Dating advice please

[aspieandconfused_87]

He doesn’t want to go on a second date. He may be giving you excuses or not, but does it really matter the reason?
If a guy wants to date you they will figure out a way to do it and this guy does want to.
Sorry, he sounded nice. Time to meet the next guy and put this one in the past.

Yeah it has been my experience that this goes both ways, if a girl really is interested in a guy she will find a way to meet up with him, or at minimum make plans to meet up, when people start having all kinds of reasons why they can't meet you or can't reply to a text unless they lost their phone, or something happened that prevents them from reaching out to someone, then the only excuse is that they just don't really feel a strong desire or connection to make time for you, yes occasionally things legitimately come up but if it is more than a few times in a row expect that they are not very into you and want to move on but people don't like to be the bad guy so they either ghost you or do the right thing and eventually tell you that they want to end things.

My issue is I don't usually get more than a few messages in before they just stop replying to me, sometimes they don't even reply to the very first message even though they matched with me, so annoying.

But yeah stay positive my dear and keep trying,

Brent

 

[Onna]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

I’m feeling embarrassed for having been so ‘involved’?

I can see why he backed off!

Think I need to get out more! I f*cking hate socialising though, I’m so cr*p at it. I’m just going to have to be brave. Wish me luck

 

[Moomin]

DOnt blame yourself. Focus on yourself for the time being. I’m sorry that it didn’t work out.

 

[Onna]

DOnt blame yourself. Focus on yourself for the time being. I’m sorry that it didn’t work out.

Bless you Moomin, that’s very kind.

It’s part of the self esteem I was talking about. I need to find a good balance between self esteem and taking responsibility.

I think ultimately I shouldn’t blame myself for acting on my emotions, but if I want to change the outcome next time around then, I’ll need to take responsibility for the consequences of my actions.
Human behaviour is so complex!
I think it’s a special interest for me, which can be quite useful because my special interest can have real positive results. But it can also be draining and emotional.

 

[Autistamatic]

Human behaviour is so complex!
I think it’s a special interest for me, which can be quite useful because my special interest can have real positive results. But it can also be draining and emotional.

It has been for me too, which has helped me get through life, but it also complicates things because it gives you so many different perspectives to view a given situation or exchange. One of the things that makes NT people breeze through areas of life that we find difficult is that they often only see the one, emotional perspective that is unique to them, but they can be known to assume theirs is very similar or identical to everyone else's. We may see multiple perspectives from outside the emotional bubble, and if you study behaviour and psychology, the possibilities expand exponentially. Can mess wi yer heed!

 

[Onna]

breeze through areas of life that we find difficult is that they often only see the one, emotional perspective that is unique to them, but they assume is very similar or identical to everyone else's.

can you give an example? Because I think this could be a key thing that I’d like to understand. ‘One emotional perspective unique to them’ sounds as though it would cause a lot of conflict, and although there is a lot of conflict in this typically NT world, the average NT like you said ‘breezes through life’ compared to us. To be blunt (and with no judgement intended) perhaps it’s the ‘art of not giving a sh*t’? I sometimes feel that it’s their world that we get to observe them living it. We can try join in, but it’ll never quite feel the same.

Instead we have our own purpose, like the universe is trying to rebalance or something. Our skills, plus their skills could prove useful in future generations.

 

[Mattymatt]

Dating is tough and full of mixed signals. It always hurts to be on the receiving end of rejection and I'm sure it was made doubly difficult by the fact that you had to work up the courage to do this. You've overcome your anxiety only to have this not work out.

I have some debriefing advice for you. The dating world deals in subtlety which is something that a lot of folks on the spectrum don't understand the nuances of. When you got upset at the guy for not answering your question about a second date, it spooked him. It's understandable that you want clarification but the dating world doesn't work that way. Next time, instead of proposing a second date as a question, a simple "I would like to see you again" is better. The subtle difference is that there is no pressure implied. As a guy, if a woman got upset thati didn't answer a question so early in dating, that would be a red flag to me.

