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Telling truth is bad??

Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
Why is telling the truth perceived to be a negative thing? I don’t understand that if something is said about someone else, that is negative, that it is perceived to be bad and make the person angry if the person is told what has been said when they’re asking? Why do people seem to like to tell untruths to each other? And then when it is told, that they completely deny that they said it when they have said it?

I guess I am too tired for this, and messed up and should have just lied or not said anything at All. I am just done with everything.
 

AprilR

Well-Known Member
People want to be liked and are very emotional and irrational. They prefer positive lies if the truth is negative and if it hurts them. They don't want to face negative feelings.
 

Judge

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
It does seem a very alien concept for most of us on the spectrum to discover forms of communication which can be so easily void of any logic, that may lack any conditional outcomes such as truth or falsehood. Where cordiality is prioritized in the long term- far beyond what may be understood as being true or false.

Some may simply refer to this as "diplomacy", which can often have both lasting advantages and consequences when you must communicate and negotiate with the same people on a routine basis. Regardless of the importance of whatever is discussed. Of course there remains that one critical consideration that constantly "trips" people up.

- Not to get caught.

Still confused? Read a very influential literary work called "The Prince and The Discourses" by Niccolo Machiavelli. An author who IMO most decidedly was not neurodiverse.
 
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Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
The only good truth is the one coincident to the truth the other person wants to listen.

Thats why I love machines and systems.
 

SacredHeart

Member
Hey, @Owliet this is something I have struggled with many times in the past.

I constantly put my foot in it but also constantly tip-toe around with my words with those closest to me out of fear of offending.

I can be callous and cynical.

It is a tightrope, that I don't think I will ever master, there is no winning just a lifetime of me overthinking.
Sometimes I will get it right, sometimes I won't.
Hopefully, you can share in what I consider to be one of my toxic traits.....Ask for forgiveness and not permission, if it's meant to be it will!

I'm sure there are still a handful of people I can lose or push away with this attitude but this also takes A LOT from me mentally and physically and you need to find a balance, granted my approach may not work for you but sometimes it's ok to prioritize you!
 

Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
I seem to understand.…

My sibling has been quite mean to our mom about her boyfriend‘s experience at Christmas last year by saying to me that he did not feel like he was welcome enough to get a glass of water. Which is not true — my parents both welcomed him and tried to make him feel happy About being there with us for three days. I will admit, I was not happy with how it was given to me as a change (we had never had Christmas guests before) and having it suddenly decided that he was going for all three days was difficult to process. My sister told me that her boyfriend didn’t have a good time and didn’t want to join us this year, despite my mom giving him an invitation To join us. Because my sister refused to explain why he didn’t want to come and my mom was very confused about why, and upset, I told my mom what my sister had said. I thought by giving her an explanation about it, that maybe mom would understand and would just let it go. But…that didn’t happen. Turns out my sister has been lying to my mom about her boyfriend because she didnt want to invite him this year.

So, I am confused and a bit sad since my mom is upset, my dad is angry with me for telling my mom the truth and my sibling tried to threaten me with a punch, because some reason telling the truth about it means that I was wrong..

People are just weird…
 

Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
Hey, @Owliet this is something I have struggled with many times in the past.

I constantly put my foot in it but also constantly tip-toe around with my words with those closest to me out of fear of offending.

I can be callous and cynical.

It is a tightrope, that I don't think I will ever master, there is no winning just a lifetime of me overthinking.
Sometimes I will get it right, sometimes I won't.
Hopefully, you can share in what I consider to be one of my toxic traits.....Ask for forgiveness and not permission, if it's meant to be it will!

I'm sure there are still a handful of people I can lose or push away with this attitude but this also takes A LOT from me mentally and physically and you need to find a balance, granted my approach may not work for you but sometimes it's ok to prioritize you!
After my talk with my father — who felt that he had to educate me about this social interaction, I promised him that I wouldn’t talk about things like this anymore. I don’t like it because I feel like it is wrong to say one thing to someone and then another (but my sister is very good at that…../sarcasm) and its probably not worth the drama or me being labeled as a ”tattletale”. Unfortunately, I don’t really have much of a filter and will say the truth and I guess that comes across as blunt or “cruel” or something.
 

AprilR

Well-Known Member
That is so confusing.. What needless drama. You didn't do anything wrong, you had good intentions and are not a psychic to know your mom's and sister's intentions.

I think with conflicts like this its best not to get involved regardless. Also threatening to punch you? Wow.. Thats horrible.
 

Judge

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Unfortunately, I don’t really have much of a filter and will say the truth and I guess that comes across as blunt or “cruel” or something.
It's just not their way. Where continuing to be logically honest and truthful will just result in some very illogical consequences. Though we all seem to have varying abilities to filter out such traits and behaviors. Potentially ranging from moderately difficult to impossible.
 

