How can I make it happen at my age?

[Steelbookcollector217]

I must admit that men can more easily be mistaken for creepy. When I was 18-19 I had a crush on a bus-driver, and would often wait around at bus stops for his bus then get on (luckily I had a free bus pass back then), and would flirt with him. The regular passengers (mostly elderly) began recognising me and joking to him "your wife's waiting for you!" But despite me being the one hanging around him (even though he liked it but he never touched me), he got reported by one passenger.
Now, if I was the guy and he was a female, I'd probably have been called creepy for hanging around the buses like that. But as a female, people just see it as annoying maybe, but not creepy.

So it must be hard for socially awkward guys to try and attract a woman without being mistaken for creepy. Unless a woman is being a bit crazy and seems like a danger to the public, but I wasn't.

Glad someone else agrees and I've long felt that way as well, women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or be perceived as weird or creepy when interacting with the other sex.

 

[tazz]

Truthfully, we females can and do initiate these contacts all the time, but I think we are more subtle than most men when we do it. Maybe fine-tune your observations of women in case you are overlooking the fact that we can and do take the first step in many situations?

I'm an old fart.

In my many years on this planet I've had several people (men and women) get so exasperated that I'm missing all their subtle advances that they just give in and tell me to my face that they're trying to suggest something romantic.

What @Mary Terry says seems to fit with my experience.

I don't know how to notice these things and I don't know how to send such subtle messages either.

That situation where theres a woman in a bar and some guy from across the room wanders up without any warning and asks for a date - I sorta think that's way more common in the movies than it is in real life.

Similarly, the idea that there are loads of women who are open to starting a romantic relationship, and they meet someone they are attracted to, and then let it pass just because it's his job to make the first move, doesn't fit with my experience. I get that some women think that way. But mostly it's a plot device in rom-coms designed to build suspense. She's waiting for him to make the first move. He's too nervous to say anything. Oh my, will they, won't they, it's such a rollercoaster, wait, wait, he's gonna do it... and... oh how wonderful he kissed her and she loves him... I'm crying with joy... pass the popcorn.

It's like @Neonatal RRT said, learn how to be comfortable with yourself (as much as you can) and not rely on others to make you happy. Put yourself in situations where you can interact with people without the goal of finding a soul mate. Perhaps, because we're autistic, I'd add that it's worth acknowledging that there may be all sorts of subtle advances that you're missing. And then try and muddle through from there.

 

[Mary Terry]

It's still very rare for a woman to ask a guy out or for a woman to be the one to approach a guy or let alone be the one to initiate the relationship

It is not rare for women to signal a willingness to meet or talk to a man. The signals are subtle, and you likely do not recognize them. Examples would be a woman giving a friendly smile to a man or choosing a seat in a restaurant close to the man.

From my observations of my children when they were teenagers and young adults, my daughters occasionally did ask "cute guys" or someone they were interested in, if they wanted to study together, or go grab a burger or soft drink or, when they were older, to ask guys if they wanted to go get a beer or glass of wine together, etc.

Times have changed quite a bit from when I was young and women who chased men quickly earned a bad reputation. There is a lot more acceptance of women doing that today than in the past, and a lot more women do it.

 

[Mary Terry]

Glad someone else agrees and I've long felt that way as well, women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or be perceived as weird or creepy when interacting with the other sex.

It has something to do with the fact that far more women get raped and sexually assaulted by men than men are raped or assaulted by women. We fear predatory men.

 

[Judge]

In so many of these kind of threads, often the first thing I ponder is what kind of woman the OP is actually willing to entertain as a romantic prospect. Especially if in truth it's based largely on looks alone. I mean, what is it that compels you to approach a woman in the first place?

And that if in fact they have a "shopping list" of per-conceived notions of who they are looking for, that's probably the most likely reason for failure.

Reminding me of a film that really hits home on this. An award-winning film called "Marty". About a lonely middle-aged butcher (Ernest Borgnine) who fails at connecting with all the pretty women. And that eventually he realizes that he himself is in no position to set his sights so high given he's a "dog" too. And that's when his prospects began to change...and he finds a very nice woman to become more than just friends with.

Some themes never change with time. And this story is older than I am. And I bet most of you have never heard of it. Newsflash. Most of us regardless of sexual orientation are "dogs". Let that be your "guiding light".

 

[Hypnalis]

It has something to do with the fact that far more women get raped and sexually assaulted by men than men are raped or assaulted by women. We fear predatory men.

