Sensitive Topic The Aspie NT conflict? NTs may not be the culprit

[Tigris]

Hi all,

had a lovely intellectual conversation at hte Chatroom about this. I am still not sure how to name this topic. So that's about it.

NTs and Aspies have been at psychological war. I have long suspected after contact with open minded NTs who are also considered deviants by their NT friends.

It does appear that Aspies have been blaming NTs for making social rules not based on logic, efficiency.etc.etc Now it appears that we maybe blaming NTs wrongly but some bigger conspiracy is that play.

Our very existence, we way of communicating, thought and expression probably threatened someone's order(social rules written and invisible) Instead of forcing aspies to adapt, perhaps the ultimate problem is WHO invented these social rules.etc.etc? I am not asking aspies not to adapt but so far its a issue of two hands to clap. NTs are not clapping with us to co-exist and now seeking to wipe us out, (Autism Speaks of a cure) PErhaps... it is a something else.

 

[SignOfLazarus]

I don't call social rules illogical, necessarily. They work to create bonds and connections- a greater good can be achieved with these because in theory [and over long term], happy=productive, unhappy=nonproductive. If a species is miserable and unproductive in general, it dies out.
Those on the spectrum may not inherently need to have these bonds developed, but because of various reasons- including probably oxytocin amounts- are able to be productive in ways that benefit them and their experience and perspective. Perhaps this is possible without being in reciprocal relationships to the degree that those who are not on the spectrum are involved.

No one "makes" the rules- and that's one of the things that makes it hard. There is no actual book. If we don't seek to increase bonds, we don't strive to follow rules and our brain is not necessarily made to easily develop them. Social rules are for connection to a wide variety of individuals in a species.

If we as individuals are more picky about connections, we don't adapt to those rules.
Brains brains brains.

To make a generalized statement such as suggesting all those not on the spectrum want to wipe out those who are by general goal is to really misinterpret most people on the spectrum.

Autism Speaks has a loud voice, and its pretty obvious that it doesn't speak for autistics, but it doesn't even speak for the majority of neurotypicals.

 

[Tigris]

Not all social rules are illogical but certainly if it is majority versus minority it becomes a problem isn it?

Also many people not on the spectrum are hoping to wipe out the spectrum people or even mildly disabled people in one way or another.

Also it appears most NTs seem to follow rules and fail to even question why. Maybe it is a cultural thing?

 

[SignOfLazarus]

Social development/ evolution thing. If your brain is different you will likely deviate from even biologically driven norms to some degree [and the root reason for "social rules" and tradition and culture is ultimately to continue the species].

We have different brains- my entire perception of the world is different, not least because I have difficulty with context clues in any given situation. If I interpret things differently I will also have different natural behavior and different personal responses to any given thing I an another are perceiving.

This means my brain literally does not see/perceive the same thing as those who have a brain more in the "bell curve" [i don't know, it's not normal, but not... different? I don't know what other phrase/words to use].

Example: most people see spaghetti on a plate. I see yarn- WHY ARE YOU EATING YARN?
...right

 

[Ste11aeres]

Also many people not on the spectrum are hoping to wipe out the spectrum people or even mildly disabled people in one way or another.

In the case of the majority of such persons, it is misguided compassion. I'm referring to those trying to find cures. And with some disabilities, finding a cure would be a genuinely altruistic thing.

In the case of a small number persons, their goal is more evil. I'm referring to the people throughout history who have wanted disabled persons to be killed. For a mostly undisputed and well-known example, think of Nazi eugenists.

Let's not forget those who favor abortion if it can be determined that the fetus will have whichever disability or difference. 9 out of 10 babies with down syndrome in the USA are aborted. (Far greater than the percentage of adults who say they support legalized access to abortion!) Thankfully, they can't yet detect autism in the womb.

 

[Tigris]

In the case of the majority of such persons, it is misguided compassion. I'm referring to those trying to find cures. And with some disabilities, finding a cure would be a genuinely altruistic thing.

In the case of a small number persons, their goal is more evil. I'm referring to the people throughout history who have wanted disabled persons to be killed. For a mostly undisputed and well-known example, think of Nazi eugenists.

Let's not forget those who favor abortion if it can be determined that the fetus will have whichever disability or difference. 9 out of 10 babies with down syndrome are aborted. Thankfully, they can't yet detect autism in the womb.

Even the aspect of a cure is very similar to what they do to down syndrome people or what the nazis would do too.

Moreover, most NTs get blamed wrongly by aspies for creating the social order. My question is who created this order that is ableist,racist.etc whatever."ist"?

 

[Tom]

Don't lose your head with conspiracy theories.

What you are up against is Science, and like nature it is ammoral.

 

[Tigris]

No problemo

I was hoping if there is a good way to make Aspies hate NTs less. I am certain the NTs did make any of the rules that make Aspies so miserable. Maybe there are other factors involved? If there is a conspiracy especially with Autism Speaks... dun be too surprised.

