Autism and compassion

[epath13]

What do you think the difference between how people on the spectrum experience compassion and how people who are not on the spectrum experience it. (Towards other people only, not animals). Do you feel compassion for other people?

 

[King_Oni]

I think the big difference is that people on the spectrum tend to look at it from a rational point of view instead of an emotional one. I always compare it to laws and everything, in where I just go through rules and regulations rather than an "I just feels wrong" kind of deal.

I don't see myself as a saviour to help others in that regard. I might chip in personal experiences, but that's pretty much as far as I go. I hardly call that an inate desire to help out others.

For me personally... I'm probably a really bureaucratic person that relies on rules and application way more than one should. It doesn't mean that whenever I (or someone) feel bad, or is treated bad, that I don't care, but I'm more likely to look up definition, code of conduct, rules and regulations and apply those if possible to see how this situation is the way it is. There's most likely little personal (and emotional) involvement from my part.

Because of that, I also think that if we're looking at atypical vs. neurotypical behaviour, I feel that neurotypical behaviour is sometimes based a lot on "assumptions" (all too often, I've encountered people that gave me crap for not being as emotionally involved, because that apparently is normal and what everyone should be like), whereas atypical behaviour might be more of a "I just don't know any better" (and I'm willing to refer to something like the lack of recognizing emotions and facial expressions for example).

 

[Aalo]

I feel so much compassion, but because it's on "what can I do to improve things leading to this" and not "oh no, oh well" level, I feel NT's often think me as cold and uncompassionate. It's true that I don't much cafe for starving children, because I know there's not much I can do for them.

But it seems that being in a spectrum doesn't mean one'd be totally incapable of being a good listener for important person, or as I've heard, I am someone to turn to when in a need of understanding and getting advice on moving on with the problem. It has been good to notice that I'm not always pointing out my skills of reasoning on everything yet I'm not able to be the best guide during the mourning. Maybe that is mostly because people seem to have such irrational thoughts during those times, that I can't comprehend.

 

[Dragon's Tooth]

I think king oni has it right that we see things more rationally. And that doesn't mean we aren't compassionate. It just means we can make a judgement call without emotion.

This can be of benefit. Like just before typing this post my sister had posted on facebook about saving a baby rat from her cat. I feel compassion for her in trying to save the baby rat but I can look at the situation rationally and say "well the rat will probably die a very slow death from shock and or the injuries it has gotten from the cat so its probably best that the cat keeps the rat" as well as you know wanting your cat to actually keep the numbers of rats and mice down. I used to try and save the mice my cats caught but then I realized quickly that I would have 100 mice living in my house in cages because I couldn't let them go back into the environment and I didn't really want to keep them as pets. So I had to tell my sister the truth but she will think with her heart in this situation.

I volunteer for an animal rescue. I do so because my passion is to help those who do not have a voice. I can't help animals in other countries but I can help those in my own backyard (I'm always wary of donating to international charities because I'm never sure my money isn't just going to line someone's pocket). But with the recent turmoil I have been through with me and some other volunteers changing who we volunteer with (not the cause just a change in organization) I have found that I am the clear logical voice in the mix and that the others have been a lot more emotional about the subject. I'm like the voice of reason. Does that mean I don't care? Not in the slightest. But being the voice of reason can help rein in those who are prone to thinking with their hearts before their heads.

I imagine we would come across in some situations as being very cold and rational. But I don't think that it means we lack compassion. I think it just means we let our heads rule our thinking rather than our hearts. And I think that is the best way to be because if you let your heart rule your judgement gets clouded and you make unwise decisions.

 

[epath13]

I think the big difference is that people on the spectrum tend to look at it from a rational point of view instead of an emotional one.

I agree that it's true for some but still, it seems to me that a lot of people on the spectrum are emotionally driven, even though those emotions seem to be directed inwards not outwards, if it makes sense to you guys. As for assumptions, I think the only people who don't base their decisions on assumptions are those who always check the facts 1st. And again, it seems to me that there're many people - whether they are on the spectrum or not - base their decisions on assumptions. Those assumptions might come from different place, have different backgrounds but still they are what they are.

I feel so much compassion, but because it's on "what can I do to improve things leading to this"

sounds familiar. I've always wondered what I can do, and if I can't do anything, what's the point.

This can be of benefit. Like just before typing this post my sister had posted on facebook about saving a baby rat from her cat. I feel compassion for her in trying to save the baby rat but I can look at the situation rationally and say "well the rat will probably die a very slow death from shock and or the injuries it has gotten from the cat so its probably best that the cat keeps the rat" as well as you know wanting your cat to actually keep the numbers of rats and mice down. I used to try and save the mice my cats caught but then I realized quickly that I would have 100 mice living in my house in cages because I couldn't let them go back into the environment and I didn't really want to keep them as pets. So I had to tell my sister the truth but she will think with her heart in this situation.

