the more convinced I am a woman is into me, the less likely I am to make a move

[FeatherBird]

I've made moves on total strangers with relative ease before (That being said, I stopped because it's a worthless endeavor. Virtually no woman is going to accept a total stranger's advances)

On the other hand, if I know a woman well, and the woman has dropped potential clues of being into me, I have a crippling phobia preventing me from making a move.

From a logical standpoint, I understand it would make more sense to be the other way around (being more likely to make moves on a woman you know who's dropped potential clues vs making a move on a total stranger).

For the longest time, I blamed my phobia of making a move on a woman I know (who's dropped potential clues) on 2 factors:

-The awkwardness of having to run into her after a possible rejection (at least if you get rejected by a total stranger, you're highly unlikely to run into her ever again)
-I'd feel like the world's biggest idiot for misreading her (what I thought were) clues

After giving it some thought, it's dawned on me that the core reason for my phobia goes deeper.

The core reason of why I'm terrified to make a move on a woman I know well (and who I suspect might be into me): I'm extremely self-conscious about my ASD.

I can explain. When I misread a woman's clues, I (in my head) blame my ASD. Every rejection by a woman I thought was into me is yet another reminder of my ASD (I speak from experience. Even though I currently refuse to act on potential clues, I've acted on potential clues in the past...and gotten rejected)

In addition to what I already said about being highly unlikely to run into a total stranger ever again, I also have no reason to feel like an idiot (and no reason to blame my ASD) if I get rejected by a total stranger. Because I never had any reason to suspect a total stranger is into me.

It's unfortunate that my strategy is perhaps the worst strategy ever for getting a woman. Surely there have been opportunities I've missed through the years.

 

[Tom]

I never took ASD into consideration as I did not know that was what it was. I did know I was different and had been told that enough times to know it was true, but all the same I was just me, as I was. You are looking for someone who likes you as you are, and the only way to do that is be yourself.

 

[Rodafina]

@FeatherBird
What does “make a move” actually mean to you? Sounds like you are doing something physical. Surprising someone with physical affection would likely get a different reaction than having a conversation about feelings.

I wonder if you might be more confident and successful with an autistic gal.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

From a logical standpoint, I understand it would make more sense to be the other way around (being more likely to make moves on a woman you know who's dropped potential clues vs making a move on a total stranger).

Maybe it's helpful to think of it as being affectionate with someone you know is interested in that, instead of with someone who hasn't expressed this desire. Why be affectionate with a complete stranger? You could get yourself into legal trouble, not to mention what they might feel. It might also be helpful to just ask if they want to kiss/hug/whatever, if you're not. No reasonable person will be upset if you respect their boundaries.

The awkwardness of having to run into her after a possible rejection (at least if you get rejected by a total stranger, you're highly unlikely to run into her ever again)
-I'd feel like the world's biggest idiot for misreading her (what I thought were) clues

Everyone gets rejected and misreads people. It can feel horrible, but it really isn't a big deal. Get to know someone well and build a real relationship, and those other experiences won't seem so important. They can help you make better connections in the future, too.

It's unfortunate that my strategy is perhaps the worst strategy ever for getting a woman.

It may also be helpful to not think of it as "getting a woman." Building a connection would probably get you something more meaningful.

 

[FeatherBird]

@FeatherBird
What does “make a move” actually mean to you? Sounds like you are doing something physical. Surprising someone with physical affection would likely get a different reaction than having a conversation about feelings.

I wonder if you might be more confident and successful with an autistic gal.

No, I don't mean getting physical.

By "make a move," I mean express interest in her verbally.

It's been suggested to me before I should look for a woman on the spectrum. I'm not entirely opposed. But there are 2 unfortunate factors to take into account:

1. The gender ratio of the autism spectrum makes it mathematically impossible for all (or even most) men on the spectrum to get a woman on the spectrum

2. On a spectrum forum I used to post on (which I won't name), a lot of female posters had no sympathy for male posters who struggle with the ladies (some of the female posters even blamed/mocked us for our struggles). There's a reason I stopped posting on there.

 

[FeatherBird]

Maybe it's helpful to think of it as being affectionate with someone you know is interested in that, instead of with someone who hasn't expressed this desire. Why be affectionate with a complete stranger? You could get yourself into legal trouble, not to mention what they might feel. It might also be helpful to just ask if they want to kiss/hug/whatever, if you're not. No reasonable person will be upset if you respect their boundaries.



