Are You Concerned Over cheap Labour?

[total-recoil]

For some time I've been aware of something the Political Party in my country has been up to and have become quite well informed of the current situation. When the Conservative party got into office they initiated a workfare program that basically forces the unemployed to work for benefits. I don't exactly have a problem with that if any work undertaken is paid by the hour at the minimum wage level but where I differ enormously is over the idea of people working over 30 hours a week for peanuts. Having investigated the whole business in detail I concluded this program isn't about helping the unemployed to gain skills and find a way into work but merely the exploitation of a cheap source of labour that bypasses the minimum wage.
As it stands the situation is that those who refuse to supply their labour for practically nothing to a large corporation can have all unemployment support stopped. That is, they wind up with no income at all.
Really, I don't know how the situation is in Europe. I do know this workfare plan (from the verb "Facere"= to force, compel) originated in the U.S.A. by the Republican Party many years ago and has been advocated in Europe. The problem is, as I say, it provides large corporations with a ready supply of cheap labour and destroys real jobs. Why pay minimum wage if you can hire people for free?
More worrying still, is the European Charter Of Social Justice does prohibit forced labour but so far it's taking ages for any intervention to take place. I'm aware when the charter was documented they did have in mind the sort of forced labour that took place in Germany in the forties but, even so, if an individual is forced to work well below minimum wage under threat of destitution, this surely cannot be tolerated by any European Constitution.
As things stand, one legal expert called Tessa Gregory is representing several people and taking the case step by step to the European Courts. The cases have been dragging on for several months and ultimately may go to the European legislative process. At any rate, according to what I read in the Social Charter people do have the right to choose what kind of job they want to do and I find it hard to believe the minimum wage can simply be bypassed in this way.
Anyone aware of this and is it the same in your country?

 

[King_Oni]

It's becoming like this over here as well.

And it's already costing actual jobs.

While it might sound a bit tinfoil hat it's a lot looking that they're getting rid of people in specific fields, wait until they end up on unemployment benefits and then "rehire" then. That's how they want to secure cheap labor for schooled people even. So you might just as well go work for peanuts if you have an actual degree in say, a retirement home.

The downside of this all is; it's not only the educated that will be forced to do this. There's uneducated, and most likely, unfit for the job market type of people that they force into this. Not to long ago, on this forum, I blogged about a postman in my area who burned mail because said person wasn't interested in this job. Yes, that's a slightly over the top reaction. But I've come to believe that this is one among those that are being forced.

And a few months ago, when it was said that this entire rule of "free labor" was taken in action I read a report stating that it's in fact against anti-slavery laws based on some rulings in the European union. Or however you want to describe it, heh. Fact is; people on unemployment benefits, while they should work and get out of their predicament, should not be paid less than hourly wage or even have to "fight" to retain their right this way.

But yes, it's becoming a way to exploit cheap labor.

I always like to see it as this; If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

It's just that they want to enforce it so bad, that even if you're one of those "monkeys" (as in; unqualified for job), they can revoke your rights to unemployment benefits as well, stating that you're not doing a good job and thus took part in yourself getting fired.

Yes, it's a really slippery slope that's turning ugly beyond imagination like this.

If we want this, just get back to some kind of slavery system... oh wait, that's not legal. Then let's find ways to make it legal and just name it something that's not slavery. That's how corporate gets away with it.

 

[total-recoil]

This is what intrigues me. I have read the European Social Charter carefully and forced labour is prohibited. I'm aware the normal definition of forced labour would be like chain gangs and so forth but the actual term "workfare" means "force to work". The Latin verb is facio facere so I assume the "fare" is a derivative. My belief is any European citizen who is co-erced into working without protection of a minimum wage is being exploited (or certainly open to exploitation). I don't have such an issue if it's voluntary but the fact is it isn't voluntary. The reality in my country at present is even a highly qualified individual who hasn't found employment can be given an ultimatum: Either work 30 plus hours a week for 2 dollars an hour or face complete loss of State assistance. In fact, I know of a case of a qualified mechanic who was given this ultimatum to polish furniture and he refused. This case is now still going through the judicial system and may reach the European Court later on.
The funny thing is more has been accomplished so far by boycotting companies that exploit the unemployed and street protests than in legal challenges. Yet surely there should be no need to stage street protests. Everyone is entitled to a minimum wage. In the past, people were taken on as apprentices to learn a skill but they were still paid a living wage.
Anyway, I'm not quite sure to what degree this has spread into the E.U. I know it is taking place in the U.K. and Netherlands but can't see the French and Germans willing to accept workfare. Time will tell. I just think it should be made illegal throughout the E.U.and instead invest in skills and education.