This is a true statement, but it skews the context. I don't like seeing it in this kind of discussion.

1. It chooses one of the most extreme examples if a serious crime where the vast majority of victims are women. Contrast with: Men are significantly more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women.

Would a women choose a potentially dangerous place to approach a man? Of course not. No more than typical males choose to spend their free time acting aggressively in dangerous neighborhoods.
Both groups act rationally to avoid unnecessary risks.

2. Crime statistics and what they actually mean in terms of risk management are not simple to interpret.
It's easy to ignore this fundamental truth: many crimes, notably crimes of violence, are committed by a rather small percentage of people (those with malignant ASPD are vastly over-represented).
It's "one person 250 crimes" rather than "250 people, one crime each".

One effect is that measures by society to curb bad behavior often have no effect on the actual perpetrators, but make life more difficult for the majority in the center of the "bell curve". Done on too large a scale , with many laws enacted according to this principle, and the overall effect can be very negative for the majority, and catastrophic for people at the other end of the bell curve to (e.g.) the ASPDs.


Regarding approaching the opposite sex:

Just to be clear, I understand this as approaches with the clear intention of making a social connection.
I wouldn't count being asked where the dairy products are in a supermarket, regardless of whether some people might use that (see below for a little more detail).

I've been approached for the former purpose enough times to share my experience , but not enough to claim it's statistically meaningful.

What I've found is that women (all but perhaps two or three in my case) seem very unskilled at making that kind of conversation. The approaches are typically simplistic, with the apparent expectation of the man doing all the "social work" that's needed to move forward.

So in my experience, an M->F approach isn't really the same thing as an F->M approach. It's more like two different activities with the same name.

 

[tazz]

Times have changed quite a bit from when I was young and women who chased men quickly earned a bad reputation. There is a lot more acceptance of women doing that today than in the past, and a lot more women do it.

Perhaps this is a major part of the OP's problem. The bible belt is not known for taking a progressive stance on such matters.

I've tended to hang out with progressive people mostly. I've always thought of this "bad reputation" thing as something that only exists in black and white movies and really oppressive communities. In the circles I've moved in this sort of attitude would be really unusual.

So when people say 80% of women would expect the guy to make the first move, I just haven't experienced that myself but then maybe that's the kinda place they live in and people they mix with, and it's just very different to the world I've lived in.

 

[Masked Man]

Look - women make a first move all the time with guys they are interested in.

If you're a guy and you believe you have not had a woman show interest in you, it's because:

a. You didn't see it (because you're autistic and didn't recognize it - this is an autism board, after all. I mean, consider the obvious), or;
b. She's not interested in you

Honestly, dating and social interaction isn't a new mysterious thing. This dance has been going on for ages and it works for the guys who pick up on it and can respond in turn. Rather than complaining about it, you might be better off paying more attention to it. The men who can and do recognize social hints are obviously going to be more attractive to women because it shows that the guy has social and emotional intelligence in a similar way that physical attractiveness in women demonstrates health and fertility.

So work on your social skills guys. You can't escape it.

 

[Misty Avich]

It's still very rare for a woman to ask a guy out or for a woman to be the one to approach a guy or let alone be the one to initiate the relationship

Yes I believe the pressure is on the man more than the woman, also with what I explained earlier about men being easily mistaken for being creepy even when they're not.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Yes I believe the pressure is on the man more than the woman, also with what I explained earlier about men being easily mistaken for being creepy even when they're not.

Yes and unfortunately guys, men, can get labeled creepy even when they had good intentions, were never trying to hurt anyone. It's a reminder that, society and people expect guys to have common sense or just have the social intuition for knowing what is creepy behavior and what is not

 

[zaphod]

Yes and unfortunately guys, men, can get labeled creepy even when they had good intentions, were never trying to hurt anyone. It's a reminder that, society and people expect guys to have common sense or just have the social intuition for knowing what is creepy behavior and what is not

I know dating apps aren't perfect, but for someone with your issue about approaching women (I have the same), you can't ask for a much better solution. I found my (now ex) wife through a dating app. Yes, you still generally need to make the first move but there's no risk in being labelled creepy.

Bumble even forces women to make the first move, if that's what you want. That being said bumble was a waste of time for me since women had to message first but they'd match with me and never message.