Dating is essentially a screening process for a potential mate: It's not like a friendship. Whether you are aware of it or not, you're putting your potential mate under a microscope to see if him or her would be a good match for you.

The key is subtle indirect communication. I know it's mostly playing the NT socializing game and there's a ton of B.S. that goes along with it but if you're patient and play the game, you'll be rewarded. Another key is not to take rejection personally. When I feel inclined to take it personally, I tell myself that this could just as easily be me rejecting the other person. Upon this realization, the hurt is substantially less.

 

[Mattymatt]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

I’m feeling embarrassed for having been so ‘involved’?

I can see why he backed off!

Think I need to get out more! I f*cking hate socialising though, I’m so cr*p at it. I’m just going to have to be brave. Wish me luck

And another thing, please don't go so hard on yourself because you have a takeaway from the experience: you're able to date and your social skills are pretty darn good. In a nutshell, you're dateable! Dating is a skill that must be learned, developed, and cultivated. The fact that you're receptive to feedback and learning means that you *will* succeed given time and experience.

 

[Onna]

And another thing, please don't go so hard on yourself because you have a takeaway from the experience: you're able to date and your social skills are pretty darn good. In a nutshell, you're dateable! Dating is a skill that must be learned, developed, and cultivated. The fact that you're receptive to feedback and learning means that you *will* succeed given time and experience.

Thank you Matty, I appreciate that.
The most difficult thing reading these responses has been hearing comments such as ‘possessive’ ‘control freak’ ‘red flag’.
Thats really scared me. It’s incredibly uncomfortable to hear. But at the same time I’d rather hear it than be aloof. It’s really really important to me that I recognise from other people’s perspectives why they chose those words. I need to understand it in order to fix it. I don’t want to be the kind of person who does those things.

 

[Bronzelincolns]

people make time for the things that are important to them.

 

[Sid Delicious]

"Can I ask, why you think it was ok that he didn’t reply to the question about meeting up again in his next text to me? (Around 4 days after the date). But in his next text to me, he had enough time to apologise for not answering, but still didn’t answer. I’ts not the kind of question you want to be waiting around for an answer for. For me it’s a scary question to ask, waiting for a response on that question wasn’t nice, because it took me to be brave to ask it in the first place. If it had been a less significant question then I’d have understood, but I don’t think anyone would enjoy waiting to hear if someone liked you enough to meet again, then replying to you, but not replying to the question."

It's difficult to know what his specific reasoning was, so I can only go by my own (which may be entirely different). If I'm going through a very busy time and trying to juggle multiple things at once, then I only have so much 'brain space' and have prioritise things like work and any serious unavoidable things. A person I've met once and barely know won't be at the top of my list of things to remember, however nice they are. I'm running in survival mode and socialising just isn't an immediate enough concern. So he likely wasn't thinking about the date or you much at all (either positively or negatively) during that time in between. If you'd have waited until things calmed down and he had more time/energy/focus to devote to secondary things like dating, then he may have got in touch and arranged for a second date (maybe - I'm just assuming here). Not demanding attention would have shown you would be a good fit for his likely busy lifestyle and would be worth pursuing long term. But showing the opposite was a signal to him that in future you would likely need/expect far more time and attention from him that he would have available and therefore you would not be a good match.

Also, 4 days isn't a huge amount of time after a date. Most people are busy with full time work, hobbies and other things and might be dating a few people to begin with until they meet someone that seems like a good match. So he had no reason to apologise for anything at that point. To me, it did seem like you came on far too intense and that scared him off. But again, I'm making huge assumptions here and none of us can really know for sure what he was thinking. I'd just put it down to a learning experience and maybe focus on building your confidence a bit before venturing out on another date. Then you'll be in a better frame of mind to attract the right person.

