Those on the Spectrum and Narcissism

[Sportster]

. . .

 

[Judge]

I have read that many an Aspie have been misdiagnosed in the past as narcissists.

 

[wanderer03]

Since I’ve been off work recovering from surgery, I’ve had the opportunity to read a little more and do some research. One of the things I stumbled across was an interesting article on Narcissism, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Narcissistic Individuals.

What I found answered many questions I’ve had concerning my mother and paternal grandmother, but it also caused me to contemplate Narcissism in relationship to those on the spectrum.

Do you think those on the spectrum or more apt to be Narcissistic, less Narcissistic, or do you believe it depends on where one is on the spectrum? Also, do you feel that environmental factors (how one was raised, parents, etc.) would play a part in one being a Narcissist?

Okay, let the discussion begin.

Interesting .... My guess is that someone autistic might unknowingly have a narcissistic behavior pattern. I truly believe that the narcissist knowingly and willingly engages in that behavior pattern. Perhaps they even enjoy it. My understanding of autism is that it is a neurological disorder rather than a personality disorder. Is it possible for someone to be both? I guess so?

 

[DogwoodTree]

I've studied narcissism in depth due to having family members with many of these characteristics (my therapist agrees though of course he can't formally dx any of them). I've also looked intently at the line between autism and narcissism, especially since one family member in particular seems to have both.

I think there are those with AS who are also narcissistic, and I think there are many auties and aspies who are not narcissists. At the same time, I don't think all narcissists are aware of what they're doing, especially the covert narcs. And I think some people are born with a personality type that could easily become narcissistic regardless of how they're raised (but there's still a layer of choice, especially when raised by fairly healthy caregivers). I don't think we can fairly generalize any of these possibilities to the full population of narc-folks or AS-folks.

So, that said...

I think that many aspies/auties display narc-like traits when perceived by someone else, especially someone who lives closely with them like a spouse or a child, without actually having narcissism. On the AS end, there's often a limited sense of what the other person needs, and a limited ability to give it, and that feels to the other person like an extreme deficit in empathy (which is a core trait of narcissism but not necessarily of autism).

But I think there's a fundamental difference in what drives this lack of empathy between narcs and aspies/auties.

From my understanding, narcs are acting from a deep-seated fear of rejection. They have to present a perfected persona to the world in order to avoid any perceived possibility of rejection, and the higher functioning narcs tend to be pretty good at it. It also has a manipulative and/or forceful quality to it.

Aspies/auties, on the other hand, are acting from a deficiency of information and perception. For many of us, once we're made aware of something we're doing that's hurting someone else, our tendency is to correct our behavior as best we know how, whereas a narc is less likely to apologize or attempt to change.

We often do rely on social masks in order to be more functional in social situations, but most of us still have noticeable oddities and even deficiencies in the ways we perform these parts. It's nearly always a great deal of work (if we bother with masks at all), and never truly becomes a natural expression of ourselves, as long as we rely on the masks. But for many of us, the masks are the only versions of ourselves that can get by in the real world--our inner aspie-selves (for me, anyway) would botch the whole thing and go crawl in a hole somewhere and hope no one ever found me again.

Also, I'm more likely to reject myself than I am to manipulate someone into thinking they like me, or to force my presence onto anyone once I realize they don't want me around (in fact, I'm quick to assume someone doesn't want me around so they don't have to experience the discomfort of my presence long enough to notice it).

I also think there's another reason why some aspies might look narcissistic. For female aspies, especially, we tend to emulate other people's social behaviors. In my case, both my father and step-father had strong narcissistic tendencies, and my mother showed both borderline and covert narc traits. As I tried to emulate them when I was younger, I picked up many of their relational patterns.

But now as I'm learning the differences between narcissistic relationship behaviors and healthy behaviors, it's simply a matter of making different types of decisions in order to behave healthily instead of narcissistically.

In fact, some of their behaviors I had already identified as being unhealthy and destructive long before I knew anything about codependency or personality disorders or AS. Those behaviors simply weren't logical. Played out in my mind and predicted through the long-term, the expected damage from behaving that way was obvious and evident to me, and so I made different choices as I found some freedom from my family system. I don't always know what healthy behaviors to replace the narc ones with, but I can often identify the dysfunctionality of the narc behavioral patterns and attempt to develop other alternatives that I predict will be more constructive.

