Lack of empathy

[ftfipps]

It has been a few weeks since I've posted on here. I got a new bike and I've been riding it obscene distances to get to places I used to ride the bus to. They changed the bus routes and what used to be a very simple, common sense way of catching the bus is now an expensive, baffling ordeal. Anyway, I am realizing how my life is harder since I am a high functioning autist. For example, I consider other people to be mean and stupid. That is, until I take some sort of psychedelic drug that increases empathy...at that point I want to know, what makes that guy tick? or What drives my father to pursue his passions? I want to know about others, rather than my usual paranoid self that has been hurt by people so many times that I just want to be left alone honestly. When I trip, I forget about my idiotic neighbors pulsing moronic dance music next door. I don't feel like walking over there and punching them like I usually do. I understand that I can't change them...as much as I despise their feeble brains I CANT MAKE THEM CHANGE. I guess I will have to trip on occasions when I need that empathy boost.

 

[Bolletje]

The empathy boost during a trip is nice, but can also lead you to dangerous situations, like feeling friendly towards people that have ill intentions towards you.
Try to hold on to the understanding you felt while you were tripping. Remember that you are not responsible for other people’s lives, nor can you change them. You can only change how you interact with this world.

 

[Progster]

I've heard that drugs like ecstacy can make people have hugely increased levels of empathy, help them to become more social and I think that under strict, contolled conditions it might have medical benefit, but as a recreational drug, the potential dangers far outweigh the benefits. Besides, it's false, it's not you, it's not reality. Plus I like to be in control of my thoughts and emotions, when you take a drug, you lose control to the drug, and I don't like that - I don't like being in control of my mind and body. I think that understanding people through reflection and meditation is a better way forward. And just accepting that people are what they are, and that you are what you are.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Drugs are bad. Case Closed.

I sound mean but all I can say is that I have been there and done that already, I didnt go to far but far enought to know it would only lead me to a dead end.

Find a way to think about others, in your normal state , my therapist told me that overall I did cope pretty well and most of the things I dont think of instinctivly i manage to think about it, like a logic problem solving , so you can aswell (I struggle when i have to much pressure or with more intimate things ).

Find a way to relax without putting your health at risk. Reduce everything that increases your tension like cofee etc.

I think you want to know all of that when you are not on drugs, this is just that being drugged reduces your tension/pressure and you can think without stressing out about it. But this is not healty and dangerous.

I say that because like others who replied on this topic I care ^^

 

[pjcnet]

Which hallucinogen have you been taking? As an ex drug user myself** who has been on most drugs from LSD to heroin, I have a quite a bit of experience to advise?

If it's LSD it is an extremely powerful and also potentially very dangerous drug that makes you see things in a completely different way, unlike drugs like Ecstasy it doesn't directly improve your mood and your experience tends to be reflected on the way you are currently feeling. If you are feeling bad and take LSD you are more likely to have a bad experience, but this isn't always the case and having a bad trip is very difficult to predict and control, a trip could even change from good to incredibly bad in seconds. I wouldn't wish a very bad trip on my worst enemy, on a bad trip you could literally believe you are about to die with extreme terror that you will never forget for the rest of your life, the danger is you could act truly believing it is happening to you and then take desperate measures which could obviously end extremely badly. I took LSD on a number of occasions when I was much younger, I had one extremely bad trip which petrifies me looking back even 25+ years on, I was very lucky to have experienced people looking after me. I've also had good times and yes you see things very differently and almost spiritually, some people believe that certain hallucinogens even allow your soul to leave your body to go on a spiritual journey. I also became quite experienced at controlling LCD over time to help prevent a really bad trip (you have to think of good things, but it's much easier said than done when you are there), but after I while I started asking myself whether I was truly enjoying the experience overall and the answer was mostly "no", instead I was taking it and then struggling to survive and get through it without having bad thoughts leading to a bad trip. Eventually I realised that taking it was just stupid and detrimental so I stopped. In some ways I'm glad I had the experience, but in other ways I wish I hadn't because it has effected me in a negative way regarding my mental health since I still occasionally flash back to the extreme terror I had during my very bad trip and it is still truly horrific.