I would also add that if you do need someone who is a bit more understanding in a relationship, then someone like this man probably wouldn't have been a good match in the long run. People like him need a partner who can cope with the insanely busy periods in their lives without being emotionally impacted by it. For example, there are times of the year where I will disappear and barely speak to anyone for several weeks as I just have far too much work. I could never date someone who gets upset by that or feels neglected. They need to be pretty independant and not require constant reassurance. There are advantages and disadvantages of dating someone who runs a business, as there are to dating someone who has an easy 9-to-5 job with a lot of time/energy to hang out but less money. Neither is better. It just depends what you personally want/need. So I'd sit down and think about what your priorities are in a relationship and where you are happy to compromise.

 

[Autistamatic]

An Aspie who likes to feel they are in control and who gets frustrated at the apparent irrational decisions and behaviour of the people they interact with???
Good heavens to Betsy! Have you ever heard of such a thing?!?!?!

AWOOGA
AWOOGA
ESSAY ALERT!
THERE'S AN ESSAY COMING!
AWOOGA


Onna - you are not a control freak any more than any of us is, but I think what people have been saying, quite rightly too, is that it's easy for our behaviour to be perceived this way by others.
All you have done is try to relieve your uncertainty and anxiety over an unexplained apparent lack of interest from another party. Any one of us could and would have done similar. Even if we didn't ACT on the impulse to contact the guy, we would likely have thought about it and wanted to.
His misinterpretation of your interest and desire to control your own uncertainty is a risk we always take and one of which can have very little control of the outcome. In essence - if he thinks you are a pushy cow then that's on him - his take on things. You know your intentions were far from pushy and motivated by vulnerability, not a desire to be possessive.
This is kind of what I was saying above which you asked for an example of. The opinion one has about the actions of another can be either emotionally driven or rationally driven. In most people there is a balance between the two although biased in one direction. It is not unusual for someone on the spectrum to be biased towards rationality as it is not uncommon for NT people to take the emotional route. Neither is a given rule and the approach will not only vary by person but by the nature of the situation in question and the personal history of the person making judgement.
Part of the function of natural "Theory of Mind" (ToM) and "Cognitive Empathy" is to make unconscious judgements of the intentions and future behaviour of others based on learned experience. It amounts to snap judgements - decisions made in an instant that govern our reactions and it is human nature to rely on and abide by those decisions. It is a contiguous property of ToM to also believe that your interpretation of another person's motivation is correct and would be shared by others.
An Aspie who may have a less effective facility for ToM will either make emotional decisions which appear flawed and sometimes childish to others (lashing out, refusing to take advice they asked for, never admitting to being wrong etc.), or is fully aware of their lacking in this department and makes up for it in conscious evaluation. It is the latter type which I believe you, me and a significant number of people in this community who have expressed their own inability to let things go, their constant reevaluation of past events, their confusion at the irrationality of others and many other problems, are a part of.
The common perception of autistic people is that our lesser degree of ToM is the former type - that we make immature, poorly informed decisions. The truth seems to be that whilst some of us do, others are making very carefully considered (and slower) decisions based upon deep thought and calculation that may be far more balanced and rational than the "usually right" gut instinct decisions made by our NT peers.
In your situation, a person with a fully functional ToM may have just thought;
"Bugger it - he's clearly not interested" and moved on. They would not have spent days poring over it, thought of all the possibilities, doubted themselves and then come on a public forum like this and discussed it at depth. They wouldn't need to. ToM makes the decision for them, they know they are right and they would tell their friends of their decision in the full belief that those friends would agree with their take on events.
As I said in the ToM video a couple of months back, an Aspie who doubts their judgement due to a lesser ToM and tries to compensate through systemising situations, has a kind of emotional "pause button" that causes them to stop and rethink before reacting. It's slow and infuriating to some NTs but it helps us make better decisions.
If you have perfectly functional ToM you may make some poor decisions, but you are unlikely to blame yourself and can "breeze through life" happy in the knowledge that whatever you do, it's what "everyone would have done". Having a poor ToM backed up by rationality means having doubts but always being safe in the knowledge that whatever you did, it was for the right reasons, and you can explain those reasons when challenged.
I'll stop for breath now.....