It's becoming like this over here as well.

And it's already costing actual jobs.

While it might sound a bit tinfoil hat it's a lot looking that they're getting rid of people in specific fields, wait until they end up on unemployment benefits and then "rehire" then. That's how they want to secure cheap labor for schooled people even. So you might just as well go work for peanuts if you have an actual degree in say, a retirement home.

The downside of this all is; it's not only the educated that will be forced to do this. There's uneducated, and most likely, unfit for the job market type of people that they force into this. Not to long ago, on this forum, I blogged about a postman in my area who burned mail because said person wasn't interested in this job. Yes, that's a slightly over the top reaction. But I've come to believe that this is one among those that are being forced.

And a few months ago, when it was said that this entire rule of "free labor" was taken in action I read a report stating that it's in fact against anti-slavery laws based on some rulings in the European union. Or however you want to describe it, heh. Fact is; people on unemployment benefits, while they should work and get out of their predicament, should not be paid less than hourly wage or even have to "fight" to retain their right this way.

But yes, it's becoming a way to exploit cheap labor.

I always like to see it as this; If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

It's just that they want to enforce it so bad, that even if you're one of those "monkeys" (as in; unqualified for job), they can revoke your rights to unemployment benefits as well, stating that you're not doing a good job and thus took part in yourself getting fired.

Yes, it's a really slippery slope that's turning ugly beyond imagination like this.

If we want this, just get back to some kind of slavery system... oh wait, that's not legal. Then let's find ways to make it legal and just name it something that's not slavery. That's how corporate gets away with it.

 

[Geordie]

I told the disability rights group in my country about this issue. I can't bring myself to say this is slavery. I was told, though, by these people, this is the best employers could do, giving us low wages so we could 'take less pressure' and 'handle less responsibilities'. But let us be honest, the alternative to low-wage employment is unemployment, and there is little social support in my part of the world.

 

[total-recoil]

I don't mind working for low wages at a time of economic recession and I don't object to getting my hands dirty. I have been known to work on diesel engines or paint and scrape hulls on boats. Where I do draw the line is over politiicians exploiting a source of cheap labour for the benefit of rich corporations that can afford to pay a minimum wage. And I strongly oppose the use of scaremongering by political parties to force the young unemployed to work without normal, regulated payment (pretending it's all about work experience). The fact is the millions of young Europeans who cannot find work aren't to blame. They have no control over global economics. What they require is skills training and education and I still fail to see how politicians can claim they are doing this by forced labour. Unfortunately I don't yet quite understand what is taking place exactly in central Europe, only what is happening over here. I think in Europe they call it "activization" but suspect it's not as punitive or extreme as the stories I've heard about here. I've been following the whole thing quite closely for some time now and actually a lot of what has been debated behind the scenes hasn't been covered or reported by the mainstream media.

I told the disability rights group in my country about this issue. I can't bring myself to say this is slavery. I was told, though, by these people, this is the best employers could do, giving us low wages so we could 'take less pressure' and 'handle less responsibilities'. But let us be honest, the alternative to low-wage employment is unemployment, and there is little social support in my part of the world.

 

[Spinning Compass]

Funny, I've been having some discussions along this line with people at church. Where I go now is a predominantly liberal and well-off congregation. They are very much into social justice--let me say, they are very visible in social justice, having won awards for their social justice work, but I have to say, as a person struggling to make ends meet, they really don't have much of a clue about what it is really like to live in a situation where everything is a struggle. It's a lot easier and sexier to march down a street carrying signs than to deal with things poor folk deal with every day, from dealing with absentee, don't give a damn landlords, to being heard at the social services office, etc.

