may recomend some spanish ones, but dont follow english therapists.

Maybe someone can recomend some good autist proffesional so the OP and others may found a good alternative to ABA?