 

[Sab]

I’m sorry that didn’t go too well and that he decided he preferred not going on a second date. Dating is so stressful. I empathize with you not getting an answer to his text asking if he wanted to meet again. I have a hard time understanding when people don’t answer clear questions and it can really make me feel insecure. I think it’s super valid to need reassurance (and super understandable if you’ve had bad experiences in the past), but I think maybe that’s something people usually get more comfortable asking for and giving after knowing each other better. He probably needed space if he was dealing with a lot of things. I know I have a hard time when it’s not clearly mentioned <I think I need a bit of space right now and will write back when I’m more available> kind of thing. Maybe he had a hard time knowing at that point if he wasn’t to see you again because he was overwhelmed by the family stuff and needed time to think. Anyway, I think he was pretty clear about not wanting to go on a second date. It’s hard to meet people that have similar communication styles and that understand the need for reassurance. I hope you have better experiences with dating in the future! Take care!

 

[Onna]

An Aspie who likes to feel they are in control and who gets frustrated at the apparent irrational decisions and behaviour of the people they interact with???
Good heavens to Betsy! Have you ever heard of such a thing?!?!?!

AWOOGA
AWOOGA
ESSAY ALERT!
THERE'S AN ESSAY COMING!
AWOOGA


Onna - you are not a control freak any more than any of us is, but I think what people have been saying, quite rightly too, is that it's easy for our behaviour to be perceived this way by others.
All you have done is try to relieve your uncertainty and anxiety over an unexplained apparent lack of interest from another party. Any one of us could and would have done similar. Even if we didn't ACT on the impulse to contact the guy, we would likely have thought about it and wanted to.
His misinterpretation of your interest and desire to control your own uncertainty is a risk we always take and one of which can have very little control of the outcome. In essence - if he thinks you are a pushy cow then that's on him - his take on things. You know your intentions were far from pushy and motivated by vulnerability, not a desire to be possessive.
This is kind of what I was saying above which you asked for an example of. The opinion one has about the actions of another can be either emotionally driven or rationally driven. In most people there is a balance between the two although biased in one direction. It is not unusual for someone on the spectrum to be biased towards rationality as it is not uncommon for NT people to take the emotional route. Neither is a given rule and the approach will not only vary by person but by the nature of the situation in question and the personal history of the person making judgement.
Part of the function of natural "Theory of Mind" (ToM) and "Cognitive Empathy" is to make unconscious judgements of the intentions and future behaviour of others based on learned experience. It amounts to snap judgements - decisions made in an instant that govern our reactions and it is human nature to rely on and abide by those decisions. It is a contiguous property of ToM to also believe that your interpretation of another person's motivation is correct and would be shared by others.
An Aspie who may have a less effective facility for ToM will either make emotional decisions which appear flawed and sometimes childish to others (lashing out, refusing to take advice they asked for, never admitting to being wrong etc.), or is fully aware of their lacking in this department and makes up for it in conscious evaluation. It is the latter type which I believe you, me and a significant number of people in this community who have expressed their own inability to let things go, their constant reevaluation of past events, their confusion at the irrationality of others and many other problems, are a part of.
The common perception of autistic people is that our lesser degree of ToM is the former type - that we make immature, poorly informed decisions. The truth seems to be that whilst some of us do, others are making very carefully considered (and slower) decisions based upon deep thought and calculation that may be far more balanced and rational than the "usually right" gut instinct decisions made by our NT peers.
In your situation, a person with a fully functional ToM may have just thought;
"Bugger it - he's clearly not interested" and moved on. They would not have spent days poring over it, thought of all the possibilities, doubted themselves and then come on a public forum like this and discussed it at depth. They wouldn't need to. ToM makes the decision for them, they know they are right and they would tell their friends of their decision in the full belief that those friends would agree with their take on events.
As I said in the ToM video a couple of months back, an Aspie who doubts their judgement due to a lesser ToM and tries to compensate through systematizing situations, has a kind of emotional "pause button" that causes them to stop and rethink before reacting. It's slow and infuriating to some NTs but it helps us make better decisions.
If you have perfectly functional ToM you may make some poor decisions, but you are unlikely to blame yourself and can "breeze through life" happy in the knowledge that whatever you do, it's what "everyone would have done". Having a poor ToM backed up by rationality means having doubts but always being safe in the knowledge that whatever you did, it was for the right reasons, and you can explain those reasons when challenged.
I'll stop for breath now.....