Everyone gets rejected and misreads people. It can feel horrible, but it really isn't a big deal. Get to know someone well and build a real relationship, and those other experiences won't seem so important. They can help you make better connections in the future, too.


It may also be helpful to not think of it as "getting a woman." Building a connection would probably get you something more meaningful.

I don't kiss or hug total strangers (but since I didn't elaborate on my OP about what I mean by "make a move," it's fair that you jumped to that conclusion). As I clarified to another poster a few minutes ago, what I mean by "make a move" is: Express verbal interest.

As for why I have an easier time expressing verbal interest in a total stranger vs a woman I already know (and who's dropped potential clues of being into me): As silly as it sounds, the fact a total stranger hasn't given me any clues of being into me is precisely what makes it easier for me to express interest in a total stranger [Because then if she's not into me, I can blame it on the fact she merely doesn't know me...plus, it's not like I thought the total stranger was into me anyway, therefore a rejection from a total stranger doesn't mean I misread a clue. Whereas if a woman I know well, and who has given me potential clues of interest, were to reject me, it would be a reminder of my ASD (which I'm extremely insecure about) causing me to misread a woman's clues]

To address your comment about how even neurotypicals are prone to misreading a woman's clues, you're 100% correct. But neurotypicals read a woman's clues correctly a much higher percentage of the time than a man with ASD does.

If I were neurotypical, rejection likely would be less of a big deal because:

1) Since I'd be better (even if not perfect) at reading a woman's clues, I'd statistically be more likely to find another woman after getting rejected
2) Since I'd be better at reading a woman's clues, I'd be less likely to even end up in the position of having to find another woman (because I'd be less likely to get rejected in the first place if I was better at reading a woman's clues)
3) If I were neurotypical, at least I wouldn't end up feeling like feces because of my ASD after getting rejected

 

[Pats]

Talking to strangers is safer, in a sense. It don't hurt when they look at us weird and walk away. I'm that way in just conversation. I can have a long conversation with a total stranger and me actually be the one to start it. With people I know I have a harder time figuring out what to say because of past experiences. Those are the ones that look at me weird and walk away.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

No, I don't mean getting physical.

By "make a move," I mean express interest in her verbally.

It's been suggested to me before I should look for a woman on the spectrum. I'm not entirely opposed. But there are 2 unfortunate factors to take into account:

1. The gender ratio of the autism spectrum makes it mathematically impossible for all (or even most) men on the spectrum to get a woman on the spectrum

2. On a spectrum forum I used to post on (which I won't name), a lot of female posters had no sympathy for male posters who struggle with the ladies (some of the female posters even blamed/mocked us for our struggles). There's a reason I stopped posting on there.

yeah its long been said that there are far more men than women on the autism spectrum, and yes, i don't need to say, but this is a burden or norm that men will likely always be stuck with, hence why, cases like Tony, or just wizardry, are always male dominated.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

yeah its long been said that there are far more men than women on the autism spectrum, and yes, i don't need to say, but this is a burden or norm that men will likely always be stuck with, hence why, cases like Tony, or just wizardry, are always male dominated.

Looking purely at the numbers it can seem bleak. But, many people on the spectrum have no interest in relationships. There are also gay men, not to mention a number of children who are included in that statistic. So it isn't very reliable. It only takes into account a part of reality and then we can get a false impression from that.

If we learn about people and socializing from the internet and research, this is more likely to delude us. It provides a lot of storytelling, which we mistake as logical because it just rationalizes bias. Going into the world and dealing with real people will help us break down illusion and throw it away. If men here want to find a woman who's right for them, they will have to deal with different women as equals until they find one. It's simple and anyone can do that. There are no skills involved, just honesty. Many threads here complicate this under some pretense of logic, which is just a fancy way of running from pain.

Looking at the bigger picture: a lot of women on this site are probably open to dating. But, so many of the dating threads are from angry, resentful men. Even some of the calmer posts generalize and vilify women, sometimes trying to view people as if they should--or can--be emotionless. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of human beings. No honest person would respond well to this.

Reality is just out the door. It's not in numbers or ideologies or turning blame into some academic exercise.