Case in point: "Why don't you get a job cleaning houses for extra pay," asked one such woman. "Or house-sitting?" Yes, and why don't I go pick blueberries (I understand they're paying $10 an hour, more than McDonald's), or detassle corn, or work at McDonald's or Wal-Mart? If I've been told that my talents are wasted in my current job, which involves computers and scientific/medical knowledge, then what do you call cleaning houses? I don't want to brag, but I have also been personally invited (not anonymously by mass mailing, but face-to-face by an individual I know) to join MENSA, and you know not just anyone gets invited to that organization. And you want me to clean houses? Let's get real, people! Talk about selling a person short! Furthermore, the jobs you suggest are all low-paying daytime jobs for the most part, how does that fit in with a 40-hour week schedule?

"I know," said another friend. "I've been told that sort of thing too. They seem to think that because we are struggling to make ends meet that we are willing to be slaves. I have a master's degree, for Christ's sake." So, ok, we move down the ladder and bump people out of jobs who don't have any skills or education to get any better jobs. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Jannah]

Cheap labour is nothing but exploitation and slavery. From my understanding, in America(I'm not American) there's many immigrants working below minimum wage. Firmly I'm disgusted by the fact they're taking advantage of immigrants just like western companies in third world countries take advantage of poverty to get people working in sweat shops. CEO's are a bunch of pigs and minimum wage laws exist for a reason.

 

[Nolan1971]

Let's not forget those of us who absolutely can not do over 40 hrs a week or even full time at all.
Couple that with all the difficulties our symptoms cause a lot of us can barely keep one job let alone do more.
Those who are well off can't relate because they have usually never had to struggle before or have forgotten.

 

[Jannah]

Let's not forget those of us who absolutely can not do over 40 hrs a week or even full time at all.
Couple that with all the difficulties our symptoms cause a lot of us can barely keep one job let alone do more.
Those who are well off can't relate because they have usually never had to struggle before or have forgotten.

I definitely know the feeling. I haven't worked in six years. Before then I have ever only had two jobs which both only lasted a few months. One of them I only got because my sister worked at the same place and essentially convinced them to hire me. Also, on another note, my mother had to raise three children on minimum wage. Often times she couldn't even get food on the table without doing uh...less than legal things on the side. So yea, I can say a lot of better off people really can't relate to my struggles. For that reason I think it's sick that many immigrants and poor people are being taken advantage of.

 

[King_Oni]

Anyway, I'm not quite sure to what degree this has spread into the E.U. I know it is taking place in the U.K. and Netherlands but can't see the French and Germans willing to accept workfare. Time will tell. I just think it should be made illegal throughout the E.U.and instead invest in skills and education.

Well.. speaking of Germany. You might want to read up about Hartz IV and how that's working out for both the government as well as how it's a bit of an issue for the general jobmarket and prospects for people in that situation.

Hartz concept - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[total-recoil]

The latest information I have is very welcome. The U.N. has decided to get involved over part of what I've considered to be flagrant human rights abuses in the socioeconomic context.
As I gather the U.N has sent an official to investigate housing funding cuts in the U.K. and the fact that thousands of disabled people could lose their homes. This has enraged the Right Wing Conservative Government over here who have now complained to the head of the U.N. although the U.N. officlal is quite professional and has only been doing her job. She is now making a report to the U.N. for next year where she will make the case the U.K. Government has violated human rights law with respect to provision of affordable housing. And these inspections have been carried out in other countries too so I don't see it as being biased in any way.
Of course, you could expect the current Right Wing party in this country to protest and wring their hands but it seems to me what has actually upset them is the U.N. appears to have latched onto the problem. There have been stories of suicides and homelessness and the U.N. officlal who visted major urban areas was said to be shocked. Her view which I endorse 100 per cent is society is going backwards.
I was thinking of writing myself, for that matter. It's not just the abuse of housing rights and displacement of the disabled but this whole workfare situation I highlighed in my first post. I fail to see how any of it can be legal. That is, I carefully read the E.U. social charter and still fail to see how rights to a living working wage and right to choose your own job or profession can be suddenly ignored by arrogant political party leaders.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all in favour of voluntary work and properly organised work experience but I oppose big, rich corporations having been allowed to hire people for free and the concept of a young person struggling to pay rent on a wage of 130 dollars a week for 30 hours labour.
Hard to believe it is happening really but I hope the U.N. does its job.

 

[King_Oni]

It's interesting how the UN is stepping in now since it might in some way be a violation of human rights.

