What is AutiGender?

[SunnyDay16]

At any particular time in history there's a mix of opinions and levels of understanding and acceptance of new ways of thinking. I expect @SunnyDay16 accepts that. To me the idea of arguing that gender is the same as anatomy is an outdated view, but given that I think some people still think the world is flat it's maybe a bit too soon to expect full acceptance around the issue.

I do think respect though is the minimum expectation and in the UK trans people have Equal Rights in law. Thank goodness for that because trans people have had a very high suicide rate due to the social , physical and emotional stress of this situation, and added to that the sheer extent that their sense of gender is not understood or acknowledged and worse than that has been denied and ridiculed at times. Because of my gender neutral presentation I am often taken to be gay or trans, and one recent comment was, "that ones a post op by the look of it" spoken loudly in a café. I guess one has to be grateful the person's got some inkling of a possible aspect of gender transition however, if someone said " that ones on the autistic spectrum by the look of it" would you feel comfortable?

As autistic people we hopefully should be able to relate to the position of gender spectrum minorities as we are also misunderstood and discriminated against. In earlier times gay and lesbian people were in a similar position, and happily their rights are now improved and suicide rates are lower , though sadly not worldwide yet.

The thing is, autism has been scientifically proven to be a real disorder. The idea of different genders has yet to be shown to exist by science. Yes science has proven that there are different hormone levels in people that causes them to feel more "male" or "female", but that doesn't equal different genders. I feel the whole genders idea mostly political and feeling based, not science based. I absolutely believe gender dysphoria exists, I'm not debating that. Individuals with gender dysphoria should receive therapy and help so that they can live with full lives. I will absolutely not treat someone different based on that or be rude to them and I do not think others should either, regardless of their own opinions.

I also feel trans people should have equal rights. I never said they didn't, even if it came off that way.

 

[the_tortoise]

I am all for freedom of choice. People are allowed to claim they are whatever gender they want. I will not tell them what do think or shove my opinion down their throat. I just won't believe they are that gender, but I will keep my opinion to myself because it doesn't affect me all that much. If a guy who has a penis tells me he thinks he's a woman, I will not believe that he is one, but I won't tear him down for that either.

You may alreaedy know transgendered people and believe they are the gender they say they are, simply because you've never seem them naked (or have seen them naked, but are unaware they have had reconstructive surgery).

The thing is, autism has been scientifically proven to be a real disorder. The idea of different genders has yet to be shown to exist by science. Yes science has proven that there are different hormone levels in people that causes them to feel more "male" or "female", but that doesn't equal different genders.

Science has not proven that hormone levels cause people to feel more male or female, where did you read that? If that were true, then all people with male levels of testosterone and estrogen should feel male, and all people with female levels of the same should feel female, but clearly that is not the case.....

The research to support gender as a physiologically-based aspect of biology is preliminary but it does exist -- here is a starter article for you: Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

 

[kay]

From reading about gender issues for the past few years I have noticed that everybody seems to be coming from a different place with their own definitions and that tends to lead to so many arguments and confusion. Even among those who use terms such as gender neutral, agender, ect...there is no real consensus on the exact meaning. They are attempting to describe some aspect of being human that for that person means a lot. I have heard a couple of terms defined by some people in a way that might fit me quite well but it doesn't feel essential. I prefer to not use any gender terms and just refer to the sex on my birth certificate. This obviously isn't working for everybody so words and definitions will continue to pop up as people try to explain something they find very important to their life. I am not in that situation and so I really won't understand but then I suspect they would wonder why I am so indifferent with the topic. It's certainly not me fitting in with women because I don't, and I have failed at matching gender expectations so many times and so many ways. Anyhoo, obviously everyone finds themselves differently wired in more ways than one and that's good. As long as everybody respects each others decisions and doesn't expect their own choices to work for everyone else. I can see that had I been born in a different time or place that I might want to be referred to as they instead of she. I just ended up in a different place.

