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Featured What was ASD2 called before the DSM-V

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by PastelPetals, Jun 23, 2020.

  1. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    On that one i agree my friend and as i also stated in another diskussion reg this levels and the criterias or decription of the different levels there is a ongoing debate on that this different levels are full of flaws.

    further more reg this IQ thing there is NO criteria that states that lower IQ is enogh to get a ASD diagnose.

    And reg ID you need SIGNIFICANTLY lower then average (they have actually recently downsized the importance of a > 70 IQ and put more of complete picture of both having to fit the criterias (for ex Signifacantly problems with Executive and adaptive , social funktions + Signifacantly lower IQ then average BUT no specific limit of said IQ level.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  2. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    ="FormerlyAutistic, post: 697784, member: 24438"]If autism couldn't be caused solely by low intelligence (meaning low IQ causes all of the social impairments and repetitive behavior required for a diagnosis), there would be no reason for that exclusion.

    The existence of that exclusion shows low IQ causes autism but they just don't want those people diagnosed with autism unless their symptoms are worse than other people with the same IQ.

    " I cant say i agree with you on that one "

    Around one-third of people with ASD have ID (IQ < 70).

    " I agree that many with ASD also have Usely mild but also Moderate ID BUT thats got nothing with ASD.

    ID is a separate often comorbid diagnose to ASD . And as i said earlier you need SIGNIFICANTLY lower then average (they have actually recently downsized the importance of a > 70 IQ and put more of complete picture of both having to fit the criterias (for ex Signifacantly problems with Executive and adaptive , social funktions + Signifacantly lower IQ then average BUT no specific limit of said IQ level. "

    They only want people whose social impairments are lower than other people with the same IQ to be diagnosed with autism. That's important for research purposes because there is no point in studying what causes autism in those people when it's already known their ID caused them to be autistic.

    " No you have gotten this back ways ID is SEPERATE (often co morbid with ASD ) Diagnose from ASD ;) "

    It's also important when studying treatments to tell when someone has recovered from autism.

    " Again you cant recover from ASD as there IS NO KNOWN CURE in the entire world . What you can do is to either adapt to youre tics or get meds or other treatments that helps you tone down said tics . Simple as that :cool: "

    People with ASD3 who improve to the point where their social impairments are the same as other people with the same IQ are considered to have recovered from autism and qualify to have their autism diagnosis removed.

    " NO dear. Removing of a diagnose is made if by a re evaluation its discovered you have been wrongfully diagnosed and YOU approve of this diagnose to be removed. And i can guarntee you that us with ASD 3 (ie Severe Autism with multible co morbid diagnosis ) can NEVER get our diagnosis changed or removed ;)

    We also have the same posibilitys to get re evaluated and have our diagnose removed IF its concluded we have been wrongfully diagnosed earlier of different NP diagnosis incl for ID as well as MANY that feels they have a wrongfully ASD diagnose). Something that sadly did occure back in the 90 `s with ASD diagnosis left and right and before that ADHD and before and during that ID

    And again IQ has NOTHING to do with geting a ASD diagnose "
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  3. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    Let me explain it differently. If someone has an IQ of 40, they're going to be socially awkward, have trouble understanding people, and prefer simpler, more repetitive activities due to their lower level of intelligence. That means that in the absence of criteria E, people with a low enough IQ will meet the criteria for ASD. Since those in charge of the DSM criteria are aware of this, they added criteria E to prevent these people from being diagnosed with ASD unless their social impairments are greater than other people with the same IQ.

    It's relevant because people who are less intelligent have more difficulty understanding things in general which includes understanding people, learning social skills, and other impairment that are part of the criteria for ASD.


    Suppose a researcher claimed he found a cure for ASD. How would people be able to verify it? First, you would have to have well defined criteria to determine who is autistic and who isn't. Then, you'd have to check whether someone who was confirmed to have met the criteria still meets the criteria. If it's confirmed they met the criteria but no longer meet it, then they would be considered to have recovered from autism.

