Explanations perceived as excuses

[umbrellabeach]

Whenever I had meltdowns (they have decreased since I got my own room and bathroom far away in the house from the rest of my stress-inducing, routine-destroying family; I still have them once in a while but my family doesn't see them so much anymore) and my dad happened to be around to witness them, even though he knows I have AS, he would yell at me, call me an "immature baby," and tell me to stop "throwing temper tantrums." If I ever tried to explain meltdowns to him, he'd accuse me of making excuses. There's no hope for him.
My mom has similar reactions, only milder - and she's the one who diagnosed me!

 

[Mr Allen]

I've been accused of "making excuses" as to why I can't get a job due to Asperger's, these people are morons however and don't understand my problems, they'd rather be as offensive as possible towards me.

 

[Rich Gray]

“I have a suggestion that may improve our productivity.

Would it be possible to have a copy of the procedures involved before the work reaches my desk? With this information I would know whether or not work submitted to me was complete or not.

Surgeons and pilots make use of checklists in order to insure that they remember to cover everything, and such checklists have proved to be highly valuable. Perhaps we could implement a checklist into the formatting of our procedures.

Information missing from the procedure (or checklist) could then be sent back to be completed, and the procedure or checklist could be cited. This could highlight possible areas of attention that could be addressed in order to improve our overall productivity.”

 

[Rich Gray]

Anecdotally, I was once put in a mental hospital. I made the mistake of explaining to the psychiatrist (PhD and everything) about how I have to take a calculated approach to social interactions, and I make a lot of mistakes because of my ASD. She asked me "how often do you use your autism to try to get out of things?" and she diagnosed me a sociopath.

I was absolutely galled that she dared to say something like that to me. I refused to recognize her diagnosis and said many things that really did not help my case, in retrospect, but I was beyond pissed and I refused to comply with treatment from that doctor, just for that comment. I was at a 3-day-stay facility, but I held onto my pride for four months until I finally caved and agreed with her diagnosis and got out the next day. Ha, I actually kinda miss the staff there, I got to know them well.

Wow . . . I would have had that doctors head on a platter (or an apology). After she defined what she meant by the word excuse. Especially if I could get that in writing. Holy cow . . . that is incompetence.

 

[WildCat]

I hate this. A LOT. I've gotten several of these, it's a good thing I forgot about them now so I can't post on my experiences.

I do get the general pattern though: it seems like if you don't fit into a nice little box, everyone tries to cram you into it without regards to any possible damage being done to your well being. It's this sink-or-swim mentality that puts many of us at a disadvantage, even when we're more than capable given the right supports and assistance.

 

[Rich Gray]

I have trouble with executive functions so being organized and productive is really hard to me. When I explained it, the person said that since I got 98% in philosophy, which involves abstract thinking (though it doesn't feel abstract to me), I should be able to be organised and productive, even though these two things are totally different

You are an X, and X's are good at Y, therefore you should always be good at Y regardless of the tools, situation, individual strengths, or individual weaknesses?

She is either thinks that there is only one solution to a problem (or one best solution), or she is messing with you.

"I appreciate your insight into my thought process. I am a person who is able to able be organised and be productive. There are variations on approaches to achieving these goals. My requests are to further the goals of organization and productivity via maximizing my efficiency."

I bet you are likely an INTJ, take a few Meyers Briggs personality tests, and send her the results of the one that makes you look the best. If you are an INTJ, then a common central drive is efficiency (usually organization and usually productivity). You can point this out to her in as nice of a way as possible. Present it as a way for her to better understand you.

But being organized is not always a productive way to create efficiency. Alphabetizing the 101 cans of food in your pantry is being organized. This is likely not a efficient use of time, and will almost always have a negligible effect on the productive preparation of meals.

Productivity at what? There is that time, money or quality triangle. You normally can pick two. What is the objective of productivity here? You need to know the objectives before being productive.

Is this a $1 McDonald's hamburger productivity, or a $25 hamburger at a upscale restraint productivity?

Just saying "go be productive" . . . is pretty much useless without expectations being set . . . hopefully in a written procedure.