Society is going backwards, I do agree with that. And with that one can consider; if companies should pay normal wages rather than this "exploitation", how long will that be sustainable? I'm not really sure if these below minimum wages are only a product of greedy corporations or that the bottom of the barrel is slowly being reached to make something a viable enterprise anymore, thus wages have to be lowered overal. It's probably just not equally distributed.

And since governments want everyone to be employed, healthy as well as disabled people, this poses a problem. Companies are cutting back jobs and hours to warrant their existence in the big picture. Then people end up on welfare, which doesn't sit well with the government. Welfare costs the government a decent penny as well and governments are cutting that back because too many end up unemployed... we call it crisis, to create the illusion that it's a temporary thing. The bottom of the barrel has long been reached.

Basically it comes down to the fact that we need to either have people work for free, or everyone just give up a bit of his income to keep it all around and evenly distributed. Yet, the other side of the coin also makes it so that below minimum wage is not a decent amount to actually live with and pay taxes, bills, feed your family, etc. People are forced to get a 2nd job, to make, what used to be, a decent wage for a single fulltime job based on 40 hours a week. And that's already happening here and there. The concept of working to enjoy life is becoming a weird notion. Being employed is becomes the means to survive, yet it's dependant on so many external factors. For what it's worth your supervisor can let you go because he doesn't like you for whatever reason. Right now there are laws regarding that, but more and more I see these laws disappearing since they stagnate growth and sustainability and governments waive these laws under some kind of "crisis management emergency law"... chances are plans for this are already laid out, since I don't buy into the fact that no one saw these economic matters rear their head decades ago.

Perhaps I just sound an awful lot like some tinfoil hat conspiracy guy now... or some "prophet of the endtimes"... but it's just on my mind a lot, how human rights are being violated and questioned on a daily basis, especially when it comes to employment and disability.

 

[Soup]

It's interesting how the UN is stepping in now since it might in some way be a violation of human rights.

Society is going backwards...

Perhaps I just sound an awful lot like some tinfoil hat conspiracy guy now...

@ King_Oni: Hand me that roll of tinfoil, please or just lemme borrow your hat for a sec. Socety has been going backwards, for the most part, since we descended from the trees & turned into these particularly ugly & awkward apes called humans. Now that we have this fancy prefrontal cortex, we are capable of much more complex thoughts: unfortunately, much of the time these are but elaborate stupidities! My province has one of those welfare work programmes. If someone is on welfare (BUT not on disability welfare) he or she must apply for the work programme. The person can list fields in which he would prefer to work & some effort is made to accommodate such requests (one cannot request .com billionaire, media mogul, supermodel, irritating pop star, hit man or pimp etc.)

The employer gains a 'financial incentive' for taking you aboard & allegedly training you. The candidate receives pay that is below minimum wage & can keep a certain amount over his welfare cheque. Sounds pretty good...right? WRONG! What happens is, welfare recipients are hired for the worst low-level jobs where there really is nothing to train them for. They are expected to work long hours for low pay & are often treated like $#!T by bosses who know the guy is trapped. These jobs are often situated in places far from where the person lives. Visible minorities have been especially wronged by unscrupulous employers here who are looking only to exploit them as cheap to free labour. The person is often expected to arrive at absurdly early times when, in many areas, public transportation has not begun to run. If you refuse such a job or try to quit or complain because an employer is unethical, the candidate is blamed & risks losing his welfare. There IS a conspiracy afoot here & it doesn't take a tinfoil hat to spot (although such essential head gear is advised).

They want to make anything besides being in a war-lord's torture chamber or dead, seem preferable to going onto welfare-as if that is something most people sit back & deliberately choose! It is a last resort many people have been forced into due to the fractured economy. It isn't for nothing that 'society' allows abject poverty to persist: it provides the military & business sectors with abundant cheap easily replaceable laborers to whom they have almost no commitment! It IS ersatz slavery modern capitalism style! The same people who get cauht up in this are the ones whose parents were poor, who went to the worst schools & had the least access to opportunities to better their lot in life. They do not slip though the cracks, so to speak: they get shoved though head on!