 

[Southern Discomfort]

Tony Attwood actually talks about people with Asperger's who get the diagnosis of NPD because of who they react to the world around them. He says there are 4 different ways people react. One's with depression, another is with imagination and end up getting a misdiagnosed with Schizoid Personality Disorder. The other is what he called the Sherlock Syndrome, where they say to themselves that they're smarter and comfort themselves with the thought of their high intelligence, decide the emotions are of no importance and then get the diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

He talks about this at 31:58.

 

[garnetflower13]

I've studied narcissism in depth due to having family members with many of these characteristics (my therapist agrees though of course he can't formally dx any of them). I've also looked intently at the line between autism and narcissism, especially since one family member in particular seems to have both.

Your findings resonate with me because I too had several family members with narcissistic traits.

I think that many aspies/auties display narc-like traits when perceived by someone else, especially someone who lives closely with them like a spouse or a child, without actually having narcissism. On the AS end, there's often a limited sense of what the other person needs, and a limited ability to give it, and that feels to the other person like an extreme deficit in empathy (which is a core trait of narcissism but not necessarily of autism).

True!

But I think there's a fundamental difference in what drives this lack of empathy between narcs and aspies/auties.
From my understanding, narcs are acting from a deep-seated fear of rejection. They have to present a perfected persona to the world in order to avoid any perceived possibility of rejection, and the higher functioning narcs tend to be pretty good at it. It also has a manipulative and/or forceful quality to it.

You have outlined it exactly.

I also think there's another reason why some aspies might look narcissistic. For female aspies, especially, we tend to emulate other people's social behaviors. In my case, both my father and step-father had strong narcissistic tendencies, and my mother showed both borderline and covert narc traits. As I tried to emulate them when I was younger, I picked up many of their relational patterns. But now as I'm learning the differences between narcissistic relationship behaviors and healthy behaviors, it's simply a matter of making different types of decisions in order to behave healthily instead of narcissistically.

This. I have been working on this for the last ten years or so, especially when I realize that I am behaving like my mother or my sister. Then I am appalled into applying logic to the situation.

 

[DogwoodTree]

This. I have been working on this for the last ten years or so, especially when I realize that I am behaving like my mother or my sister. Then I am appalled into applying logic to the situation.

Yes, logic helps boost my "immune system" in my battle against narcissistic relationship patterns. It helps me move away from what is dysfunctional, but it doesn't always have the answer for what I should replace those dysfunctional behaviors with...it doesn't always indicate what to move toward.

Identifying healthy patterns requires a lot of intense interactions with healthy people, which apparently is very difficult for me to find and build those relationships. Even when I'm able to identify healthy people, and start up a conversation, and even if I'm able to move beyond chit-chat level scripts into deeper topics...I still never feel connected, or known, or understood, or even comforted.

It's frustrating to do all this work to try to get healthy and relate with people in healthier ways, only to run into the autism glass wall.

 

[Rayner]

If it's any comfort. I have a hard time seeing you as a narcissist.

The subject of Narcissism (or Narcissistic Personality Disorder) is one that I'm not ready to let go. Over the past few weeks I have been researching it and am finding a lot of answers. I'm also amazed at the similarities between it and AS; I'm also to the point of seeking another diagnosis just to make sure.

I grew up in a household with a VERY narcissistic mother and grandmother. There's no question about either, as both fit practically every criteria. The articles I read on the subject were disturbingly accurate. It's because of them that I wonder if my AS was misdiagnosed. Being a narcissist with a NVLD and PTSD could easily be misdiagnosed by a poorly trained metal health professional; finding a competent one now is quite difficult because of Obamacare. Yeah, the "change" has really done us a lot of good (enough with the politics).

With all that said, the following link is to an article I thought I'd share. Perhaps it will stimulate some thought and open another dialogue on the subject:

http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2015/05/is-it-aspergers-or-narcissism-or-both.html

 

[Rayner]

I'm probly a borderline narcissist too. Many doctors are very narcissistic, it's not that there bad people. Having that streak of narcissism in their personalities is why Doctors hold themselves to an impossible level of perfection. There's a difference between narcissism and a machevelism.