 

[FeatherBird]

Looking purely at the numbers it can seem bleak. But, many people on the spectrum have no interest in relationships. There are also gay men, not to mention a number of children who are included in that statistic. So it isn't very reliable. It only takes into account a part of reality and then we can get a false impression from that.

If we learn about people and socializing from the internet and research, this is more likely to delude us. It provides a lot of storytelling, which we mistake as logical because it just rationalizes bias. Going into the world and dealing with real people will help us break down illusion and throw it away. If men here want to find a woman who's right for them, they will have to deal with different women as equals until they find one. It's simple and anyone can do that. There are no skills involved, just honesty. Many threads here complicate this under some pretense of logic, which is just a fancy way of running from pain.

Looking at the bigger picture: a lot of women on this site are probably open to dating. But, so many of the dating threads are from angry, resentful men. Even some of the calmer posts generalize and vilify women, sometimes trying to view people as if they should--or can--be emotionless. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of human beings. No honest person would respond well to this.

Reality is just out the door. It's not in numbers or ideologies or turning blame into some academic exercise.

I've noticed asexuality appears to be more common on the spectrum than with neurotypicals (so it's true some of us, from both genders, aren't looking for a relationship or sex)

It's true there are male children as well as gay guys on the spectrum. Then again, there are female children as well as lesbians on the spectrum (in other words, even when you subtract male children and gay guys, I don't think that makes the gender ratio any more favorable for us)

 

[FeatherBird]

Looking purely at the numbers it can seem bleak. But, many people on the spectrum have no interest in relationships. There are also gay men, not to mention a number of children who are included in that statistic. So it isn't very reliable. It only takes into account a part of reality and then we can get a false impression from that.

If we learn about people and socializing from the internet and research, this is more likely to delude us. It provides a lot of storytelling, which we mistake as logical because it just rationalizes bias. Going into the world and dealing with real people will help us break down illusion and throw it away. If men here want to find a woman who's right for them, they will have to deal with different women as equals until they find one. It's simple and anyone can do that. There are no skills involved, just honesty. Many threads here complicate this under some pretense of logic, which is just a fancy way of running from pain.

Looking at the bigger picture: a lot of women on this site are probably open to dating. But, so many of the dating threads are from angry, resentful men. Even some of the calmer posts generalize and vilify women, sometimes trying to view people as if they should--or can--be emotionless. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of human beings. No honest person would respond well to this.

Reality is just out the door. It's not in numbers or ideologies or turning blame into some academic exercise.

Another thing I meant to mention: I've totally noticed a lot of men on the spectrum are particularly bitter.

That type of thing (developing a bitter attitude) doesn't happen in a vacuum though. Most bitter men became bitter as a result of bad luck in the dating/sex department (there are bitter neurotypical men too...but since men with ASD are way more likely to struggle than neurotypical men, that's why the bitter attitude is more common among ASD men)

Elliott Rodger, for example, had ASD. And no, I don't support his actions. I totally see where his bitterness came from though. He had good looks, yet had a crippling social phobia preventing him from approaching a woman. As a result, he was still a virgin at 22. And to add insult to injury, the fact he was immersed in a college setting meant he had to see a lot of dudes uglier than him having success with good-looking college girls.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Another thing I meant to mention: I've totally noticed a lot of men on the spectrum are particularly bitter.

That type of thing (developing a bitter attitude) doesn't happen in a vacuum though. Most bitter men became bitter as a result of bad luck in the dating/sex department (there are bitter neurotypical men too...but since men with ASD are way more likely to struggle than neurotypical men, that's why the bitter attitude is more common among ASD men)

Elliott Rodger, for example, had ASD. And no, I don't support his actions. I totally see where his bitterness came from though. He had good looks, yet had a crippling social phobia preventing him from approaching a woman. As a result, he was still a virgin at 22. And to add insult to injury, the fact he was immersed in a college setting meant he had to see a lot of dudes uglier than him having success with good-looking college girls.

was it proven he was on the autism spectrum? one fact for sure is that, its far more common for men than for women to overlook bitterness and resentment in the opposite sex.

I sometimes get angry and pissed off that i was born male, and i get more pissed off whenever people say go get a sex change, because sex changes are not natural.

 

[FeatherBird]

was it proven he was on the autism spectrum? one fact for sure is that, its far more common for men than for women to overlook bitterness and resentment in the opposite sex.