 

[Judge]

What a nasty subject. Yet a very real one for so many of us.

What comes to mind is how precarious it can be when there are traits and behaviors for which we may have some nominal degree of control. Which causes some NTs in our orbit to assume that if we can manage one we can manage another- and another. And so on. It simply ain't true!

 

[EstimatedProphet]

So, sometimes I'm asked why this or that got delayed or didn't work well. If it comes from me, I take full ownership, but usually it started much earlier in the chain. And I'll explain exactly that: what was not properly done, and what steps I took to fix it, how much more time it took compared to what was scheduled (you know, before somebody went and ruined things), etc. My rationale behind this is that we need to clearly identify each and every thing that can be improved upon, with the end goal of not seeing those mistakes again, and saving time, so more efficiency.

My managers view this as making excuses.

This crap used to drive me crazy when I worked at law firms (long before I learned I had AS). A colleague or superior screws up something and tries to passive-aggressively pin the blame on you, then when you call them out on their BS, everybody calls it an "outburst" and "you're being unreasonable" and "you have a bad attitude" "not a team player" etc etc etc. Being (essentially) unable to lie and easily outmaneuvered in social situations, coupled with a fierce expectation of fairness and absolutely zero ******** tolerance level makes for poor office politics ability!! But eventually found a workaround. It'll drive you nuts doing it, but it works.

--Do exactly as you described above when questioned. "I'll explain exactly that: what was not properly done, and what steps I took to fix it, how much more time it took compared to what was scheduled (you know, before somebody went and ruined things), etc." BUT THEN add "But its partly my fault. I should have [made-up minor mistake you made, such as "I stupidly thought X would be a fix, but it was a waste of time" or "I should've noticed sooner" or "I thought I could get finished more quickly", etc.]. Make sure you've explained the situation in detail, then admit to some minor mistake, and apologize profusely for the error.

99 times out of 100, the boss will say "no no, it's okay, you did the best you could, you inherited this mess" etc. An example: let's say I'm working on a project that wasn't finished on time because Jimmy did a lousy, sloppy job on the part he worked on, and I had to fix all his mistakes. I'd say "It was tough because part X [Jimmy's responsibility, as the boss will know] was so poorly written I had to revise the whole thing, which took almost two days. But it's my fault because I should've reviewed part X before I went home Monday night [when you worked late with the boss until 9pm, as the boss also knows] instead of first thing Tuesday morning. If I had looked at it Monday night, I could've worked through the night to meet the deadline. It's my fault, really." You gotta act really remorseful, almost disgusted with yourself.

Thusly, you clearly place the blame where it belongs without naming any names, then look like a great guy/gal by taking responsibility for something clearly beyond your control, and you're quickly forgiven for your minor transgression.

Of course it did take me around 15 years to figure this out!

 

[Katleya]

@Judge I do agree it is a nasty subject, but I guess I kind of needed to know if that was AS-related or not.
It's a catch-22 situation, though: now that I know that it is, if I try to talk about it, people will say I'm using my autism to get away with it. Ughhh

“I have a suggestion that may improve our productivity.

Would it be possible to have a copy of the procedures involved before the work reaches my desk? With this information I would know whether or not work submitted to me was complete or not.

Surgeons and pilots make use of checklists in order to insure that they remember to cover everything, and such checklists have proved to be highly valuable. Perhaps we could implement a checklist into the formatting of our procedures.

Information missing from the procedure (or checklist) could then be sent back to be completed, and the procedure or checklist could be cited. This could highlight possible areas of attention that could be addressed in order to improve our overall productivity.”

I really like that approach. It might come off as cold-blooded to some colleagues, but I'm all for checklists and non-emotional ways of presenting thing. Too bad I can't be a pilot...

.Being (essentially) unable to lie and easily outmaneuvered in social situations, coupled with a fierce expectation of fairness and absolutely zero ******** tolerance level makes for poor office politics ability!! But eventually found a workaround. It'll drive you nuts doing it, but it works.