Does that make sense?

Thank you!!! However, when I look back over the years, I can see I had many of the traits. If anything, I was/am borderline. I have learned how to overcome it and alter my personality considerably over the past 56 years.

 

[Mia]

Have known only two true narcissists in my life, both of whom required adulation, attention, mirroring and enmeshment from the people who were closest to them. They appeared to lack any sort of emotional reciprocity. They seemed emotionally blank and had an almost innate desire to feed on the adulation of anyone within their purview. They sucked up the attention of others in their lives, and gave nothing back in return. In order to feel good about themselves, they required someone each day to listen to them, praise them, and rebuild their self-esteem. They appeared to care nothing for the people surrounding them, what they required from them was some sort of adulation, devotion, praise or flattery.

I understand this as different from the usual narcissistic tendencies that children have, the healthy behaviors that help them to protect themselves. And as they age they learn coping behaviors that are more in keeping with an ordinary give and take world of friendships and interaction with people.

I don't see Aspies as narcissistic, they don't seem to require that daily dose of attention or adulation to feed their concept of self which is firmly fixed. Aspies in my experience, tend towards spending a great deal of time alone with their interests. Thus if they were truly narcissistic they would require the people around them to provide them with a narcissistic fix each day.

Interaction with Aspies here and in my personal day to day life has shown me that they are kind, helpful, generous with their time, and very often unselfish. Quite the opposite of narcissistic.

 

[WereBear]

It is my understanding that narcissists are stuck at a very early level of child development. In a toddler, it is quite natural for the world to be "all bout me" but in adulthood this is very damaging. Also resistant to treatment, sadly.

Here is some of the best writing I have seen on the subject:

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/

 

[Suzanne]

I think like with many things, the true definition has got lost, in the sheer volume of chinese whispers, so to speak.

It is like asperpers. It was a clear cut definition of what aspergers was, since the man who bares this name, is the one who saw the differences in autism and aspergers.

Narcissim to me is one who does not need anyone to love, because they are in love with themselves!

It is not narcissist to demand to be acknowledged.

I also think that spolt children are very prone to be narcissist, because they have got everything they want and so believe they deserve everything they want and thus, get nasty when the attention is taken from them. And of course, children grow up to be adults.

With being aspergic, it is perceived as narcissim because we go into meltdowns when things do not go right, which is signaled as: things do not go our way! But if the person was asked and it was told that the noise causes untold issues or the sensation of something causes one to go into themselves etc, then perhaps the tag of narcissim would be erased.

I personally do not consider I am a narcissist person. But due to the mix up of what narcissist really means, I would be probably be perceived as a narcissist.

 

[DogwoodTree]

However, when I look back over the years, I can see I had many of the traits. If anything, I was/am borderline.

Regarding borderline...think about how/why that disorder develops. Children who were severely neglected and/or abused become desperate for attention and connection, and easily misinterpret cues as rejection or criticism.

And then think about a typical aspie's experience growing up, where we never/rarely feel connected and never/rarely feel understood. Even if our parents were somewhat healthy, if they weren't able to bridge that autistic divide, then our internal experience is very similar to that of a neglected child's experience. As a result, many of us become desperate for connection and attention and relationship. It can look very borderline-ish, and maybe it is basically the same thing. But I think it's manifested differently in aspies because it essentially comes from an existential separation from humanity rather than from an experiential separation from a few key figures.

So my working hypothesis at the moment is that a large number of aspies have borderline traits because of the very nature of being autistic.


As for narcissism...I think that any aspie raised by one or more narcs is going to exhibit narcissistic traits. Not because autism results in narcissism, but because autism results in our trying to act like the people we see in our world so that we can try to fit in.

As a female aspie, I spent a great deal of time (and still do) observing people's interactions so I could determine how I should act in similar situations. If my primary role models (such as my mother) are narcs, then the relational patterns I pick up will necessarily be narcissistic in nature.

But it's an emulation problem, not a personality disorder. As I find healthier role models and make cognitive-level observations and decisions about what is a healthier, better adjusted, more empathic way of relating with people, then my "narcissistic traits" fade and disappear.