SacredHeart

Member
I seem to understand.…

My sibling has been quite mean to our mom about her boyfriend‘s experience at Christmas last year by saying to me that he did not feel like he was welcome enough to get a glass of water. Which is not true — my parents both welcomed him and tried to make him feel happy About being there with us for three days. I will admit, I was not happy with how it was given to me as a change (we had never had Christmas guests before) and having it suddenly decided that he was going for all three days was difficult to process. My sister told me that her boyfriend didn’t have a good time and didn’t want to join us this year, despite my mom giving him an invitation To join us. Because my sister refused to explain why he didn’t want to come and my mom was very confused about why, and upset, I told my mom what my sister had said. I thought by giving her an explanation about it, that maybe mom would understand and would just let it go. But…that didn’t happen. Turns out my sister has been lying to my mom about her boyfriend because she didnt want to invite him this year.

So, I am confused and a bit sad since my mom is upset, my dad is angry with me for telling my mom the truth and my sibling tried to threaten me with a punch, because some reason telling the truth about it means that I was wrong..

People are just weird…
Oh it's family drama ...... sorry, my advice may not be useful in this setting.
I've yet to come to terms with communications with my family, they seem to be the most sensitive bunch of them all.

Things said by me as a child can still haunt me today.
I love my family, but we aren't friends, we seem to have accepted we are bound to each other for life and when it comes down to it we are family and there for each other but there is no occasion we can get through without someone being angry, upset, hurt, ignorant, obnoxious.

It's like a game of snakes and ladders!
 

AprilR

Well-Known Member
I don't think what you did was blunt or cruel. The whole situation is hard to understand, you just tried to resolve it.
I don't see anything bad with it?

After all, your sister's boyfriend was also blunt and cruel" to say he didn't want to come this year bc he felt uninvited. If you feel uninvited, why not make up an excuse to not come, instead of creating conflict by saying the truth? If i were him, i would definitely not say something like that. It just creates drama and conflict. To me, your sister's bf seems like the problem here. Why make your feelings every one else's problem?
 

SacredHeart

Member
After my talk with my father — who felt that he had to educate me about this social interaction,
ahhh had this happen to me this week, it's a trigger.
No one is appropriate in every social interaction, if this was brought up to help you 'moving forward' as you might be missing the point because you are autistic, I would have lost my ****.....I don't think I'm the level-headed person to advise you on anything or what best to do....

Always hear if you want to rant though!
 

Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
sorry, my advice may not be useful in this setting.
I felt that it was still helpful.=)

That is so confusing.. What needless drama. You didn't do anything wrong, you had good intentions and are not a psychic to know your mom's and sister's intentions.

I think with conflicts like this its best not to get involved regardless. Also threatening to punch you? Wow.. Thats horrible.
Yes. It is very frustrating to know that my sibling is yet again lying about saying something, and hurting another person. She also made a comment regarding the status of the kitchen. My mom wants to prepare everything for Christmas, so a lot of cleaning although it isn’t much but considering her current health situation is not so good, she is not always well enough to do it herself and she doesn’t just want us (me) to do it because she likes to have it in an exact way. So my sister was saying that the mess in the kitchen is the first thing that people notice, and suggested that this is also what her boyfriend noticed — it was not dirty so I dont understand what he expected. But maybe there is a cultural difference of what a kitchen is supposed to look like for him, and my mom is a bit chaotic when she cooks But this was not a situation.

It’s okay, last year when I had my argument about him coming for the three days NOT the one day that was told to me before I came back home from working in another city, I had the “he’s a precious man, and I love him and he’s more important and I wont let you hurt him” …and then she did hIt me.
It's just not their way. Where continuing to be logically honest and truthful will just result in some very illogical consequences. Though we all seem to have varying abilities to filter out such traits and behaviors. Potentially ranging from moderately difficult to impossible.
Yes, this is what I currently am experiencing. =(
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
I've come to the epiphany that there are people that, on the inside, are not good people,...and when they interact with each other,...as a matter of civil discourse, they are often using deceptive language,...or, in your example, outright lies. This is, unfortunately, a part of our communication repertoire,...when dealing with someone face-to-face. This type of behavior,...this indirect language, is non-confrontational,...is even considered polite in some circles.

As an autistic who may not understand this yet,...and is often using direct language,...it can be rather confrontational or even rude to just "say what you mean". You may actually confuse a neurotypical person by being direct,...because they might not recognize it as such. They might try to "read between the lines"..."So, what you're really trying to say is...."...and then they misinterpret and get things totally wrong. Then you have to repeat and explain yourself again,...or worse, you write an e-mail or text and they get angry at you,...because they jump to the worst possible meaning of your communication. That's another frustrating trait of many people.