An old friend of mine took LSD and truly believed that all his friends including myself were trying to kill him, late at night he climbed a fire escape onto the top of a hospital building and threatened to jump, shouting and screaming. I managed to talk him down seconds before security arrived, they asked if we'd seen anyone on the roof, I said, "no, we'd only just got there on our way home" and they let us go. As we continued walking we also saw police speeding to the scene so we was very lucky not to get nicked. My friend then thought it would be a good idea to drive to see his ex girlfriend in that condition, we had to physically stop him, it was hell, but afterwards he thanked us and apologised for his behaviour. If the same thing had happened today we probably would have been clearly caught on CCTV which was much more limited in the early 1990s and a lot less common.

Honestly you need to quit while you are ahead, overall all mind altering drugs are a mugs game and are likely to become detrimental.

** Note: I haven't touched any illegal drug for over 15 years when I was last using heroin and crack, I don't even drink alcohol and I refuse to use mind altering prescribed drugs that are also usually detrimental in the long term.

 

[pjcnet]

I've heard that drugs like ecstacy can make people have hugely increased levels of empathy, help them to become more social and I think that under strict, contolled conditions it might have medical benefit, but as a recreational drug, the potential dangers far outweigh the benefits. Besides, it's false, it's not you, it's not reality. Plus I like to be in control of my thoughts and emotions, when you take a drug, you lose control to the drug, and I don't like that - I don't like being in control of my mind and body. I think that understanding people through reflection and meditation is a better way forward. And just accepting that people are what they are, and that you are what you are.

I agree with most of what you've said including the potential dangers, but there's no real medical benefit either because the negatively of taking them still far outweighs the positive in the long term. Ecstasy can make you feel great for a short time and at first the after effects when you come down aren't even too bad, but like most drugs your body gets used to it and you need more and more to have a similar effect, but even then after a while you could be taking literally 15 times the original dose and the "good" effects will still be disappointing (I've been there and the tablets weren't weak either because a friend was as high as a kite from taking just one of the same tablets as I used to be at first), then many people start looking for other drugs in the hope of feeling good once again, often harder ones and this is a serious danger too. Eventually you will be taking Ecstasy just to have a normal night that isn't even that amazing and it continues going downhill after that, but you won't be-able to go out without it and the come down will start to become horrid along with longer term depression and anxiety too. Even taking it in small quantities under medical supervision your body will gradually still get used to it and it will be detrimental in the long term as are numerous prescribed antidepressants today, plus I think Ecstasy was prescribed for a short while many years ago. It's definitely not recommended.

Any drug that makes you feel good when you have no actual reason for that feeling is like borrowing from a bank and you have to pay it back with interest, well in many cases it's more like borrowing from a loan shark.

 

[ftfipps]

The empathy boost during a trip is nice, but can also lead you to dangerous situations, like feeling friendly towards people that have ill intentions towards you.
Try to hold on to the understanding you felt while you were tripping. Remember that you are not responsible for other people’s lives, nor can you change them. You can only change how you interact with this world.

I am going to experiment with it because it is a marked boost in understanding others. There is slight anxiety that comes along with it, though.

 

[ftfipps]

I've heard that drugs like ecstacy can make people have hugely increased levels of empathy, help them to become more social and I think that under strict, contolled conditions it might have medical benefit, but as a recreational drug, the potential dangers far outweigh the benefits. Besides, it's false, it's not you, it's not reality. Plus I like to be in control of my thoughts and emotions, when you take a drug, you lose control to the drug, and I don't like that - I don't like being in control of my mind and body. I think that understanding people through reflection and meditation is a better way forward. And just accepting that people are what they are, and that you are what you are.

Yea, I see what you mean. I just wanna use it on social occasions when I have to make an appearance of normalcy around close family or something.

 

[ftfipps]

I agree with most of what you've said including the potential dangers, but there's no real medical benefit either because the negatively of taking them still far outweighs the positive in the long term. Ecstasy can make you feel great for a short time and at first the after effects when you come down aren't even too bad, but like most drugs your body gets used to it and you need more and more to have a similar effect, but even then after a while you could be taking literally 15 times the original dose and the "good" effects will still be disappointing (I've been there and the tablets weren't weak either because a friend was as high as a kite from taking just one of the same tablets as I used to be at first), then many people start looking for other drugs in the hope of feeling good once again, often harder ones and this is a serious danger too. Eventually you will be taking Ecstasy just to have a normal night that isn't even that amazing and it continues going downhill after that, but you won't be-able to go out without it and the come down will start to become horrid along with longer term depression and anxiety too. Even taking it in small quantities under medical supervision your body will gradually still get used to it and it will be detrimental in the long term as are numerous prescribed antidepressants today, plus I think Ecstasy was prescribed for a short while many years ago. It's definitely not recommended.