    Since ID can cause the same social impairments as autism, someone with an IQ of 60 who had much worse social impairments than other people with an IQ of 60 but now has social impairments that are similar to those with an IQ of 60, that person would no longer be considered autistic since all his social impairments would be explained by his ID. If this happened as part of a clinical study to test a drug to cure autism, that person would be considered to have recovered from autism even if he still had more social impairments than someone with ASD1.


    If a drug company created a drug that they claimed could cure autism, they'd need a way to determine whether people diagnosed with ASD are still autistic. That's why it's relevant.
     
  4. Yeshuasdaughter

    Yeshuasdaughter Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Aspergers has been a title for a long long time, since at least ww2. In the 80s, kids would make fun of me and say I had ass boogers. It was awful. So, yes it's been called aspergers for a long time.
     
  5. Ezra

    Ezra Relax, it's just chaos.

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    Based on those I know of, level 3 autism is often or perhaps usually accompanied by intellectual disability. But ID in autism is tricky as those who break through and learn how to communicate using a keyboard express quite a lot of intelligence. There was one such person who was a member here and also there is Carly Fleischmann as the best known example.

    And then there are level 3 people like Sarah S who do not have ID (I presume).

    But then again there are level 2 who requite a care home. Due to such things as being a flight risk. I talked with one quite a bit on an autism forum. Then again I know of another level 2 who can drive places.

    Personally I tend to go more by all the autistic people I know and know of rather than what the dsm says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  6. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    I don't think IQ tests are accurate when people are nonverbal. I read about someone with ASD3 who was determined to have an IQ of 60 who was retested later in life and it ended up being 130. If I was given an IQ test when I was 3 years old, I think I might have been diagnosed with ID because I was nonverbal, had no interest in other people, and didn't respond to my name (which is level 3 according to DSM social criteria). My IQ was average when I was ASD2 and above-average when I was ASD1.
     
  7. PastelPetals

    PastelPetals Active Member

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    Yes the DSM can be too impersonal (I mean that makes sense the book is for diagnosis not for realizing the nuances in every person) however you can miss things if you only think about the numbers. I am level 2 (as mentioned in this thread) but I have less independence in some ways than people would think as I need supervision to stay on task for about everything and I tend to get "stuck" so I need help there along with figuring out things with numbers and I need people to write for me since my handwriting is unreadable. Plus I still can't drive, remember to do things like laundry, I still don't know what to say when making appointments. But for small amounts of time I can mask pretty well (I am talking less than an hour but that time is enough to confuse people) so people assume I function super duper highly when I don't really. 2 just feels like the middle they don't know what to do with. Some days I need ASD3 support other days ASD1 many days ASD2. Overall it is pretty confusing.
     
  8. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    Why is that? Are you more autistic some days compared to others?
     
  9. PastelPetals

    PastelPetals Active Member

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    It's not more or less autistic it's more how things show up. If I am more tired or stressed I don't do as well just like all people. Or sometimes I seem more autistic due to me not being able to mask as well. The main thing that changes is needed more help communicating as I can become unable to talk sometimes. So not really more it just depends how tired or stressed I am or how well I can mask. I think the same and I act accordingly (though sometimes my thinking can fog up but that is the only change in my thinking)...I apologise if this is not the most clear responce I am about go to bed and I am very tired.

    EDIT: also some people get "better" as they age some get "worse" I seem to be the latter but I have no idea why I am guessing that people thought some of the stuff I did at three or five was normal (and it was for that age) but now I am older and some things have not changed leading people to notice it more. I don't have a DD of any kind except developmental coordination disorder (and I think the cdc says autism is a DD) or an ID but in some ways I never caught up to my peers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  10. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    Actually my friend if you check my Signature and profile you see i do Mild ID ;)
     
  11. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    ="FormerlyAutistic, post: 697812, member: 24438"]Let me explain it differently. If someone has an IQ of 40, they're going to be socially awkward, have trouble understanding people, and prefer simpler, more repetitive activities due to their lower level of intelligence. That means that in the absence of criteria E, people with a low enough IQ will meet the criteria for ASD. Since those in charge of the DSM criteria are aware of this, they added criteria E to prevent these people from being diagnosed with ASD unless their social impairments are greater than other people with the same IQ.