 

[Beverly]

Why are you assuming we (Aspies) hate NTs? Why do you assume we are all miserable? I don't hate NTs, in fact my husband and, many of my friends are NTs. I am not miserable and, I do enjoy socializing with people, NT or Aspie.

Yes I have a different way of learning, my perception is not the same as NTs but, that's no reason to dislike NTs.

No one is born knowing how to socialize or what the rules are, we all have to learn them as we grow up and mature. We are each different and, we each learn in different ways. The problem isn't that we are NT or Aspie, it's that some of us (humans) have never learned how to learn in the first place so, some are left confused, frustrated and, give up rather than continue to try to learn how to learn the rules.

Should I hate NTs just because there are more of them to help each other learn how to learn, learn how to fit in or, should I examine myself and see what my problem is, and why I'm not learning then, find a way to solve that problem? Personally, I think the latter is the wiser approach and, it has served me well thus far.

I cannot change how anyone else perceives or reacts to me but, I can change how I perceive and react to them and, if I end my own negative retractions to others, I've removed a vast pool of negativity from my life - since others are not causing negativity in my life, I have no reason to hate or even dislike them. I can see them simply as humans, be neutral and, take each one as an individual.

 

[Tigris]

Not an assumption just that it happens that many aspies in my country hate themselves as much as they hate NTs. And i dont hate them but i plan to help these guys since i came from hell and back too. It is a difficult task.

 

[Ste11aeres]

Moreover, most NTs get blamed wrongly by aspies for creating the social order. My question is who created this order that is ableist,racist.etc whatever."ist"?

The rules that govern our society/culture, this current social order, are not the same as the rules/social order of every human society-different even from our own geographic location in past historical periods.
Perhaps you would enjoy studying history-while most history-at least in the way it is taught-might not answer all of your questions, it will show how human society is constantly changing. I do think there are other periods of history in which Aspies could be more happy. Although I don't know for sure, since our knowledge of past times is very very limited.

 

[Tigris]

Btw i know my topic maybe offensive but i just wanna discuss this issue. Thankfully while not all aspies hate NTs but it is unfortunate for very good reasons why a good number of aspies hate NTs. Perhaps coming from a country whose PM sued a blogger and lacking of freedom of speech and ruled by conservatives might be one of the issues faced by aspies in Asia as a whole?

 

[Ste11aeres]

Perhaps coming from a country whose PM sued a blogger and lacking of freedom of speech and ruled by conservatives?

Good heavens, what country is that?
(And thankfully, here in the USA, conservatives support freedom of speech as much as liberals).

 

[Vinca]

I have observed that sometimes when a person has a number of negative experiences with people from a specific group, they start to form strong negative feeling towards all the people within that group.

 

[Warmheart]

There is no "Us vs. Them." NTs are people. We are people. We are all in this together.

There is never a good reason to hate anyone.

 

[NTgirl4276]

i've been watching this thread all morning and have been unable to piece together an articulate response, but i do have some thoughts rolling around in my head...

1. i find the word "hate" to be really problematic, insofar as it is generally used as shorthand for other emotions/responses. at least in my experience, i observe people using the word "hate" when they really mean something else. "I hate..." is often an oversimplified shorthand for: "I am offended by...", "I am misunderstood by...", "I don't understand...", "I feel excluded by...", "I am superior to...", "I am uncomfortable around/by...", "I vehemently disagree with...", etc. The word "hate" often distracts and/or closes us off from investigating and critically analyzing certain relationships among human beings, because "hate" doesn't lead anywhere productive. it is a non-starter. it does not provide for any logical questions to follow. it is illogical.
2. I often wonder what good it will do to pinpoint where things "started," particularly the -isms (classism, racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, etc.). i think we would all have to concede that they "began" a long, long, long time ago; any casual perusal of human history will find that we have seemingly always arranged ourselves in hierarchies and orders. even if we were to pinpoint a "beginning," would it change the fact that we still have to deal with these hierarchies now? what good would it do to be able to say, "Well, it all started with this one man named Linus Crap Pile" ? The crazy and tragic thing about the -isms is that, even once we are aware of them and how they work to structure our social worlds, that does not make it significantly easier to dismantle them. because they have structured our social worlds; and, we have enabled them to do so. by merely participating in the world, we are often participating in and maintaining them, even despite some of our best intentions.
3. it follows, then, that it's not much of a conspiracy. the world isn't being done to us, we make the world. like Warmheart said, we are all people, we are all in this world-making together.

 

[SignOfLazarus]

No problemo

I was hoping if there is a good way to make Aspies hate NTs less. I am certain the NTs did make any of the rules that make Aspies so miserable. Maybe there are other factors involved? If there is a conspiracy especially with Autism Speaks... dun be too surprised.

Yes. There are many factors, I actually named some of them in my response.

 

[Slithytoves]

Let me preface this by saying that it may sound hostile, but isn't. It's just a direct communication of my point of view. There's nothing personal here at all.