I sometimes get angry and pissed off that i was born male, and i get more pissed off whenever people say go get a sex change, because sex changes are not natural.

This is the first I'm hearing of the possibility that he might have not had ASD.

You've intrigued me. After doing a quick search, some sources say he definitely had ASD; some say his ASD was either nonexistent or unconfirmed.

I'm leaning toward the idea that he really had ASD. His social awkwardness and unfamiliarity with social norms are certainly traits that overlap with ASD.

And if he didn't have ASD, that goes to show: Social phobia really holds a guy back, whether he has ASD or not.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

This is the first I'm hearing of the possibility that he might have not had ASD.

You've intrigued me. After doing a quick search, some sources say he definitely had ASD; some say his ASD was either nonexistent or unconfirmed.

I'm leaning toward the idea that he really had ASD. His social awkwardness and unfamiliarity with social norms are certainly traits that overlap with ASD.

And if he didn't have ASD, that goes to show: Social phobia really holds a guy back, whether he has ASD or not.

yeah, i know i sound like a broken record on this, so i won't be specific, but easily the main thing i've always hated about being born the male gender, is how heterosexual relationships between men and women are formed, how its always been and probably always will be, hence why, i'm sure most forever alone chronically single people in the world are male dominated cases

 

[FeatherBird]

yeah, i know i sound like a broken record on this, so i won't be specific, but easily the main thing i've always hated about being born the male gender, is how heterosexual relationships between men and women are formed, how its always been and probably always will be, hence why, i'm sure most forever alone chronically single people in the world are male dominated cases

You're correct about why men are highly likely to be chronically single (and chronically celibate)...in the western world at least.

Some countries do arranged marriage. Without knowing the statistics off hand, I'd venture to guess there are fewer chronically single/celibate men in those countries.

 

[FeatherBird]

was it proven he was on the autism spectrum? one fact for sure is that, its far more common for men than for women to overlook bitterness and resentment in the opposite sex.

I sometimes get angry and pissed off that i was born male, and i get more pissed off whenever people say go get a sex change, because sex changes are not natural.

I forgot to address your sex change comment.

I personally don't want a sex change, as a sex change would be pointless to me. My preferred intercourse is heterosexual intercourse with a woman. I couldn't do that anymore with a sex change.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

You're correct about why men are highly likely to be chronically single (and chronically celibate)...in the western world at least.

Some countries do arranged marriage. Without knowing the statistics off hand, I'd venture to guess there are fewer chronically single/celibate men in those countries.

yeah i could have sworn i have heard multiple people say over the years that, arranged marriage was the norm for most of human civilization, but then at the same time, people will say that men approaching women, asking the woman out, has been the norm for centuries or beginning of time, is there any evidence to support that?

 

[FeatherBird]

yeah i could have sworn i have heard multiple people say over the years that, arranged marriage was the norm for most of human civilization, but then at the same time, people will say that men approaching women, asking the woman out, has been the norm for centuries or beginning of time, is there any evidence to support that?

After a quick Google search, you're right. Arranged marriages were common even in western countries historically.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

After a quick Google search, you're right. Arranged marriages were common even in western countries historically.

"Across all cultures until modern times, the decision about choosing the partner of an individual wasn't taken by them but their parents." "Arranged marriages were very common throughout the world until the 18th century".

if thats the course, then i wonder what is the origin of the man being the one to ask the woman out on a date or being the one to initiate the relationship, approaching, etc.

 

[FeatherBird]

"Across all cultures until modern times, the decision about choosing the partner of an individual wasn't taken by them but their parents." "Arranged marriages were very common throughout the world until the 18th century".

if thats the course, then i wonder what is the origin of the man being the one to ask the woman out on a date or being the one to initiate the relationship, approaching, etc.

When you think about it, driving a car is such an engrained part of our culture, it probably feels like cars have been around for ages. But the fact of the matter is cars weren't a thing until a little over a century ago.

As another example, as recently as the Victorian era, a woman standing to urinate was common practice. Yet today it's pretty universally regarded that they have to sit.

Goes to show there can be massive societal shifts in a relatively short time frame.

I'd venture to guess the explanation to why there's this idea that the man is traditionally supposed to make the move is a similar explanation: A relatively new phenomenon (in the grand scheme of history) that society has become extremely conditioned to.