I have lost count of how many times over the many years I have had this issue. People take things the wrong way, get angry with you, and you are "a bad person" for stating the obvious truth (albeit from one's own perspective). "You yelled at me!"..."No, at no point did I even change the tone of my voice."...or,...if it was written, THEY put a vocal tone on what they read, that had they just read the words, would have a totally different meaning.

No doubt, I think the nuances of how to interpret language, its intent, the micro aggressions, the body and facial micro expressions, cultural nuances,...there's a lot going on. Certainly, with more and more people isolating themselves behind their electronic devices, face-to-face communication skills are fading away. I think neurotypicals and autistics have difficulties with communication,...but in different ways. As frustrating and sometimes anxiety-inducing it is to just talk with someone, it's a skill, takes a lot of practice,...and for us,...it can be mentally exhausting and confusing.
 

Forest Cat

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
It’s okay, last year when I had my argument about him coming for the three days NOT the one day that was told to me before I came back home from working in another city, I had the “he’s a precious man, and I love him and he’s more important and I wont let you hurt him” …and then she did hIt me.

This is just wrong. You are her sister and he is just some guy she ran into. So your sister is flat out wrong. Precious man, that's a little silly and funny, strange thing to say. He's so precious. :) To tell you that he is more important than her own family is a little messed up. I'm guessing she is young.
 

MildredHubble

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
The only good truth is the one coincident to the truth the other person wants to listen.

Thats why I love machines and systems.
I read about a study quite a while ago. The gist of it was that they developed a language based on logic that they taught to a group of people.

The outcome was that the participants became more logical when solving problems and felt that the language helped avoid conflicts. They also became very irritated with other people's lack of logic in every day conversation.

I too like machines and systems. There's no woolly middle ground with them. When I'm repairing say a vintage computer, it won't withhold information or try to mislead me or play games.

There's just objective reality with such things. I think being very interested in these sorts of things helped nurture my logical thinking. But the more I've improved my logical reasoning abilities the less sense human behaviour makes to me! :smilecat:

I'm not a robot of course. But some of the weird "social dancing" around the "truth" I just seem to lack an ability to get right.

I've had a situation where someone at work comes into the office in a huff about not being able to find something and I've said "oh I saw you put it over there yesterday." Then they got angry as apparently I was saying it was their fault. When I was just telling them where I thought the thing might be. I wasn't being accusative.
 

Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
I don't think what you did was blunt or cruel. The whole situation is hard to understand, you just tried to resolve it.
I don't see anything bad with it?

After all, your sister's boyfriend was also blunt and cruel" to say he didn't want to come this year bc he felt uninvited. If you feel uninvited, why not make up an excuse to not come, instead of creating conflict by saying the truth? If i were him, i would definitely not say something like that. It just creates drama and conflict. To me, your sister's bf seems like the problem here. Why make your feelings every one else's problem?
My mom, particularly expected him to come this year like last year. He doesn’t celebrate Christmas, and she really thought that he had a good time last year. To find out that he didn’t want to come with some weird explanation, hurt her. I tried to explain to her the why because she was worried that she was a bad host and it was stressing her out (because she has a friend coming a few days after Christmas) and she didnt want to make the same mistakes. My sibling is just a disappointment — but I knew that anyway..after what she did to me.

it's a trigger.
No one is appropriate in every social interaction, if this was brought up to help you 'moving forward' as you might be missing the point because you are autistic, I would have lost my ****.....I don't think I'm the level-headed person to advise you on anything or what best to do....
Yes, having that line about being ASD I dont know these things is very upsetting — this is mainly why I feel sad because I feel like I have done something wrong and messed up.
 

Judge

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
This is just wrong. You are her sister and he is just some guy she ran into. So your sister is flat out wrong. Precious man, that's a little silly and funny, strange thing to say. He's so precious. :)

You might be shocked at how many people from families (often depending on cultures) will abandon their own kin to take up with complete strangers. Better yet, consider the veracity of people in civil wars who choose to take opposite sides even against their own kin.

Not everyone in the masses is so apt to consider family and blood first and foremost. Sad, but true, depending of course on the nature of one's family. Some being so toxic that you have to remove yourself from them as a matter of self-preservation.

Then again, consider the division within families based on NT and ND differences. Plenty of such stories right here.

All I have left in this life is a local cousin who marginalizes my autism every chance she can get. And a distant brother who understands somewhat better, but is someone I seldom see in person. When it comes to autism and family ties, if I had to describe it, I'd probably lament "Kobyashi Maru". - A "no-win" scenario. That if anything, the gap between the NT and the ND at times can easily transcend any basic appreciation of family ties. :(
 
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Forest Cat

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
My mom, particularly expected him to come this year like last year. He doesn’t celebrate Christmas, and she really thought that he had a good time last year. To find out that he didn’t want to come with some weird explanation, hurt her. I tried to explain to her the why because she was worried that she was a bad host and it was stressing her out (because she has a friend coming a few days after Christmas) and she didnt want to make the same mistakes. My sibling is just a disappointment — but I knew that anyway..after what she did to me.