I know a lot of people on the spectrum seem to connect to animals and possibly feel more compassionate towards animals than people. But to me this is really weird 1st of all rats and mice can carry diseases, I would more worry about the pet getting some disease Strangely enough, I used to catch mice and release them (they seemed to me like the kind of mice that are supposed to leave in fields) but when we moved to our own house, somehow mice, that visited us were much quicker. So I said: "I'm sorry, but this is not your house, and if you don't get out I would have to kill you" So I just have poison lying in the basement, a couple of them dared to cross, but it seems they've been driven away. I hope it will stay this way.

There was some research done about people on the spectrum donating money to charities. Did somebody post it here or did I hear about it on a radio?... don't remember. They found out that people on the spectrum donated less money my 1st thought was: well maybe because those people had less money in the 1st place, considering the unemployment rates

Beside us being more rational than others, do you think we don't develop compassion in the same way because we tend to be more isolated and misunderstood? I don't mean actually isolated, I'm talking about a feeling of being separate.

I remember, compassion or any other feelings didn't come to me naturally, I learned how to feel, in a way. Or should I say: I found feelings, as if I kept pushing buttons until I got the right ones

I do want to help people but it seems to me, sometimes when you help others you have to be able to connect to their emotions... not sure how else to describe it. And even if I can feel their pain, I would expect them to focus on solutions, but that's not what many of them want. They want the connection, that I'm apparently not capable of establishing during communication. But somehow I was able to do it through my art, its like the connection was established on a different wave length and some people tuned in.

I think the way people on Autism spectrum think and feel can be so beneficial, so refreshing. It's almost seems like we are the key to something, a key to a bigger change.

Funny Just as I was typing the last sentence my cat, Luke, pushed a globe off a shelf

 

[rhubarbo]

I think the big difference is that people on the spectrum tend to look at it from a rational point of view instead of an emotional one.

I (also) agree with King_Oni here - but one thing I wanted to clarify and see if others agree

I have read where an NT actually FEELS the emotions that others feel when they share an unfortunate (or great) event. As if the event happened to them personally. It was complete news to me when I read that NTs have this. I can say with certainty that in almost every case I do NOT actually feel the emotions that the other person is going through unless it's something that also effects me personally. Instead it's an actual cognitive thought process ("That's a terrible event. I don't want that to happen to anyone ever") as opposed to a spontaneous reflection.

Does anyone experience that?

 

[King_Oni]

unless it's something that also effects me personally.

What kind of event? Do you have an example? Is it where you're physically at some place and as such it effects you personally (like for instance; a funeral) or is it more a mental effect thing (like the death of a family member). Excuse me for the doom and gloom examples

 

[rhubarbo]

No problem with the doom and gloom. Generally that's the kind of event that most gets brought up.

To clarify the "effects me personally". What I mean is that the event is somehow related personally like if MY dog or parents died - or if the place where I shop daily was knocked off. I feel those emotions - albeit they emerge often strangely. But if someone else's dog or parents died it would not effect me in the same way. Don't get me wrong - my heart certainly goes out to those people and I genuinely wish those things did not happen to them. However the way I understand the NT experience is that they actually feel the emotions of the person telling them about the death of a their pet/parent/etc and I don't feel it like that.

And it's the same with the positive news. AS I understand it, when an NT hears a friend share great news, they also feel the gamut of emotions that the teller has. I don't tend to have that either - unless that news is for me. And again - I am happy for them and wish them the best but my experience is more of a heady event and my response is a cognitive one.

 

[epath13]

No problem with the doom and gloom. Generally that's the kind of event that most gets brought up.

To clarify the "effects me personally". What I mean is that the event is somehow related personally like if MY dog or parents died - or if the place where I shop daily was knocked off. I feel those emotions - albeit they emerge often strangely. But if someone else's dog or parents died it would not effect me in the same way. Don't get me wrong - my heart certainly goes out to those people and I genuinely wish those things did not happen to them. However the way I understand the NT experience is that they actually feel the emotions of the person telling them about the death of a their pet/parent/etc and I don't feel it like that.

And it's the same with the positive news. AS I understand it, when an NT hears a friend share great news, they also feel the gamut of emotions that the teller has. I don't tend to have that either - unless that news is for me. And again - I am happy for them and wish them the best but my experience is more of a heady event and my response is a cognitive one.

I would say, I feel something, like... if you took all the negative emotions and transformed them into one. That's why I say I feel other people's pain, and its very unpleasant, I feel in in my heart and solar plexus area (mostly heart) and sometimes it makes me feel nauseous. Usually I feel it when people experience hatred, anger or refuse to accept some negative event. I don't think I feel it when a person's just sad but accepting. Other people's sadness sometimes is very confusing to me. But if I think about it, logically, non-emotionally, I should be able to understand it.