 

[total-recoil]

I read up on the source you forwarded me. I didn't know much about what was taking place in Germany with respect to jobseeker contracts. Neither am I sure if the program is as corrupt as it is over here. By that I mean. it would seem the so-called jobseeker agreement over in this country is very open to the interpretation of bureacrats and jobcentre workers so suspension of payments is random and frequently unjust. The political objective is to suspend as many people as possible so as to save money and the figures suggest the figures of suspensions run into thousands. In fact, there is pressure on jobcentre workers to suspend claimants or risk losing their own job. This also lowers officlal unemployment figures. And as I said before, people can have money suspended for refusing unpaid job placements. Things have gotten so bad there are food banks where people queue for food handouts.
I think at some point it will all result in social unrest. I discovered that in Switzerland, the army is now engaged in serious training as they fear that social unrest in Europe will spill into their own borders. There is some recognition that if unemployment weighs down so heavily that European social security funding can't cope or is cut dramatically, social unrest could spiral out of control. In Switzerland they believe the E.U. governments could be unable to cope if it did come to head. The question being asked is which country will be first. Many think possibly Spain where youth unemployment is massive and tensions rising.

It's interesting how the UN is stepping in now since it might in some way be a violation of human rights.

Society is going backwards, I do agree with that. And with that one can consider; if companies should pay normal wages rather than this "exploitation", how long will that be sustainable? I'm not really sure if these below minimum wages are only a product of greedy corporations or that the bottom of the barrel is slowly being reached to make something a viable enterprise anymore, thus wages have to be lowered overal. It's probably just not equally distributed.

And since governments want everyone to be employed, healthy as well as disabled people, this poses a problem. Companies are cutting back jobs and hours to warrant their existence in the big picture. Then people end up on welfare, which doesn't sit well with the government. Welfare costs the government a decent penny as well and governments are cutting that back because too many end up unemployed... we call it crisis, to create the illusion that it's a temporary thing. The bottom of the barrel has long been reached.

Basically it comes down to the fact that we need to either have people work for free, or everyone just give up a bit of his income to keep it all around and evenly distributed. Yet, the other side of the coin also makes it so that below minimum wage is not a decent amount to actually live with and pay taxes, bills, feed your family, etc. People are forced to get a 2nd job, to make, what used to be, a decent wage for a single fulltime job based on 40 hours a week. And that's already happening here and there. The concept of working to enjoy life is becoming a weird notion. Being employed is becomes the means to survive, yet it's dependant on so many external factors. For what it's worth your supervisor can let you go because he doesn't like you for whatever reason. Right now there are laws regarding that, but more and more I see these laws disappearing since they stagnate growth and sustainability and governments waive these laws under some kind of "crisis management emergency law"... chances are plans for this are already laid out, since I don't buy into the fact that no one saw these economic matters rear their head decades ago.

Perhaps I just sound an awful lot like some tinfoil hat conspiracy guy now... or some "prophet of the endtimes"... but it's just on my mind a lot, how human rights are being violated and questioned on a daily basis, especially when it comes to employment and disability.

 

[King_Oni]

I read up on the source you forwarded me. I didn't know much about what was taking place in Germany with respect to jobseeker contracts. Neither am I sure if the program is as corrupt as it is over here. By that I mean. it would seem the so-called jobseeker agreement over in this country is very open to the interpretation of bureacrats and jobcentre workers so suspension of payments is random and frequently unjust. The political objective is to suspend as many people as possible so as to save money and the figures suggest the figures of suspensions run into thousands. In fact, there is pressure on jobcentre workers to suspend claimants or risk losing their own job. This also lowers officlal unemployment figures. And as I said before, people can have money suspended for refusing unpaid job placements. Things have gotten so bad there are food banks where people queue for food handouts.

Sounds like the same store I've heard about from this video.

The system over here is a bit like this as well. If they can suspend you, they will. Luckily I've got enough legal documentation and social workers to prevent this from happening in general. And with my last psych evaluation there's not much open for interpretation in terms of job placement. So if anything, it's from my part where I provide them with clear guidelines to deal with. It takes away a lot of these vague terms of theirs.

This target oriented culture on workfloors is the stupidest thing ever. I've worked as a telemarketeer for a really short period (2 days, lol) and that's one of the prime environments where this goes on. And anything beyond that, especially when it comes to these games where peoples livelyhoods are at stake are a scary thought.