 

[SunnyDay16]

You may alreaedy know transgendered people and believe they are the gender they say they are, simply because you've never seem them naked (or have seen them naked, but are unaware they have had reconstructive surgery).



Science has not proven that hormone levels cause people to feel more male or female, where did you read that? If that were true, then all people with male levels of testosterone and estrogen should feel male, and all people with female levels of the same should feel female, but clearly that is not the case.....

The research to support gender as a physiologically-based aspect of biology is preliminary but it does exist -- here is a starter article for you: Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

I admit that was an error on my part. I'm not entirely educated on all of this.

I read over the article. I definitely acknowledge that there is a scientific basis for gender dysphoria. I am aware that gender dysphoria exists and has some biological roots, but I don't think any genders other than male or female exist. I believe that when it comes to the brain, there's a spectrum of masculine and feminine, and we're all among that spectrum but genital wise we're only male or female (or intersex). Does that make sense?

 

[55853]

From reading about gender issues for the past few years I have noticed that everybody seems to be coming from a different place with their own definitions and that tends to lead to so many arguments and confusion. Even among those who use terms such as gender neutral, agender, ect...there is no real consensus on the exact meaning. They are attempting to describe some aspect of being human that for that person means a lot. I have heard a couple of terms defined by some people in a way that might fit me quite well but it doesn't feel essential. I prefer to not use any gender terms and just refer to the sex on my birth certificate. This obviously isn't working for everybody so words and definitions will continue to pop up as people try to explain something they find very important to their life. I am not in that situation and so I really won't understand but then I suspect they would wonder why I am so indifferent with the topic. It's certainly not me fitting in with women because I don't, and I have failed at matching gender expectations so many times and so many ways. Anyhoo, obviously everyone finds themselves differently wired in more ways than one and that's good. As long as everybody respects each others decisions and doesn't expect their own choices to work for everyone else. I can see that had I been born in a different time or place that I might want to be referred to as they instead of she. I just ended up in a different place.

I relate to this a lot. I've been aware of "gender identities" for a few years and I've been trying to understand them. I know some people do have a definite gender identity (and that it's not just restricted to male/female), but I genuinely can't understand it in relation to myself, so I just go by my sex - I've seen this referred to as terms including "cis-apathetic", "cis-genderless", and "cis-by-default". I can see how someone like this would instead identify themselves as something like "agender" or "nonbinary" if gender was significant to them, but it's not to me personally.

 

[55853]

The idea of different genders has yet to be shown to exist by science

Maybe I can try what helped me to start to understand all this. What I'm about to say is my understanding, but I've never studied anything relevant.

When it comes to stating "this causes that", I strongly believe that needs to be proven (in case that was not obvious from my previous posts on this thread). But it helped me to see people's experiences as separate from this - they're not something objective that can be quantified, so I don't see how the scientific method could be applied. That means other methodology is more appropriate to understand gender, as something qualitative and subjective.

This means they could not be proven to exist by science (in the strict sense). Maybe you could look for biological signatures in brain structure or whatever, but would those really define gender? Autism is not defined by biological markers, it's defined by thinking and behaviour. Why would gender need to be different?

 

[the_tortoise]

I read over the article. I definitely acknowledge that there is a scientific basis for gender dysphoria. I am aware that gender dysphoria exists and has some biological roots, but I don't think any genders other than male or female exist. I believe that when it comes to the brain, there's a spectrum of masculine and feminine, and we're all among that spectrum but genital wise we're only male or female (or intersex). Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense to me. I can't wrap my head around how you're defining and categorizing things.

On the one hand you say there are only two genders: male and female. But then you add intersex. How are you categorizing intersex, if you believe people can only be two genders? Is intersex a third option? How can you have a third option if there are only two options?

And why just genitals, to determine/categorize gender? (Given that the shape of a person's genitals at birth is determined by genetics and hormones and potentially other substances that can act like hormones in the effect they have on a developing fetus?)

 

[SunnyDay16]

No, it doesn't make sense to me. I can't wrap my head around how you're defining and categorizing things.