Any drug that makes you feel good when you have no actual reason for that feeling is like borrowing from a bank and you have to pay it back with interest, well in many cases it's more like borrowing from a loan shark.

I would like to pm you if possible. How do I do that on this site?

 

[Juliettaa]

Any drug that makes you feel good when you have no actual reason for that feeling is like borrowing from a bank and you have to pay it back with interest, well in many cases it's more like borrowing from a loan shark.

Borrowing from the loan shark and paying with your life for too many people.

I'd rather stay in my very low empathy state than falsely bump it up with illegal substances that will do me harm. So many lives are destroyed by drugs (and alcohol).

Your safety could be at risk And for what? A drug induced empathy boost that when it wears off must surely make you feel 10 times worse than you did before you took it?

Far better to work on being more accepting of who you are and your own limitations. At least that way you're not putting your life at risk.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

A drug induced empathy boost that when it wears off must surely make you feel 10 times worse than you did before you took it?

Only 7.453 times worse.

 

[Tom]

Interesting. I would suggest you talk to a doctor about this. Either a GP or Shrink. Someone you can trust to keep confidence. People above mentioned some of the problems associated with illegal and uncontrolled substances. No one really ends up in a good place taking that route. Perhaps there is a prescription medication that can help in a similar way.

 

[pjcnet]

I would like to pm you if possible. How do I do that on this site?

You can start a new conversation by moving your mouse pointer over "Inbox" at the top, just to the left of "Alerts" and then select "Start a New Conversation" from the drop down menu on the right. I have started a conversation with yourself to make it easier, you will find it in your inbox, reply to that and it's like a PM, except it's more powerful since you can optionally invite more than just 2 members to the conversation.

 

[1MarkF]

The book "The Power of Empathy" by Ciaramicoli and Ketcham has end-of-chapter exercises to train empathy. It was recommended me by a CBT therapist.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Empathy-practical-creating-self-understanding/dp/0749921021

 

[Progster]

I agree with most of what you've said including the potential dangers, but there's no real medical benefit either because the negatively of taking them still far outweighs the positive in the long term. Ecstasy can make you feel great for a short time and at first the after effects when you come down aren't even too bad, but like most drugs your body gets used to it and you need more and more to have a similar effect, but even then after a while you could be taking literally 15 times the original dose and the "good" effects will still be disappointing (I've been there and the tablets weren't weak either because a friend was as high as a kite from taking just one of the same tablets as I used to be at first), then many people start looking for other drugs in the hope of feeling good once again, often harder ones and this is a serious danger too. Eventually you will be taking Ecstasy just to have a normal night that isn't even that amazing and it continues going downhill after that, but you won't be-able to go out without it and the come down will start to become horrid along with longer term depression and anxiety too. Even taking it in small quantities under medical supervision your body will gradually still get used to it and it will be detrimental in the long term as are numerous prescribed antidepressants today, plus I think Ecstasy was prescribed for a short while many years ago. It's definitely not recommended.

Any drug that makes you feel good when you have no actual reason for that feeling is like borrowing from a bank and you have to pay it back with interest, well in many cases it's more like borrowing from a loan shark.

This is one thing I can't relate to, why people take these drugs that they buy illegally off the street or black market, when it's so obvious that they are addictive and have side effects that are dangerous. For me this is a no-brainer. I've never been able to uderstand or relate to this. I've had my share of issues with mental health, anxiety and depression, including social anxiety, but I've never seen drugs as a viable solution, because I know that they have harmful and potentially very dangerous side effects, especially as the illegal market is unregulated and you don't know what you are getting. I want nothing to do with these whatsoever, and never have done, not even tobacco, which is legal, but extremely addictive and with some really nasty side effects, especially for long term users.

 

[Juliettaa]

Isn't this empathy thing overrated? After all, I've got enough going on in my own head with my dodgy neuro wiring without 'feeling' someone else's cr@p too.