I think at some point it will all result in social unrest. I discovered that in Switzerland, the army is now engaged in serious training as they fear that social unrest in Europe will spill into their own borders. There is some recognition that if unemployment weighs down so heavily that European social security funding can't cope or is cut dramatically, social unrest could spiral out of control. In Switzerland they believe the E.U. governments could be unable to cope if it did come to head. The question being asked is which country will be first. Many think possibly Spain where youth unemployment is massive and tensions rising.

I guess it's fair for Switzerland to defend their own. Civil unrest should be a matter of the nation whose citizens cause it, not of countries next to it. It just happens that Switzerland is in the middle of all these countries.

Obviously it's no big secret that social security is weighing down more and more. Even in The netherlands we are looking at an 8% unemployment rate, and it's likely to jump up to 9 next year.

Of course it causes civil unrest, it's peoples livelyhood at stake. Though when I told a therapist that if my livelyhood was at stake (like, no income, etc.) I'd fine means to survive, even if it would result in the not so legal activities, that would be justifiable by me, since... well, "survival instinct". He looked at me as if I just said something crazy... but this is the exact same thing, just on a personal level, on what happens in these cases with severe cutbacks and civil unrest. People want to survive one way or another.

I do believe that countries are not capable of bringing down this civil unrest, unless they take drastic measures and just put the army out there as a form of "riot control" and eventually take out a majority of the people in this predicament. Overpopulation, human rights, automation are amongst the causes of this situation in my opinion. I would like to see more humane options though. I don't believe that turning it into a massacre would be the way to go, and perhaps it wont. There's plenty of human rights organisations that will raise a brow on that. And that's putting it lightly. But I can totally see how there will be some kind of "economic crisis control act" to contain this problem in ways that are barely legal, but legal nonetheless...

More humane options would be to create jobs to let people have jobs and opportunities... that seems like a no-brainer. But as with everything, it costs money. Most likely, it's cheaper to have them on welfare right now, than to erect new companies to provide new jobs. Especially in times where every service has a price tag and people are having a hard time to justify that price tag. This reminds of a quote I once read about automation and having robots do the jobs for us. It essentially comes down to "how do you make these robots buy your cars?". With more people with no jobs and little money there's no real demand for consumer goods. The rich already have everything, so they don't need it. The poor can't afford it. And effectively, these industries die out in the long run.

I do however have this distinct idea that we're running out of money for most options. And I've addressed this earlier in this thread. By now we want people to work for free (and probably if possible even, get paid to offer them a job).

And that's where civil unrest seems like the most viable thing to happen. If people were way more docile, they would die out. Most people aren't that docile and passive though. That's the problem with human nature I guess.

 

[total-recoil]

Yes, I know about the suspension targets and trickery in the job centres. Actually I have concluded by now the only real solution to this problem is for people to create an international solidarity network. Very hard to do, of course, but maybe possible. If the network was big enough and had funding from sympathisers, there could be a safety net created to rescue those who have had their rights violated by welfare removal (on false grounds). As well as mass lobbying within the E.U. to prohibit all of this on the basis of the European Social Charter which supposedly protects the right to a living wage and choice of career.
I recall very well once hearing Don King state that when you're on your own you can get trampled on, discriminated against and repressed. However, when you have an organization behind you, it's another matter. King made this statement in Zaire before the Ali Foreman fight and he was referring to black African Americans who were standing up for their civil/economic rights. He was right as well as the State had to let Ali go in the end despite his refusal to be inducted into the army.
What is happening now is the Government bureaucrats are targeting individuals who are pretty isolated, not so well informed of the scarce rights they have and probably intimidated. There is no organization. If there was an organization, all of that would change. I'm not talking about a violent organization either, simply a huge support group with some clout and even funding. Make no mistake, once these jobcentres lose their sting over the threat of suspension of money, they can't force anyone into unpaid labour and exploit them as cheap labour. It's a Right Wing politicians nightmare come true basically. However, in many ways, I lose patience with people over here in general who don't even try to get organised and fight back with a bit more backbone. They seemed to be able to do it in the sixties and there was never a more suitable time than today for people to group together and make sure their children don't grow up in a Dickensian society of workhouses and sweat shops.

Sounds like the same store I've heard about from this video.