Yes, having that line about being ASD I dont know these things is very upsetting — this is mainly why I feel sad because I feel like I have done something wrong and messed up.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood something or not, did you sister lie about it or did he really say he didn't have a good time with her family during Christmas? If he was invited into his girlfriends home for Christmas and he actually complained afterwards and said something about a "messy kitchen" that wasn't good enough for him and he didn't want to visit them again this year, I'm assuming he was raised by wild dogs on a landfill. It's unbelievably rude and selfish behaviour. You don't say that to or about people who invited you into their home. That's crazy.
 
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Owliet

The Hidden One.
V.I.P Member
I've come to the epiphany that there are people that, on the inside, are not good people,...and when they interact with each other,...as a matter of civil discourse, they are often using deceptive language,...or, in your example, outright lies. This is, unfortunately, a part of our communication repertoire,...when dealing with someone face-to-face. This type of behavior,...this indirect language, is non-confrontational,...is even considered polite in some circles.

As an autistic who may not understand this yet,...and is often using direct language,...it can be rather confrontational or even rude to just "say what you mean". You may actually confuse a neurotypical person by being direct,...because they might not recognize it as such. They might try to "read between the lines"..."So, what you're really trying to say is...."...and then they misinterpret and get things totally wrong. Then you have to repeat and explain yourself again,...or worse, you write an e-mail or text and they get angry at you,...because they jump to the worst possible meaning of your communication. That's another frustrating trait of many people.

I have lost count of how many times over the many years I have had this issue. People take things the wrong way, get angry with you, and you are "a bad person" for stating the obvious truth (albeit from one's own perspective). "You yelled at me!"..."No, at no point did I even change the tone of my voice."...or,...if it was written, THEY put a vocal tone on what they read, that had they just read the words, would have a totally different meaning.

No doubt, I think the nuances of how to interpret language, its intent, the micro aggressions, the body and facial micro expressions, cultural nuances,...there's a lot going on. Certainly, with more and more people isolating themselves behind their electronic devices, face-to-face communication skills are fading away. I think neurotypicals and autistics have difficulties with communication,...but in different ways. As frustrating and sometimes anxiety-inducing it is to just talk with someone, it's a skill, takes a lot of practice,...and for us,...it can be mentally exhausting and confusing.
This happens to me quite often — and the more I try to understand it and try to manage around it, it seems like I just seem to be missing out on something vital. Although that‘s obvious in the why…I think if she had been honest or at least direct about it, it would have been less hurtful for my mom and helped her understand more. The indirect, games and lies is what can lead to having something Taken the wrong way — why “neurotypicals“ dont seem to understand that to make their lives easier….The many times Ive had people take things the wrong way, get angry for me being truthful, or for being noncommittal in my response (I had this in my job last year, it wasn’t a bad situation, it was just something that we all agreed about allowing the kids to get ice cream but apparently that wasn’t allowed — but we all agreed, my boss wanted me to be honest and actually say who made the decision. She didn’t like it when I said that we all agreed, she thought that I was being noncommittal about it…) can’t win really.

I agree with the lack of face-to-face communication skills. I used to think it was a good thing but even in writing, a lot of NTs seem to expect something is hidden in the writing communication….when there isn’t any. Must be exhausting trying to interpret languages with trying to read things that aren’t there.
I'm guessing she is young.
Not really. Only a few years younger than me — however, he is her first serious boyfriend…so maybe she has the “honeymoon glasses” on…
You might be shocked at how many people from families
Yes, my sibling seems to hate us all for some reason. I posted about how she was spreading lies about me in another thread recently, and that really hurt me. her behavior this time does not surprise me — since she is just a disappointment to me — but i know that it hurts my mom and she’s not well enough to deal with my sibling’s behavior. My sister will continuously talk about her boyfriend and his family — how great the mom is, how great the dad is and how nice the brother is (although the brother is apparently also on the spectrum too — and she doesn’t like him…)
did you sister lie about it or did he really say he didn't have a good time with her family during Christmas?
This is the problem at first, she said that she didn’t want him to come because she wanted to have Christmas with us. She said to me, that he didn’t feel welcome because he couldn’t get a glass of water. And to us yesterday, she mentioned about the kitchen and made a mention that when he was there he noticed it was dirty too (but he also noticed how untidy her bedroom was). I told her that if she wanted to make the kitchen tidy, she could do it. But I ended up doing it today….one less thing for mom.

I don’t know what is the true truth about him not wanting to come but it is not what she was saying about him not wanting to come because she wanted Christmas with only us. Remember, last year, she Didnt want him to come but he did. And when he was here, she didn’t do anything to help out either….neither of them did…
 

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