--Do exactly as you described above when questioned. "I'll explain exactly that: what was not properly done, and what steps I took to fix it, how much more time it took compared to what was scheduled (you know, before somebody went and ruined things), etc." BUT THEN add "But its partly my fault. I should have [made-up minor mistake you made, such as "I stupidly thought X would be a fix, but it was a waste of time" or "I should've noticed sooner" or "I thought I could get finished more quickly", etc.]. Make sure you've explained the situation in detail, then admit to some minor mistake, and apologize profusely for the error.

99 times out of 100, the boss will say "no no, it's okay, you did the best you could, you inherited this mess" etc. An example: let's say I'm working on a project that wasn't finished on time because Jimmy did a lousy, sloppy job on the part he worked on, and I had to fix all his mistakes. I'd say "It was tough because part X [Jimmy's responsibility, as the boss will know] was so poorly written I had to revise the whole thing, which took almost two days. But it's my fault because I should've reviewed part X before I went home Monday night [when you worked late with the boss until 9pm, as the boss also knows] instead of first thing Tuesday morning. If I had looked at it Monday night, I could've worked through the night to meet the deadline. It's my fault, really." You gotta act really remorseful, almost disgusted with yourself.

Thusly, you clearly place the blame where it belongs without naming any names, then look like a great guy/gal by taking responsibility for something clearly beyond your control, and you're quickly forgiven for your minor transgression.

Of course it did take me around 15 years to figure this out!

"Essentially unable to lie, fierce expectation of fairness, zero tolerance of ********": sometimes I think I should write that at the top of my résumé I mean, if a proper, conventional one doesn't work... why not try an outrageously true-to-my-nature? (Just kidding. I think)
All jokes aside, I like your approach too, but what if the bosses aren't people who acknowledge you're staying late already, etc.? Wouldn't there be a risk that you end up being blamed for the entire thing, and be seen as fully incompetent, when you were really just trying not to throw Jimmy under the bus? Also, umm... what if you made no mistakes but are held accountable for those of other people? I'd be uncomfortable apologizing for that, but I understand now how some may see it as not a team player.

 

[Ronin82]

This is an Aspie thing??? O man, now it all makes sense!! I'd be so caught up in trying to explain why I'm having difficulty with something while learning martial arts, that teachers would refuse to teach me, saying I was making excuses or had a bad attitude, when I was really just trying to process what my brain was busy doing, and find a workaround for my uncoordinated muscles. I've come to the conclusion recently that there's nothing wrong with me or my abilities, I'm just surrounded by A**holes....

 

[Judge]

@Judge I do agree it is a nasty subject, but I guess I kind of needed to know if that was AS-related or not.
It's a catch-22 situation, though: now that I know that it is, if I try to talk about it, people will say I'm using my autism to get away with it. Ughhh

ASD. Perhaps the ultimate manifestation of Catch-22 in that respect.

The important thing is that you- and we know the truth.

 

[Ocarina]

Tricky when you're parenting a child on the spectrum - I have two - and you need to set boundaries, establish rules, separate the genuine childish misbehaviour with all the excuses/ explanations from ASD related behaviours that are unintentional and non negotiable.

I am on the spectrum too but still haven't cracked this one....

 

[pax]

Lessons Learned in Life | There is a big difference between giving up and letting go.

This popped up on my social media. On the same theme, though not exactly the same: people who don't know what you go through or where you're coming from don't get to judge.

 

[Katleya]

This is an Aspie thing??? O man, now it all makes sense!! I'd be so caught up in trying to explain why I'm having difficulty with something while learning martial arts, that teachers would refuse to teach me, saying I was making excuses or had a bad attitude, when I was really just trying to process what my brain was busy doing, and find a workaround for my uncoordinated muscles. I've come to the conclusion recently that there's nothing wrong with me or my abilities, I'm just surrounded by A**holes....

Or maybe option C: it is an Aspie thing AND you are surrounded by a**holes. It doesn't seem like these are mutually exclusive options

ASD. Perhaps the ultimate manifestation of Catch-22 in that respect.

The important thing is that you- and we know the truth.