On the one hand you say there are only two genders: male and female. But then you add intersex. How are you categorizing intersex, if you believe people can only be two genders? Is intersex a third option? How can you have a third option if there are only two options?

And why just genitals, to determine/categorize gender? (Given that the shape of a person's genitals at birth is determined by genetics and hormones and potentially other substances that can act like hormones in the effect they have on a developing fetus?)

It's just my opinion. I'm not saying it's fact or it's right. I could be wrong but honestly I don't care. It doesn't really affect me. I've said my piece and that's all. I'm done arguing. I am done with this thread and done with being talked down to just because I happen to disagree. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.

 

[the_tortoise]

It's just my opinion. I'm not saying it's fact or it's right. I could be wrong but honestly I don't care. It doesn't really affect me. I've said my piece and that's all. I'm done arguing. I am done with this thread and done with being talked down to. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.

I'm sorry if I came across like I was talking down to you or like I didn't really care about your perspective.

I am guessing I was too blunt. I don't know how to soften things to acknowledge your perspective because I really and truly cannot see what it is -- I don't understand how you are thinking about these things.

It is not that I don't care or don't want to understand your perspective -- the answers to the questions I asked might help me understand. They are real questions, not talking-down-to-you-rhetoric, and the last bit is me attempting to explain why I don't get it.....why what you are saying doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe my perspective is just as confusing to you as yours is to me?

 

[SunnyDay16]

I'm sorry if I came across like I was talking down to you or like I didn't really care about your perspective.

I am guessing I was too blunt. I don't know how to soften things to acknowledge your perspective because I really and truly cannot see what it is -- I don't understand how you are thinking about these things.

It is not that I don't care or don't want to understand your perspective -- the answers to the questions I asked might help me understand. They are real questions, not talking-down-to-you-rhetoric, and the last bit is me attempting to explain why I don't get it.....why what you are saying doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe my perspective is just as confusing to you as yours is to me?

Yes it is very confusing, but I'm not going to speak of it no more. I don't want to offend people more than I already have.

 

[the_tortoise]

Yes it is very confusing, but I'm not going to speak of it no more. I don't want to offend people more than I already have.

That is unfortunate because I think discussion can be useful even if people get offended, but I understand where you are coming from, I think (I have made a similar choice in other situations).

 

[SunnyDay16]

That is unfortunate because I think discussion can be useful even if people get offended, but I understand where you are coming from, I think (I have made a similar choice in other situations).

It's just that the general consensus of this thread is that those who disagree with the idea of more than 2 genders are just ignorant and need to be more enlightened. I don't agree with that, but that seems to be what some people are insinuating here. Why discuss if all is going to happen is that I (and others who feel the same) will get shut down as an ignorant person? It makes me not want to discuss because I feel no matter what I say people will tell me how "ignorant" I seem.

 

[AO1501]

Yes it is very confusing, but I'm not going to speak of it no more. I don't want to offend people more than I already have.

Just for the record, you certainly didn't offend me. In fact you made me realise that if I hadn't a direct interest in the subject because of my daughter, I would very likely see gender issues in rather more black and white terms myself.

Being sensitive to this, maybe it is too easy to dismiss opinions from those who are less so. I apologise for that.

 

[55853]

It's just that the general consensus of this thread is that those who disagree with the idea of more than 2 genders are just ignorant and need to be more enlightened. I don't agree with that, but that seems to be what some people are insinuating here. Why discuss if all is going to happen is that I (and others who feel the same) will get shut down as an ignorant person? It makes me not want to discuss because I feel no matter what I say people will tell me how "ignorant" I seem.

I don't think that's the case. For me personally, I was explaining what helped me to (superficially) understand gender identities. I was doing that because I thought it may help you grasp why people identify as genders other than male or female, since I see it's confusing you. I'm sorry it did not help and that it came across as talking down to you or calling you ignorant - I was not intending that.