And another thing, if I haven't experienced something myself, it's often hard for me to relate. So I do understand what you're saying about sharing emotions. I think that's what I was trying to say here:

They want the connection, that I'm apparently not capable of establishing during communication.

 

[rhubarbo]

I would say, I feel something, like... if you took all the negative emotions and transformed them into one. That's why I say I feel other people's pain, and its very unpleasant, I feel in in my heart and solar plexus area (mostly heart) and sometimes it makes me feel nauseous.

I feel this too at times and I could not explain why it's only at times.

- and, No, the nausea is not just from being a fellow citizen of Illinois either .

 

[epath13]

oh, yeah, I see, now: Illinois

- and, No, the nausea is not just from being a fellow citizen of Illinois either .

that's hilarious

 

[Aalo]

What I mean is that the event is somehow related personally like if MY dog or parents died - or if the place where I shop daily was knocked off.

To me that sounds mental. And I don't mean that as an insult, it just feels impossible. One can never know all those feelings other one is getting through or even would be able to shut off all own feelings, so that empathy would never really be even close alike how that original sufferer will feel it. Trying to empathize might make them feel better though, it's not like they'd know the difference of other's feelings. It's good to feel one's not alone in sad situations.

But I have to say that I haven't get better that I already was, on understanding other's lost even after my dog and parent died. Own feelings can be so overwhelming, that later on it's hard to remember and act according to it.

 

[rhubarbo]

Earlier in the thread I wrote: "I have read where an Neurotypical actually FEELS the emotions that others feel when they share an unfortunate (or great) event. As if the event happened to them personally"

I guess I should have rephrased my statement on feeling empathy on things that effect me personally. Because, technically, it's not the person communicating those emotional states to me, and me empathizing, but it's my own self coming to the realization of the event - and it's slurry of emotions coming from that. It's not technically empathy. Sorry for the confusion there. Does that make more sense?

 

[Aalo]

Apparently I really haven't felt that way if it feels this unfamiliar. Mostly I was wondering what might that kind of reaction be for. If it's due that other person feeling more participating to the situation it still won't exactly give any essential help for that one in trouble. But probably during earlier ages people needed that kind of communal feeling of belonging to one. I've been thinking if it might be of any harm as also others that as people have been feeling more cold and distant towards others. I did lately read studies about that.

This could bring up interesting difference between NTs that don't care anymore while having a capacity for that, and aspies, who couldn't even with best intention and will of try.

 

[Dragon's Tooth]

I know a lot of people on the spectrum seem to connect to animals and possibly feel more compassionate towards animals than people. But to me this is really weird 1st of all rats and mice can carry diseases, I would more worry about the pet getting some disease Strangely enough, I used to catch mice and release them (they seemed to me like the kind of mice that are supposed to leave in fields) but when we moved to our own house, somehow mice, that visited us were much quicker. So I said: "I'm sorry, but this is not your house, and if you don't get out I would have to kill you" So I just have poison lying in the basement, a couple of them dared to cross, but it seems they've been driven away. I hope it will stay this way.

There was some research done about people on the spectrum donating money to charities. Did somebody post it here or did I hear about it on a radio?... don't remember. They found out that people on the spectrum donated less money my 1st thought was: well maybe because those people had less money in the 1st place, considering the unemployment rates

Beside us being more rational than others, do you think we don't develop compassion in the same way because we tend to be more isolated and misunderstood? I don't mean actually isolated, I'm talking about a feeling of being separate.

I remember, compassion or any other feelings didn't come to me naturally, I learned how to feel, in a way. Or should I say: I found feelings, as if I kept pushing buttons until I got the right ones

I do want to help people but it seems to me, sometimes when you help others you have to be able to connect to their emotions... not sure how else to describe it. And even if I can feel their pain, I would expect them to focus on solutions, but that's not what many of them want. They want the connection, that I'm apparently not capable of establishing during communication. But somehow I was able to do it through my art, its like the connection was established on a different wave length and some people tuned in.

I think the way people on Autism spectrum think and feel can be so beneficial, so refreshing. It's almost seems like we are the key to something, a key to a bigger change.

Its not that I'm not an animal person ... I'm a bit like my mum an animal hoarder. I even volunteer with an animal rescue group. My animals get the best of everything. I just spent $70 on a fancy leg brace for my dog who tore a ligament. A $5 bandage from the supermarket would probably do the same thing but this brace should hopefully heal her up faster. Our ute is full of dog toys so that when they go out they have something to play with. My animals only get the best food (which is not cheap). I even have a box on my sewing desk specifically for my cat to sleep in so she won't sleep on what I'm working on.