The system over here is a bit like this as well. If they can suspend you, they will. Luckily I've got enough legal documentation and social workers to prevent this from happening in general. And with my last psych evaluation there's not much open for interpretation in terms of job placement. So if anything, it's from my part where I provide them with clear guidelines to deal with. It takes away a lot of these vague terms of theirs.

This target oriented culture on workfloors is the stupidest thing ever. I've worked as a telemarketeer for a really short period (2 days, lol) and that's one of the prime environments where this goes on. And anything beyond that, especially when it comes to these games where peoples livelyhoods are at stake are a scary thought.



I guess it's fair for Switzerland to defend their own. Civil unrest should be a matter of the nation whose citizens cause it, not of countries next to it. It just happens that Switzerland is in the middle of all these countries.

Obviously it's no big secret that social security is weighing down more and more. Even in The netherlands we are looking at an 8% unemployment rate, and it's likely to jump up to 9 next year.

Of course it causes civil unrest, it's peoples livelyhood at stake. Though when I told a therapist that if my livelyhood was at stake (like, no income, etc.) I'd fine means to survive, even if it would result in the not so legal activities, that would be justifiable by me, since... well, "survival instinct". He looked at me as if I just said something crazy... but this is the exact same thing, just on a personal level, on what happens in these cases with severe cutbacks and civil unrest. People want to survive one way or another.

I do believe that countries are not capable of bringing down this civil unrest, unless they take drastic measures and just put the army out there as a form of "riot control" and eventually take out a majority of the people in this predicament. Overpopulation, human rights, automation are amongst the causes of this situation in my opinion. I would like to see more humane options though. I don't believe that turning it into a massacre would be the way to go, and perhaps it wont. There's plenty of human rights organisations that will raise a brow on that. And that's putting it lightly. But I can totally see how there will be some kind of "economic crisis control act" to contain this problem in ways that are barely legal, but legal nonetheless...

More humane options would be to create jobs to let people have jobs and opportunities... that seems like a no-brainer. But as with everything, it costs money. Most likely, it's cheaper to have them on welfare right now, than to erect new companies to provide new jobs. Especially in times where every service has a price tag and people are having a hard time to justify that price tag. This reminds of a quote I once read about automation and having robots do the jobs for us. It essentially comes down to "how do you make these robots buy your cars?". With more people with no jobs and little money there's no real demand for consumer goods. The rich already have everything, so they don't need it. The poor can't afford it. And effectively, these industries die out in the long run.

I do however have this distinct idea that we're running out of money for most options. And I've addressed this earlier in this thread. By now we want people to work for free (and probably if possible even, get paid to offer them a job).

And that's where civil unrest seems like the most viable thing to happen. If people were way more docile, they would die out. Most people aren't that docile and passive though. That's the problem with human nature I guess.

 

[Tarragon]

I wish I could say that people should help themselves, and it's how you look at things etc,etc, but.....

We are in a terrible recession globally, and where are these jobs people are supposed to get? I chose to become self employed to try and earn money, and didn't do so because I was 'forced' to by any government agency. Of course, now I've voluntarily left the benefit system, I'm sure there's no going back. I've just received a letter asking me to prove my earnings, halfway through my first year. this means I have to prepare accounts, which costs money which I haven't got.


So, there's not much help from the system when I actually do try and get going.

So, yup, times are tough and as always it is the most vulnerable that suffer because they are caught up in things beyond their control.

I doubt I will ever be able to work for anyone else, so there's no going back for me now I've chosen my path. I could easily end up homeless if I don't earn enough, but I will not be going back to benefits. Ive had enough of the system for one lifetime.

 

[King_Oni]

We are in a terrible recession globally, and where are these jobs people are supposed to get? I chose to become self employed to try and earn money, and didn't do so because I was 'forced' to by any government agency. Of course, now I've voluntarily left the benefit system, I'm sure there's no going back. I've just received a letter asking me to prove my earnings, halfway through my first year. this means I have to prepare accounts, which costs money which I haven't got.

Well yes, it is in fact a problem that unemployment isn't only a matter of no vital education for said jobs. There are just no more jobs. I mean, over here, across the canal, we're dealing with 8% unemployment overal, which makes up between 600.000 and 700.000 people. Yet if you look at all the registered jobs to fill in, there's what... about 100.000. Even if people would have proper training, there's still half a million people without a job. And I'm well aware I'm amongst them, and surely not the only person who medically speaking (as in; I have it on file) is hard to get employed even without good guidance and counseling.