True. I guess I'm a little disappointed that it is ASD-related, because that means it's likely to carry on unless I refrain myself from processing things out loud, and then that will be draining to (but hey, maybe the approache suggested earlier will deflate some of the criticism and judgment that may arise, so I shouldn't worry before trying), and at the same time, I'm kind of... relieved? Means I'm not the childish excuse-making person NTs try to convince me that I am.

Lessons Learned in Life | There is a big difference between giving up and letting go.

This popped up on my social media. On the same theme, though not exactly the same: people who don't know what you go through or where you're coming from don't get to judge.

Thank you for that link, pax. And your analysis, which can be quoted verbatim, with less adverse consequences than "F... you, you don't know me."

 

[EstimatedProphet]

@Judge "Essentially unable to lie, fierce expectation of fairness, zero tolerance of ********": sometimes I think I should write that at the top of my résumé I mean, if a proper, conventional one doesn't work... why not try an outrageously true-to-my-nature? (Just kidding. I think)
All jokes aside, I like your approach too, but what if the bosses aren't people who acknowledge you're staying late already, etc.? Wouldn't there be a risk that you end up being blamed for the entire thing, and be seen as fully incompetent, when you were really just trying not to throw Jimmy under the bus? Also, umm... what if you made no mistakes but are held accountable for those of other people? I'd be uncomfortable apologizing for that, but I understand now how some may see it as not a team player.

The part about the boss knowing you worked late was just an exaggeration for effect. The point is, I AM throwing Jimmy under the bus by not doing so. Clear as mud, right? For some reason, you can place the blame where it belongs all you want so long as you admit you made some sort of mistake as well (even if you have to make something up)--not doing so makes NTs perceive you as arrogant.

If you're held accountable for other's mistakes, try discussing with the person who made the mistake first. In my example, I could go to Jimmy acting really confused and asking him to explain why he wrote/did it that way, as if I'm giving Jimmy the opportunity to impart his genius upon me, which NTs are always more than happy to do. Then if the boss asks, I can say "well Jimmy told me he did it this (wrong) way because...."

The best thing to do is operate on the assumption that everybody is always looking for a reason to be offended at the tiniest perceived slight, so bend over backwards to make it explicitly clear you're not casting aspersions and mean no disrespect. Go overboard. Ham it up. Think of it as a game (which it is).

As Aspies, we simply want to merrily work away at our assigned tasks and otherwise be left alone, and believe we should expect to be recognized for producing superior work product. Unfortunately neither of these expectations are realistic in NT-land. Penelope Trunk writes about this a lot on her blog.

 

[EstimatedProphet]

"..my stress-inducing, routine-destroying family..."

LOL, I know exactly what you mean! Especially on vacations or holidays with the extended fam -- it's like an unofficial game of hide-and-seek. I slip away to somewhere in/around the house to read or decompress for a little while. A family member spots me and SIMPLY MUST come over, plop down, and start asking pointless questions just for conversation sake. And Woe Be Unto You if you say "hey, I'm just enjoying a little alone time, can I catch up with you later?" Then you're the biggest jerk in the world who is too good to speak to anybody.

 

[Rich Gray]

I was assuming that pointing out the work of others needing correcting brought the fear of the social situation inherent in telling others that their work is not complete.

If this is the case, then find a way to address this issue. My advice above was an attempt to address this assumption, and otherwise would be the choice I would peruse.

 

[Rich Gray]

I have found that being honest, admitting my mistakes, laughing at myself, and pointing out that everyone makes mistakes works for me.

I am happy to have a job, so I am generally happy, do whatever is asked of me, and I try to tell the good story about others. This seems to be a winning combination. Offering positive scenarios for people making an error seems to go a long way in making folks relaxed. I am liking this way of handling things.

If you can get a copy of the procedure, then you could mention that perhaps the procedure needs updating, but do not besmirch the procedure itself, as someone you work with likely wrote it.

Say something like: "While this is a great procedure, adding XZY to it would avoid this confusion in the future. It is hard to forecast for every eventuality."