NTs and Aspies have been at psychological war. I have long suspected after contact with open minded NTs who are also considered deviants by their NT friends.

If open-minded NTs are relegated to deviance as well as Aspies, it's not really a psychological war against Aspies. It's a psychological war against differences in thinking and behavior, which is a very broad problem not at all confined to any one, or few, classes of people.

And honestly, I don't think there's any psychological war going on at all. First of all, a nice perk of Privilege is that the dominant majority has the luxury of not thinking about the minority much at all, never mind perceiving an ongoing war, a word which also implies coordinated, conscious effort/ideology which I don't see as pervasive on either "side".

It does appear that Aspies have been blaming NTs for making social rules not based on logic, efficiency.etc.etc Now it appears that we maybe blaming NTs wrongly but some bigger conspiracy is that play.

If Aspies are so monolithic, or so organized, that this can be an accurate statement, I'd say "Where?" and suggest that we focus on more productive efforts to further our rights and acceptance. And I'm with Tom on conspiracy theories.

Our very existence, we way of communicating, thought and expression probably threatened someone's order(social rules written and invisible) Instead of forcing aspies to adapt, perhaps the ultimate problem is WHO invented these social rules.etc.etc? I am not asking aspies not to adapt but so far its a issue of two hands to clap. NTs are not clapping with us to co-exist and now seeking to wipe us out, (Autism Speaks of a cure) PErhaps... it is a something else.

It's already been said that having someone to blame would be useless, not that there is anyone to blame. Consider for a minute that Asperger's was only formally identified in the mid-ish 20th century and wasn't recognized as even remotely common until pretty recently (still underestimated, I think). Major -isms evolve over long periods of time and have many contributors, human and otherwise, and/so making this about Aspies in particular seems a little questionable.

The majority of NTs I know are willing clappers, but I don't expect them to clap everything around to suit me when they are the dominant neurotype and are thus the most common agents/beneficiaries of our systems and social protocols.

(And thankfully, here in the USA, conservatives support freedom of speech as much as or more than liberals).

A civil thread was just shut down for having a political theme, which I totally understand, because of site rules. Can we please not inject politics in this unrelated subject? This was a loaded comment to which other members aren't free to respond. Thanks (sheepishly). I don't mean to be a jerk.

I have observed that sometimes when a person has a number of negative experiences with people from a specific group, they start to form strong negative feeling towards all the people within that group.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. We have to be careful of generalizations and confirmation bias.

 

[Judge]

I'm afraid that some of us are going to have highly polarized viewpoints on this issue given inherent differences between our respective nations' legal systems and cultural sense of conformity.

Yet I find myself asking this question. If such a drive for homogeneity is an inherent manifestation of neurotypical behavior, why do nations and cultures vary so much in how they approach their own sense of social conformity? That in country A for instance, daily life for Aspies can be mildly annoying. But that in country B, life can be intolerable for them.

What I'm trying to say is that if neurotypical conformity was at the heart of all neurodiverse strife, I'd think humanity would be astronomically more cohesive than it is across the planet, given a neurotypical majority. Which obviously isn't the case given the complex differences of one nation versus another.

Simply put, we can't blame everything on neurotypicals alone. It may be a dichotomy, but social conformity has many faces. Unfortunately for we on the spectrum, social conformity is arduous to deal with whatever their sources may actually be.

 

[Suzanne]

I personally am surrounded by NT's and my husband being one of them! I lived my life just thinking I was strange and not fully understanding myself and thus, pushing and facing disappointments all the time.

Actually finding out I am an aspie, both is enlightening and frightening, because I cannot put aside my aspieness to be "normal" and thus, always get into sticky situations.

I do admit that since joining this forum, I do find that a few aspies make excuses for their social rudeness and call everyone else stupid or something, which has taught me, to look at myself in depth and think: am I in the right to push how I feel social cues should be? I take a prime example of eye contact. I used to be dreadful and even now, when a conflict is at hand, I have a hard time looking the person in the eye, but I appreciate how rude it is to not look at a person when talking to them and thus, I have learned to look at someone and as it happens, my faith helps me hugely because I was put on our school ( where we learn how to talk effectively about the bible) and my work on, is rather ironic ie eye contact lol I am petrified actually and keep getting close to saying to the school overseer that I have aspergers, but keep not, which tells me that I have to do this.

The worst part is taking things literally and at first, I found it funny, once I learned I do take things literally and now, feel annoyed when I do, because what others take as no big deal, I find a big deal. Like recently, I was at a 3 day assembly and a brother said that are we not glad we are English? I felt so insulted for all the French there ( I live in France)! Well I asked a French sister about this and she laughed and said: oh, there was nothing wrong in what he said: we are, after all in an English speaking congregation! I felt so stupid that I took it on board to feel slighted for them!

My husband is constantly joking with me and after like 24 years, I should pick up on it, but to this day, I get offended and hate it!

If I could, I would love to wake up an NT!