 

[Masked Man]

Yes and unfortunately guys, men, can get labeled creepy even when they had good intentions, were never trying to hurt anyone. It's a reminder that, society and people expect guys to have common sense or just have the social intuition for knowing what is creepy behavior and what is not

These guys may not intuitively know what is creepy behavior and what is not - but the good thing is they have the ability to learn!

That's the good news - if you graduated from school, have a job, can learn how to operate your favorite video games, can learn other complex tasks, etc., you also have the ability to learn social interactions. There's really no reason why you can't. It takes practice but it's possible if it's something that is truly important to you.

 

[zaphod]

I think you're oversimplifying it.

The exact same behaviour can be fun and flirty vs. weird/creepy/annoying depending on if a woman finds a man attractive. NT people can and do really struggle with this. For an autistic man you can also add all the standard ASD issues plus some likely comorbidities to make it even harder (social anxiety, rejection sensitivity, alexithymia - on and on).

I've accepted that it's best just to not approach women in person unless it's obvious she wants you to. This is why I feel dating apps are the best approach.

 

[Masked Man]

The exact same behaviour can be fun and flirty vs. weird/creepy/annoying depending on if a woman finds a man attractive.

Yes - that's why it's vital you learn basic social skills. That's literally my point.

 

[zaphod]

My point is that you're taking perhaps the most difficult social scenario for neurotypical men...

75% of men are too scared to chat up women | StaturePR

Almost half of young men have never approached a woman romantically; study.

https://katya-koval.medium.com/why-men-dont-approach-women-anymore-159975861c08

https://twitter.com/x/status/1688944613602492416

and boiling it down to a lack of easy to learn "basic social skills" for the segment of the population where this is exponentially more difficult.

It's very dismissive

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Yes - that's why it's vital you learn basic social skills. That's literally my point.

Reminds me of a mindset I've had for years now

 

[Hypnalis]

@zaphod

Just a reminder: the use of "scared to approach" is, as a general rule, a "dog whistle".

Reluctance to make a "cold" approach is not the "fight/flight" kind of adrenaline-pumped body reaction the phrasing above evokes. They use it rather than something neutral because the whistler (or the source of their ideology) is trying to "sell" a perspective on the behavior of their supposed "opposition".

Approach/Don't Approach decisions are the result of a rational risk/reward calculation.
Is it fear (as in "afraid to act" fear) to consider risks as well as rewards? As, for example, we do all the time when making business decisions. Or in fact the majority of decisions, small and large, we make in life.

Only via equivocation.

Men are approaching less because if they're not in the "magic 20%" the odds of success are low, and both the odds of an impolite rejection and the risk of a false accusation that's accepted by others are literally the highest they've ever been.

Of course the statistics are changing. It's the rational response: selecting the "no go" side of the "go/no go" decision should be less common, because the value of the "go" side is way down, and the disadvantages of the "no go" side are way up.

"The truth will out" as the saying goes - but not always in the way you first expect.

IMO it's just more experimental evidence for the Law of Unexpected Consequences /lol.

BTW - I view Chris Williamson as a source that tries hard (and almost always succeeds) to be an honest, unbiased, and accurate source of information. And he's an outstanding interviewer.
His is easily my favorite YouTube channel.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Yeah it's long been a sarcastic mindset of mine but I like to feel men need to have much better social skills than women do in order to succeed in dating

 

[Masked Man]

Chris Williamson is just another red pill grifter - one amongst many, unfortunately.

I think if you are concerned about male mental health then talk about how men can improve their own mental health - support each other, challenge male on male violence, etc., - but what he, and other grifters like him, tends to do is steer the conversation to women and what women are doing.

Women are now general better educated and more financially independent - and all of this is delivered by him in a negative way to imply that the rise of female autonomy hurts men. There's no encouragement offered for men on how to adapt to modern society.

You'll notice he also says he doesn't like opinionated (read intellectual) women. I guess he feels embarrassed if his world view is challenged by a female. He needs to be the cleverest one in the room which points to a further insecurity.

He's a grifter like all the rest of them. And shame on anyone who can't see that obvious fact.

 

[Cryptid]

Chris Williamson, like so many other insecure men, blames women for making men feel less 'manly'. No woman can make a man feel this way without the man's full cooperation, even if the man denies it or doesn't even realize it.

After reading his biography, it is easy to see that the abuse he received from his mother still resonates within him.

In my unqualified opinion, he seeks from women the approval and assurance that he never received from his mother, and reacts with hostility when he does not receive it.

Despite his wealth and popularity, it must really suck to be him.