 

[Judge]

I've posted many times on this subject what I consider to be a key element in the equation. That it isn't whether or not we have empathy, so much as it is that we are often unable to project it in a way which is meaningful to Neurotypicals. Just because we don't readily broadcast our thoughts and concerns of others doesn't mean we aren't capable of such.

 

[Nervous Rex]

At one point for me, I engaged in very deliberate "learn to empathize" activities.

I would see someone do something stupid in traffic that would usually set me off, but then I would look at them and realize they have a life outside of the car. They could be worrying about a job, money, health or family problems - any number of things I don't know about. Everyone has burdens, and I shouldn't expect them to be perfect around me just because I don't know what their burdens are.

Another thing I do is observe someone's behaviors and try to "reverse engineer" their thinking. Everyone works to maximize reward (basic game theory) - once you know what reward they're seeking (money, recognition, relationship, peace, achievement, love, affirmation, etc.), you can usually see how they think that their behavior will get them that reward. NT's don't always consciously seek to maximize rewards, but they always do it.

Using this analysis, I was able to go back in my memory and get inside the heads of some school bullies that I still harbored resentment towards for years. I could see that they honestly didn't know how their actions would affect me, and that they didn't have evil intentions - they were just acting carelessly and thoughtlessly. Once I understood that, I was able to frankly forgive them and let it go.

For me, the key to both these exercises is this: If I don't have empathy for someone, then I need to learn more about them.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Everyone works to maximize reward (basic game theory)

Not so sure.

Look at cognitive biases.
Read Daniel kahneman and Richard thaler.

It's more of an identity equalisation theory as i just made up.
Not optimum behaviour but what do people need to do to feel secure in their identities after events cause dissonance

 

[pjcnet]

This is one thing I can't relate to, why people take these drugs that they buy illegally off the street or black market, when it's so obvious that they are addictive and have side effects that are dangerous. For me this is a no-brainer. I've never been able to uderstand or relate to this. I've had my share of issues with mental health, anxiety and depression, including social anxiety, but I've never seen drugs as a viable solution, because I know that they have harmful and potentially very dangerous side effects, especially as the illegal market is unregulated and you don't know what you are getting. I want nothing to do with these whatsoever, and never have done, not even tobacco, which is legal, but extremely addictive and with some really nasty side effects, especially for long term users.

When you're young however you don't always think of this, you often just think of enjoying yourself now without considering future consequences, plus you always think that you won't get addicted and if you are severely depressed or missing something that drugs resolve, they give you a break even if you do have to pay it back with interest. Also when children are educated they need to be told the real truth about drugs, both good and bad, obviously the bad far outweighs the good, but I was told nothing except how bad they were and they lied because when you first take them you can have an incredible time, so you then think you've been lied to when you're young and/or inexperienced. When I got a little older I however realised, I stopped taking them and moved on.

Regarding harder drugs, well I went off the rails initially on a now banned antidepressant which made me feel invincible in a very dangerous and aggressive manner, the problem was I actually liked the feeling and it was like an addictive narcotic in itself, it gave me the confidence to do anything, I didn't have autistic anxieties any more, but I'd also have fantasy nightmares of fighting where I'd wake up punching out around me, normally I'm very placid. I truly was not myself and it's the same drug that caused a man to slaughter his entire family (he was acquitted), being on them I can honestly understand how it happened. I met a women who I later found was on heroin and crack, and I've always been attracted to "bad" women which has caused me nothing but hell (I've stayed single for 15+ years as well as being totally clean). Under the influence of the antidepressants I was hard and nasty which is what she needed and was attracted to, I even got her off the crack completely and down to minimal use of heroin by being hard, but when she slipped up I started using blackmail by using myself in front of her to make her feel guilty and get her to stop, E.g. you do it I do it, and it worked at first and she absolutely hated me doing it, until one day I woke up rattling and when I came off the antidepressants I was no longer tough and hard, then I got walked over and abused both physically and emotionally.

PS: I later found that the reason I'd been so exhausted and depressed was due to having an untreated under-active thyroid, I now don't believe in taking any antidepressants, but I definitely shouldn't have been prescribed them, let alone such a dangerous one that did that. There was numerous law suits in the USA regarding people who had been prescribed the antidepressant, a solicitor was interested in taking my case in the UK along with many others, but the case against such powerful and corrupt pharmaceuticals companies who of course have the highest paid lawyers to defend them unfortunately never began here.