    " If someone was to have IQ of > 40 said person would be getting Severe ID and still NOT ASD alone my friend. BUT i do understand what youre saying and you might have a point there now when you explain youre self better "

    It's relevant because people who are less intelligent have more difficulty understanding things in general which includes understanding people, learning social skills, and other impairment that are part of the criteria for ASD.

    " You have point there and i agree to a point"

    Suppose a researcher claimed he found a cure for ASD. How would people be able to verify it? First, you would have to have well defined criteria to determine who is autistic and who isn't. Then, you'd have to check whether someone who was confirmed to have met the criteria still meets the criteria. If it's confirmed they met the criteria but no longer meet it, then they would be considered to have recovered from autism.

    " I get you but the tiny problem is this are Neuro psychological diagnosis (= in youre brain from birth ) so the odds of someone finding a cure for this would be astromically low as it would require tremendous brain sergery and somehow be able to rebuild the brain. and as with my MBD my brain is permanatly damaged so NO chance of it being fixed same with other NP diagnosis you cant cure it nor will you ever find a cure for it my friend. its just bacic fact and common since "

    Since ID can cause the same social impairments as autism,

    " If you look at the criterias for ID you will see there are similar yes BUT NOT the same my friend "

    someone with an IQ of 60 who had much worse social impairments than other people with an IQ of 60 but now has social impairments that are similar to those with an IQ of 60, that person would no longer be considered autistic since all his social impairments would be explained by his ID. If this happened as part of a clinical study to test a drug to cure autism, that person would be considered to have recovered from autism even if he still had more social impairments than someone with ASD1.

    " The problem is you seem to be stuck on only social impairments & IQ levels . If you look at the criterias for ASD you see you also need other criterias that is NOT social and NON of low IQ. same with ID diagnose. Yes social impairments are indeed ONE of the criterias but you also need other Signifacantly lower capubilities in as i said Exetuive and Adaptive skills + even worse social impairments then you need for a ASD diagnose . Not to mention ASD 2 - 3 are often with multible co morbid diagnosis (incl ID )"
    If a drug company created a drug that they claimed could cure autism, they'd need a way to determine whether people diagnosed with ASD are still autistic. That's why it's relevant.

    " That day will most probaly never happen my friend simple as that as you cant rebuild or change a brain that mush and that accurate by just some drugs "
     
  12. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    On that i and the majority of profetionals agree with you . Its a widely known fact and medically agnowladged that us with any NP diagnose generally perform down to 10 -15 points lower then average on IQ tests. If you look at online IQ tests they are desinged with executive funktions as a tool and us with NP diagnosis are often less capule on that department so we fail (i have takend online tests and i got 70 IQ on those ) and my ord genuin profetinal tests 80 -90 Signifacantly lower on most criterias measured below average on verbal understanding = i come up in 90. So for us IQ tests arent useble in a diagnose actually as they dont accurately show our IQ.

    And also its not possible to do a IQ test with children below 5 my friend on the grounds its not accurate nor possible to do a relible assessment of children below 5 (again medically approved and agreed on by the medical society ) you cant determan a level at 3 years old my friend that comes after you grown older (ie 5+ ) and its been determined that you inded have ASD and also what are youre needs if any of support as of that point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  13. Ezra

    Ezra Relax, it's just chaos.

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    For me the problem is learning disabilities. Test me in one area I score low. In another area I score high.
     
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  14. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    ="PastelPetals, post: 697896, member: 24638"]Yes the DSM can be too impersonal (I mean that makes sense the book is for diagnosis not for realizing the nuances in every person)
    however you can miss things if you only think about the numbers.

    " Wisly spoken indeed "

    I am level 2 (as mentioned in this thread) but I have less independence in some ways than people would think as I need supervision to stay on task for about everything and I tend to get "stuck" so I need help there along with figuring out things with numbers and I need people to write for me since my handwriting is unreadable.