Try to make everyone look good. The author of the procedure for writing it, the co-worker for following it, and everyone involved for finding an opportunity to add to the procedure.

 

[Katleya]

The part about the boss knowing you worked late was just an exaggeration for effect. The point is, I AM throwing Jimmy under the bus by not doing so. Clear as mud, right? For some reason, you can place the blame where it belongs all you want so long as you admit you made some sort of mistake as well (even if you have to make something up)--not doing so makes NTs perceive you as arrogant.

If you're held accountable for other's mistakes, try discussing with the person who made the mistake first. In my example, I could go to Jimmy acting really confused and asking him to explain why he wrote/did it that way, as if I'm giving Jimmy the opportunity to impart his genius upon me, which NTs are always more than happy to do. Then if the boss asks, I can say "well Jimmy told me he did it this (wrong) way because...."

The best thing to do is operate on the assumption that everybody is always looking for a reason to be offended at the tiniest perceived slight, so bend over backwards to make it explicitly clear you're not casting aspersions and mean no disrespect. Go overboard. Ham it up. Think of it as a game (which it is).

As Aspies, we simply want to merrily work away at our assigned tasks and otherwise be left alone, and believe we should expect to be recognized for producing superior work product. Unfortunately neither of these expectations are realistic in NT-land. Penelope Trunk writes about this a lot on her blog.

The reasoning on NT's part is quite twisted, then, but I see what you mean. It makes me a little sad, because I always try to give others a chance to make up for their shortcomings or to clean up their act so that they don't get in trouble, which seems to be close to what you're suggesting, but even then... there are hardly any problems with honest people who work in good faith. Those who couldn't care less about their work, but don't have the guts to take ownership of their intentional mistakes and are happy to see someone else be blamed, well, those are much harder to deal with.

I have found that being honest, admitting my mistakes, laughing at myself, and pointing out that everyone makes mistakes works for me.

I am happy to have a job, so I am generally happy, do whatever is asked of me, and I try to tell the good story about others. This seems to be a winning combination. Offering positive scenarios for people making an error seems to go a long way in making folks relaxed. I am liking this way of handling things.

If you can get a copy of the procedure, then you could mention that perhaps the procedure needs updating, but do not besmirch the procedure itself, as someone you work with likely wrote it.

Say something like: "While this is a great procedure, adding XZY to it would avoid this confusion in the future. It is hard to forecast for every eventuality."

Try to make everyone look good. The author of the procedure for writing it, the co-worker for following it, and everyone involved for finding an opportunity to add to the procedure.

Indeed. Younger me once was tasked with proofreading a text, in another company. Little did I know said those pages, which seemed to have been translated by a kindergartner over the phone in a noisy train station, had been written by no less than the Communications director. So I proofread and edited the document as requested, and they freaked out when they saw the amount of correction. I said something to the effect of "Maybe you should be more careful when choosing who you outsource technical texts to, because this company basically stole your money" and... that was my last week there. So I learned that lesson and I try to apply it.
I just still can't understand how to deal with people who neglect their work. You know, those who neither know where the procedure is kept, nor that they are invited to follow it. You can't get anything out of them because they hate their jobs and feel that everyone else should share their contempt :/

 

[Chris Russell]

This wonderful thread reads like a lesson in Transactional analysis! A step by step help guide with how to successfully carry on a social interaction without invalidating a colleague, or devaluing your own contribution. Wouldn't it be great if this wasn't necessary? What is being described here is similar to the old ball-game analogy of inequality/equality/equity... (only the tall kid can see over the fence/give all the kids the same box to stand on, so the short kid still can't see over the fence/give the kids different size boxes appropriate for their height so they can all see over the fence.) I prefer the version where the last option is liberation (take away the fence). Liberation in the sense that the communication barriers are removed and NTs and Aspies use a common language. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people are OK. They are not deliberately trying to make my life difficult and they do not simply dislike me. It is up to us to tell people what we need, but they have to meet us by caring enough to really listen, and to be patient. I have had the luxury of trying out a new way of communicating that seems to do the trick, and at least on the people who genuinely want to understand, it works wonders.