However with rats and mice (bare in mind I used to breed pet rats. I spent years doing it) the wild ones are better off dead. Less of them to breed, harm native wild life and they can carry diseases like the plague. There is actually no reliable cure for the plague. If you get the plague you will probably die a horrible slow death as it takes around a week or so for you to die. The only reason it isn't an issue is because we have cleaned up our acts and rats and mice don't infest our cities like they used too. If you look into history you'll find that the waves of the plague actually coincide with the witch hunts. Why? Because cats were thought to be a witch's devil spawn familiar or what ever so people would go round killing cats, the rat and mouse population would grow so people would get sick and die which meant the cats could repopulate then the stupid humans would kill the cats ...

As someone who cares about the environment I can argue for why you should kill any rat or mouse found. Hence why I let my cats do their job. And also the whole circle of life thing. Its not pleasent to watch a cat kill something. They are cruel little buggers. But I would rather my cats kill stuff than not. Especially things like large spiders and cockroaches.

I don't think giving to charity is about income, epath. I are reluctant to give to charity unless I know its going to the right place. Like I give a lot to the animal rescue I'm involved with because I know exactly where all the funds and so on are going. But I'm not so keen on things like international charities where people are paid large incomes to manage these charities. Maybe if they took a more reasonable pay they might get more done. Or the ones that spam you on TV ads. TV advertising is very expensive. So if I donate my $30 a month or what have you how much is going to getting the next sucker to spend $30? Also how many of these charities are teaching people to care for themselves? Its been well documented that in a number of places around the world there are communities of people who just stick their hands out and can't be bothered getting off their behinds to work. I've heard story after story of people going to teach poor communities about farming or how to build houses or what have you only to come back a year later to find everything as it was before they originally got there because they have killed all the dairy cows for food or couldn't be bothered plants crops or sold all the construction supplies they were given. So if I give charity I just want to know that the hard earned money I'm parting with is actually going to do some good in the world.

 

[epath13]

As someone who cares about the environment I can argue for why you should kill any rat or mouse found. Hence why I let my cats do their job. And also the whole circle of life thing. Its not pleasent to watch a cat kill something. They are cruel little buggers. But I would rather my cats kill stuff than not. Especially things like large spiders and cockroaches

That's true, I do think though wild mice and rats don't belong in the house so, to me, if one method doesn't work: use another one as for cats catching mice and rats, if it's a semi-outdoor cat than there's always a risk for him to get some sort of a sickness, but for an inside cat it's an unnecessary risk, I think

As for the charity: I can agree with that. Income was the 1st thing that came to my mind. But, I think I look at charities the same way you do.

 

[rhubarbo]

Just a little more on the subject.

I recently read this definition of Empathy in a Mirriam-Webster dictionary:

": the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner;"

The idea that people non-verbally actually experience "feelings, thoughts" just floors me.

 

[Ylva]

As someone who like stability and reliability, I prefer logical thought to just about any emotion. I feel bad for people, again, more as a result of conditioning than anything else. It is a ridiculous habit that I'm trying to get rid of. There is absolutely no point in feeling sorry for people, they are entirely capable of doing that themselves. If it is understanding they are after - and it often seems to be, though not always - then I'll do that rationally as well. I am not convinced their feelings are reasonable just because they feel very strongly that they are.

 

[epath13]

I have another questions:
When you see someone cry, do you feel like crying?
When you see someone being hurt, what do you feel?

And to Ylva:
You say that there's no point to feel sorry for people. Do you think you would want people to give you attention when you're in trouble, pain of some sort? Not necessarily feeling sorry for you, but... maybe comfort you or something.

The same question goes for anyone else who reads this.

 

[Ylva]

And to Ylva:
You say that there's no point to feel sorry for people. Do you think you would want people to give you attention when you're in trouble, pain of some sort? Not necessarily feeling sorry for you, but... maybe comfort you or something.

"Sorry for" is so condescending. It is demeaning to the person who receives it, it is as though saying that just because one cries that means they can't handle their own problems or won't even try.

My answer is: it depends on the comfort. I'm not crazy about it, in fact, since it usually involves a lot of touching at times when I have enough with my own sensations, and babying voices offering inane statements, and I just… no, thank you.

Mind you, I am not saying "hate one people who feel sorry for themselves", I'm just saying I won't reinforce their feelings of self-pity by feeling it with them. I am not saying "give them a pep-talk" or "tell them to brush it off and get back in the saddle". What I do is leave people alone, because that is what I would want them to do to me. And if I tried comforting them I am practically guaranteed to say something truthful and have them get angry with me because of it instead, so there is no point.

My sister knows I am less than tactful, so she confides in other people. It is a logical solution and it saves us both from much awkwardness.