    " To me it sounds like you also have a few Co morbid diagnosis same as me , and like you seems to have i have also have multible learning difulties as well (incl both Dyslexia (handwriting ) Dyscalculia (nrs ) "

    Plus I still can't drive,

    So you will learn later i did as well i dident get my drivers licence until 20 i think Had problems with the theory not the driving but got put on hold until i passed the theory part "

    remember to do things like laundry,

    " My memory is that of goldfich"

    ( I still don't know what to say when making appointments. But for small amounts of time I can mask pretty well (I am talking less than an hour but that time is enough to confuse people) so people assume I function super duper highly when I don't really. 2 just feels like the middle they don't know what to do with. Some days I need ASD3 support other days ASD1 many days ASD2. Overall it is pretty confusing.

    " I can say the same im ASD 3 and all the rest and low and behold im still able to carry on (incl verbaly ) deep and serios diskussions so my advice is stop worrying so mush on what level you are on dear yes you are diagnosed with 2 (something i cant really understand to be honest as you are WAY higher then me in the online tests & have way more difuclties then i have and had in some areas. and im ASD 3.The levels are just guidelines and as you say youre self there not particlary accurate so dont get to stuck on them . there is an ungoing discussion about the different flaws in this decription of the levels and im shore they will be corected as time goes on.

    And for the record based on how you write & express youre self in here id say you are probably above me in intelligence as well my friend. So i would guess youre self Confidents needs to get bumped a bit as its clear youre NOT as incapable as you think you are. Yes you do have certain problems as we all have "
     
  15. Ezra

    Ezra Relax, it's just chaos.

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    I'm on my phone so the sigs don't show. ID does not really show when those who have it post. One of the most astute people here and and another forum had ASD3 with ID. It was only when the person went into detail of what their life was like that it became apparent.
     
  16. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    A okey well i do have Mild ID heres my entire Signature

    Officially Diagnosed with MBD= Minimal brain damage. From Severe birth comlications + MANY co morbid diagnosis (AT 4). Later MBD was rediagnoced since MBD was removed & replaced as ADHD ) (in my case Severe) & MANY of the co morbid diagnosis (incl Multiple Learning disabilities (At 10)

    Mild Intellectual disability ( ID)
    (only then/now i had/have above 70 IQ but still in the lower part of average(i.e 80-90). I pass all criterias for diagnose (1996 )

    Severe ASD 3 (2010) . RAADS-R scale 166 .Aspie quiz 160 . AQ 38 &
    MANY of the co morbid diagnosis.

    And dont worry im not ofended either way :)
     
  17. Ezra

    Ezra Relax, it's just chaos.

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    That sounds similar to me. I had birth comlications as well and I have been diagnosed and rediagnosed over time. It's like if you want to know what all specifically is wrong with me, you have to ask someone else because I am bad at remembering what all the acronyms and numbers are. They had me as ID but then changed that to a series of learning disabilities plus blah blah whatever.
     
  18. Ezra

    Ezra Relax, it's just chaos.

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    The old saying is if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. I think it comes down to a case by case basis.

    There are people who are new to austism on the forums who question their autism based on criteria. "If I'm autistic then why I don't do such-in-such?" Or "why am I able to do such-in-such?". You can't go strictly by the book.
     
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  19. Sarah S

    Sarah S Well-Known Member

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    Yeah they tossed in the towel with me when they find my ASD 3 and concluded there is multible diagnosis yet to discover but as the posibilitys of finding them all is not god they decided to stopp (and i agree ) i have been tested thuout my life and each time that find more diagnosis :rolleyes: I still discover more diagnosis WELL documented with facts and according to said criterias in DSM 5 and that what the medical faculty goes buy for diagnosis ;) and all within the co morbid diagnosis to my main diagnosis .
     
  20. PastelPetals

    PastelPetals Active Member

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    Yeah that is the same thing for me. I got told once that any overall test score I have would not be very accurate since there would be so much discrepancy between the scores and averaging them out for an overall score would not reflect what I could do.
     
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