Yesterday I read a report on people on welfare and how the government is lacking to provide support to get these people employed. Over 70 percent gets little to no support to get back on track. There's no money for new courses to make them a more valueable asset, there's no time for actual coaching and support, and the training programs they're forced to partake in aren't even necessary and helpful. And the support they offer is by forcing people into cheap labor. Which eventually gets other people fired. I have no clue what the reasoning to this is... can just as well tell everyone to work 20 hours a week and compensate them with welfare checks instead. That way everyone works a bit... and makes people less stressed out.

It's funny how you mention "you weren't forced".. but as a technicality, unless you're infinitely wealthy, making a living is not a choice. You have some freedom in how to acquire it though. And by stating you're done with "the system" it doesn't leave much of a choice I guess. Even if you left voluntarily, I guess there's some reasoning to it. I couldn't imagine leaving voluntarily and have no positive outlook to actually make it work. I wish it does work out for you though.

I've been through the same idea of "starting my own business". And in a way I still have this idea. I just don't see it working out. My record of education and employment is tarnished... badly, I have little to no resources to hire someone to set up a business plan and this location isn't the best for any businesses I could care for.

So that would leave me to find a job first, hope it's a decent wage job, save up money and then start on my own... and getting a job is already a big issue. Especially considering I now have on paper that I'm liable for disability workplace assistance and that the general notion exists that I cannot function in regular employment. Did I need this documentation? Quite sure I do, since, if anything, I will not let people force me into labour that will most likely put me on a suspension program for doing a bad job (or worse). The fun thing about this document is that it pretty much says; needs to start on his own. But it dodges this verdict sneakily and put is as "solitairy job, no supervision, own goals" and keywords like that. If you add them up, there's no much left rather than setting up your own company. But I'm on a waiting list for that, and I'll see what that brings (and if these plans even stick around until I'm up for placement (which is roughly in 5 years)

 

[Judge]

It's a disturbing trend in most labor statistics here. The economic recovery is mired in a consistent increase in lower-paying, part-time jobs.

Makes one wonder if this is really a recovery at all. I know some economists argue that very point...

 

[total-recoil]

I'm of the same mind. Actually I'm preparing for any possible doomsday scenario so my particular interest in living-boats is possibly helpful. I spend quite a lot of time studying natural energy such as solar/wind power on boats as well as basic DIY (so I can do the basic stuff). In a really tight fix I figure I could still have a roof over my head because there is no way of knowing how things will wind up.
Anyway, to all of you who feel down-hearted and possibly even on the scrap heap, stay positive and do your best. Your best is all you can do when times are hard.
By the way, the situation with all this blame game at job centres and victimisation (instigated by politicians) is a serious issue. It amazes me they are trying to pull such a stunt. Job applicants are in a situation where they can be victimised and judged without having any evident citizen rights. No representation as such. Someone could simply dislike you and use their position to stop welfare money or abuse their position in many ways. I heard of one person who was five minutes late for an appointment due to a traffic accident and they stopped his money (simply to meet the routine sanction targets). I really still can't square that off with the supposed bill of European rights we're supposed to have. I'm aware the E.U. and The U.N. are gradually starting to take court action over these issues but the legal process to me seems ridiculously slow.
As for the politicians is this country frankly they're a disgrace. I think they are passing the buck trying to blame every one but themselves for the current mess.

I wish I could say that people should help themselves, and it's how you look at things etc,etc, but.....

We are in a terrible recession globally, and where are these jobs people are supposed to get? I chose to become self employed to try and earn money, and didn't do so because I was 'forced' to by any government agency. Of course, now I've voluntarily left the benefit system, I'm sure there's no going back. I've just received a letter asking me to prove my earnings, halfway through my first year. this means I have to prepare accounts, which costs money which I haven't got.


So, there's not much help from the system when I actually do try and get going.

So, yup, times are tough and as always it is the most vulnerable that suffer because they are caught up in things beyond their control.

I doubt I will ever be able to work for anyone else, so there's no going back for me now I've chosen my path. I could easily end up homeless if I don't earn enough, but I will not be going back to benefits. Ive had enough of the system for one lifetime.