 

[SunnyDay16]

I don't think that's the case. For me personally, I was explaining what helped me to (superficially) understand gender identities. I was doing that because I thought it may help you grasp why people identify as genders other than male or female, since I see it's confusing you. I'm sorry it did not help and that it came across as talking down to you or calling you ignorant - I was not intending that.

You don't need to apologize because it didn't come across that way at all to me. In fact I appreciate your take on things and what you provided.

 

[SunnyDay16]

Just for the record, you certainly didn't offend me. In fact you made me realise that if I hadn't a direct interest in the subject because of my daughter, I would very likely see gender issues in rather more black and white terms myself.

Being sensitive to this, maybe it is too easy to dismiss opinions from those who are less so. I apologise for that.

I am glad I didn't. I know that this is a very sensitive and personal topic so offending is almost impossible.

And you don't need to apologize because I don't feel you did that. I feel you engaged my opinions which I appreciate.

 

[55853]

You don't need to apologize because it didn't come across that way at all to me. In fact I appreciate your take on things and what you provided.

I'm glad to hear that - with the timing, I thought I contributed to you not to wanting to discuss it further, especially as I seem to have already unintentionally stopped someone else from commenting on this thread. For more on that take, you could perhaps look more into qualitative research methodologies, which I image would go more into detail on this.

 

[Lia]

I assume you talk about me, and I am truly sorry if I made you feel that way. It was never my intention to talk down to you or make you feel as if I think you're an ignorant person.
Being part of the community myself, I am very passionate about LGBTQ+ issues, which is why I can't just agree to disagree. I want people to educate themselves about these things, so having these discussions are really important, but communicating through text can be hard and I may have come across a bit too blunt. I apologize about that.

 

[SunnyDay16]

I assume you talk about me, and I am truly sorry if I made you feel that way. It was never my intention to talk down to you or make you feel as if I think you're an ignorant person.
Being part of the community myself, I am very passionate about LGBTQ+ issues, which is why I can't just agree to disagree. I want people to educate themselves about these things, so having these discussions are really important, but communicating through text can be hard and I may have come across a bit too blunt. I apologize about that.

It's OK. I understand where you're coming from. I truly do.

 

[the_tortoise]

It's just that the general consensus of this thread is that those who disagree with the idea of more than 2 genders are just ignorant and need to be more enlightened. I don't agree with that, but that seems to be what some people are insinuating here. Why discuss if all is going to happen is that I (and others who feel the same) will get shut down as an ignorant person? It makes me not want to discuss because I feel no matter what I say people will tell me how "ignorant" I seem.

It is understandable that you would not want to say anything if you feel like you are not being listened to or that nobody is willing to consider what you have to say and that people are talking down to you/patronizing you.

I don't think that anyone here is trying to be condescending, to insult you, or to say that you, as a person, are ignorant (although I can only really speak for myself and I often miss things that people say so I could be wrong).... In any case, I am not trying to do/say those things, and I do not think that you, as a person, are ignorant.

However, I do think that your viewpoints on this issue are uninformed; And if you don't care whether you are right or wrong/informed or uninformed and have no interest in learning more, then I would say your viewpoints are willfully ignorant.

This is not intended as an insult against you as a person, and I am not looking down on you or thinking that you are in any way lesser than myself or anyone else just because I think this about your views regarding sex/gender.

I have held uninformed and ignorant viewpoints about things -- I am certain I do now, and just don't know it.....everyone, at some point, is uninformed/ignorant about something.

I am simply stating what I think about your views when it comes to sex/gender, not what I think about you as a person, not what I think about your views on anything else.

Arguing against your ideas and for my own, challenging or inquiring about your ideas, those things do not mean I am patronizing you or trying to be insulting or disrespectful, nor does it mean I'm not considering what you have to say. How else are people supposed to debate and discuss things and to understand each other's points of view, except to lay out their own reasoning and arguments, and ask questions about the other person's views and the reasoning and arguments that underlie those views?

I would not bother asking questions nor laying out arguments if I was not thinking critically about what you say -- if I was not considering it. Just because I do not understand your views or do not agree with them does not mean I am dismissing your point of view without considering it.