I love you!

Thank you! I’ll likely read this a few times to fully grasp it. And I’ll search for your video on ToM and do some studying myself.

 

[Autistamatic]

I love you!

Thank you! I’ll likely read this a few times to fully grasp it. And I’ll search for your video on ToM and do some studying myself.

You're welcome

If you want to read up on the topic I'd suggest googling/wiki-ing
Theory of Mind
Theory Theory (not a wind up )
Empathising-Systemising Theory

The channel's linked in my signature so you can get to the videos easily through that

 

[Onna]

You're welcome

If you want to read up on the topic I'd suggest googling/wiki-ing
Theory of Mind
Theory Theory (not a wind up )
Empathising-Systemising Theory

The channel's linked in my signature so you can get to the videos easily through that

Thanks I will look them up.
‘Theory Theory’ is that the Theory of theories then?
If so it makes sense earlier when you said it can ‘mess with yer mind’!!

 

[Autistamatic]

‘Theory Theory’ is that the Theory of theories then?

Kind of....
It's a theory of how we internally construct Theory of Mind as we grow up. So it's a theory about a theory

 

[Fino]

My opinion is that four days is too long, he was already planning on not seeing you and possibly hoping you just stopped talking to him, and it's not your fault, but even if none of that is true and you scared him off then good riddance! Four days is too long!

I wouldn't be able to date someone who takes four hours!

Mostly kidding. But I'm needy so I don't know if anyone should be taking advice of mine on relationships. I'm pretty sure it's a misdemeanor for people with BPD to give relationship advice.

 

[Onna]

My opinion is that four days is too long, he was already planning on not seeing you and possibly hoping you just stopped talking to him, and it's not your fault, but even if none of that is true and you scared him off then good riddance! Four days is too long!

I wouldn't be able to date someone who takes four hours!

Mostly kidding. But I'm needy so I don't know if anyone should be taking advice of mine on relationships. I'm pretty sure it's a misdemeanor for people with BPD to give relationship advice.

Do you have autism as well as BPD?

 

[Moomin]

Bless you Moomin, that’s very kind.

It’s part of the self esteem I was talking about. I need to find a good balance between self esteem and taking responsibility.

I think ultimately I shouldn’t blame myself for acting on my emotions, but if I want to change the outcome next time around then, I’ll need to take responsibility for the consequences of my actions.
Human behaviour is so complex!
I think it’s a special interest for me, which can be quite useful because my special interest can have real positive results. But it can also be draining and emotional.

I can relate. During my undergrad I started to date people. It’s funny, because I didn’t really have friends at that time but I seemed to go on dates...I had a few that just flatlined out after the first date, and I know that in some way that was my fault because I was oblivious and didn’t realize that it was a date. In my last year I ended up in an abusive relationship. Thankful that it was short term, and I should have realized sooner that I was being used and walked but I didn’t. My esteem was quite bad, still is but that’s a different issue...but I should have taken the responsibility and not have allowed it to get to that point.

Chalk it up as a learning experience. No shame in doing that. I’d have behaved the same way as you (and have done previously) . Dating is complex, draining and at times confusing but it can still work out when you strike gold.

For the time being, do something that you love doing. And get back out there in your time.