And I think other posters have mentioned a critical distinction between AS and narcissism: narcs desperately need adulation of some kind or another, whether they're overt or covert narcs. But many aspies I know--and certainly in my case--don't actually want to be the center of attention, even if it's positive attention.

I don't want anyone to sing "happy birthday" to me. I don't want a birthday party. I don't want to be called up on stage to receive an award (give it to me privately if I've earned something of that nature). I don't want public acknowledgement and thanks for services I've performed. I don't want people to heap compliments in my direction for a job well done. Constructive feedback--both positive and negative--are incredibly useful in my determining what I'm doing that is working well vs. what I need to change. But I'm not looking for an ego boost.

It's not because I'm shy or suffering from social anxiety. It's because I truly don't want to be the center of attention. Even when I'm doing public speaking or teaching in a classroom, I want the ideas to be the center of attention, not me.

 

[Mia]

One of the people I used to know recounted endless loops of childhood stories for eight to ten hours nonstop. If there were other people around and they left the room where the 'show' was being held, she would ask them where they were going and why.

If people interrupted and began to talk about other things, the narcissist retreated to a corner and physically curled up into a ball. If she was not the constant 'center of attention' she seemed to fold in on herself and retreat from the present. If people didn't listen to her, she called 911 and said she was having a heart attack. Sometimes several times a week.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If people interrupted and began to talk about other things, the narcissist retreated to a corner and physically curled up into a ball. If she was not the constant 'center of attention' she seemed to fold in on herself and retreat from the present. If people didn't listen to her, she called 911 and said she was having a heart attack. Sometimes several times a week.

Wow, that's intense.

 

[Mia]

Her actual physical behavior was the real indicator finally. People who knew her thought of her as someone who talked all the time, and many who knew her tolerated the behavior, yet people rarely claimed friendship with her. Very often they would only visit her once and not see her again.

She claimed to have many friends, yet no one actually wanted to be around her. Most people avoided her after the first meeting. It was toward the latter part of her life that the physical behavior was most evident and I eventually recognized the indicators for narcissism.

It was sad really, her doctor once suggested that she 'may have been traumatized as a child.' The behavior puzzled me for many years afterwards, there seemed no real understanding of other people or even any kind of feeling for anyone including her own children. No real emotions of any sort, she was a close friends mother, and when her daughter would visit just before she left she would give her money for visiting her. I thought it an odd thing for a mother to give her daughter money for such a thing, but my friend thought it usual.

 

[Mia]

That must of been pretty awful Sportster, I knew from my best-friend's perspective it was simply the 'way things were'. She thought of her mother as eccentric and would visit her once a year, I would drive her to the airport, and when she was boarding the plane it was if she was going to prison. When she returned from the yearly visit, it took her weeks to recover.

The visits used to be more frequent, and I went with her at times. Her Mom lived in a beautiful place, near the ocean, but we rarely were able to go outside, as her mother kept us from going anywhere with the monologues. Used to 'escape' and almost run away to the seaside, just to avoid the constant recitation. If we told her we were going somewhere she wanted to come along, but no matter where it was, the ocean, a restaurant, or a store, she remained in the car with all the doors locked. It was if we were her prisoners when we were there, as if she owned us.

She called her every day, sometimes several times. If she wasn't there, I was closely questioned about where she was, what she had eaten that day, if she was seeing someone, the hours of her job, when she would be home. It was very much like a police interrogation, after some time, I stopped answering her questions, and said I would give her the message about her call. She did the same thing with all four of her adult children. A sort of suffocating choke hold on their lives. I thought of it as control from a distance.

 

[Mia]

On the other hand, my grandmother would always give me money. I've since learned that the generosity thing is another narcissistic trait. It's a way for them to draw attention to themselves; "Hey, look at me, I'm giving you money."

It's almost of if it's related to status, I have this, so it makes me special or superior. My girlfriends Mom would show me all her diamond jewelry each time we visited, all given to her by men she had affairs with while married to my friends father. Although she gave me the impression that it was all given to her by boyfriends, before she married.

It seemed a testament to her special status and value. Yet, she had no real idea of what it had 'cost' her children, who she used to bring with her when she visited acquaintance's husbands. They would wait outside in the car as children. She often told her children that 'we are from the ruling class.' She appeared to live in a sort of narcissistic dream world.