Romantic interest

[Roy pryer]

Any man who uses the terms 'babe' and 'darling' need to be avoided at all costs. They are embarrassing and total dinosaurs.

I totally agree with you babe!

 

[Skids]

I totally agree with you babe!

I'm a 41 year old heterosexual yorkshireman covered in tattoos but whatever floats your boat.............

 

[Judge]

Interesting to note that Time Magazine has designated the "Me Too" Movement as their "Person of the Year". Women ARE being heard.

Though whether those men who lack such self control will heed this message is anyone's guess.

In the meantime, look at all the prominent names in entertainment and politics who have more or less been ruined by their own indiscretions. With no doubt many more such names to follow in the near future.

 

[Ambi]

I agree with most of what you've said and from my first comment I agreed that what is going on is totally wrong and is sexual harassment.

There's also a fine line between someone giving the chase thinking that a women might just be hard to get and sexual harassment, I agree that it sounds like most men here are treating her like an object, but there could also be men who wrongfully think they might eventually win her affection if they keep chasing too or worse a man could get tarred with the same brush by simply politely asking the op out once. It is important that she makes it absolutely clear that she is not interested and never will be to every man that makes any sort of unwanted advance, then if they continue after that it is sexual harassment. I say there's a fine line because my late Nan was also hard to get, my Grandad had to ask her out on multiple occasions and she wasn't interested at first, after he gave chase for a good while she reluctantly agreed to go out on a single date, but she got cold feet and didn't turn up after speaking to her friends telling them that she didn't think she liked him. My Grandad still didn't give up and after chasing for a while longer my Nan eventually reluctantly agreed to go out once again and this time she turned up, even though she didn't appear to like my Grandad at first, things went very well on the date and she fell in love with him. They were happily married for over 60 years until death did them part. My point is was my Grandad sexually harassing my Nan? That's where there's a fine line.

It would also be a great shame if the op started believing that all men are "b*s***ds" and ends up hating all men because of these bad experiences, some men really are "b*s***ds" yes and the one's that are sexually harassing now definitely appear to be, also it's true that some men do only act with one interest and see women as purely objects and/or "meat", but not all men are like this and maybe one day the op will be asked out by a genuinely nice caring man that she does like. I'm just saying that if/when that days comes I hope the op doesn't then strongly reject him simply because of bad past experiences with other men and then later regrets it.

There is not a fine line here - what she described is harassment, regardless of whether some intend it to be or not. If you are talking about some other hypothetical situation not described here, and you have general wishes for the OP about not thinking all men are jerks, there is no point in addressing your opinions as a response to my message. And frankly, the OP said nothing about being prejudiced against all men, so I still think there's no relevance to this thread. But address your comments directly to her so as to avoid confusion.

 

[pjcnet]

There is not a fine line here - what she described is harassment, regardless of whether some intend it to be or not. If you are talking about some other hypothetical situation not described here, and you have general wishes for the OP about not thinking all men are jerks, there is no point in addressing your opinions as a response to my message. And frankly, the OP said nothing about being prejudiced against all men, so I still think there's no relevance to this thread. But address your comments directly to her so as to avoid confusion.

I'm afraid it is my nature to look at both sides of most situations even if the vast majority of people only look at one side and agree with it. I have however repeatedly agreed that there is harassment going on from the start and also that it is unacceptable, but what if someone was genuinely interested and decided to pluck up the courage to ask her out? Just asking someone out once is not really harassment unless it has already been made absolutely clear by her not to, although it shouldn't really be done in works time, but in this situation they'd probably get tarred with the same brush as another person who is harassing because they have added to the ongoing issue and if like my grandad a man then decided to chase believing that they might still have a chance in future they would definitely be considered as harassing and I agree that they would be, but that's why there can be a fine line because there are also many situations where women appear hard to get and yet by chasing they both end up in a loving relationship even when the women didn't at first believe that this would happen. In nature males more often than not do the chasing, sometimes the female rejects, but by persisting and often by showing off their assets they sometimes still get to mate while on other occasions the female will always refuse them to mate, humans are animals too and we also have basic animal instincts, even though we often try to act high and mighty that we're much better than everything else. Edit: Humans are often expected to override many animal instincts to be acceptable in modern society, but they're still there and often still show.

The op might not have said anything about being prejudiced against all men directly, but if lots of men keep harassing her that is a very possible and probably even a likely outcome, I also got the vibe that this might already have happened by most definitely not being interested in anyone full stop from the very start, if the op wants keep away from all possible love interests then that is her right and men should respect that, but it is also against our prime natural instinct which is to "survive" so I also suspect there maybe more to this, E.g. past hurts or other complex issues, I however hope that saying this won't dig things up that will upset the op and that's why up until now I've been skating around the subject including replying to you instead.

 

[Ambi]

I'm afraid it is my nature to look at both sides of most situations even if the vast majority of people only look at one side and agree with it. I have however repeatedly agreed that there is harassment going on from the start and also that it is unacceptable, but what if someone was genuinely interested and decided to pluck up the courage to ask her out? Just asking someone out once is not really harassment unless it has already been made absolutely clear by her not to, although it shouldn't really be done in works time, but in this situation they'd probably get tarred with the same brush as another person who is harassing because they have added to the ongoing issue and if like my grandad a man then decided to chase believing that they might still have a chance in future they would definitely be considered as harassing and I agree that they would be, but that's why there can be a fine line because there are also many situations where women appear hard to get and yet by chasing they both end up in a loving relationship even when the women didn't at first believe that this would happen. In nature males more often than not do the chasing, sometimes the female rejects, but by persisting and often by showing off their assets they sometimes still get to mate while on other occasions the female will always to refuse them to mate, humans are animals too and we also have basic animal instincts, even though we often try to act high and mighty that we're much better than everything else.

The op might not have said anything about being prejudiced against all men directly, but if lots of men keep harassing her that is a very possible and probably even a likely outcome, I also got the vibe that this might already have happened by most definitely not being interested in anyone full stop from the very start, if the op wants keep away from all possible love interests then that is her right and men should respect that, but it is also against our prime natural instinct which is to "survive" so I also suspect there maybe more to this, E.g. past hurts or other complex issues, I however hope that saying this won't dig things up that will upset the op and that's why up until now I've been skating around the subject including replying to you instead.

That's all fine and good - but why are you introducing totally new things into the thread? And addressing them towards me? Your "But what if...?" That is totally hypothetical - and there are as many hypotheticals that could be introduced here as there are people reading this thread. To me, that is really pointless. It's a tangent. You can bring that up with the OP if she wants to consider that tangent, but you are describing a very different scenario than the one she is describing - one that has not even happened, that has no basis in the reality of at she even asked about.

And for some reason you are addressing it to me, though I have no use for it. For example "just asking someone out once is not harassment" - so what? She didn't ask about that. And you have NO proof that in this case such a person would get "tarred by the same brush" - basically all of your assumptions that the OP would be prejudiced against all the other good guys who might come along are totally based on nothing she has said - they are all scenarios and assumptions that are playing out within your own head.

So.....why are you posting these things as responses to my comments? It is totally random and baffling. As well as your generally trying to share some kind of anthropological theory of dating, with men flashing assets persistently, etc. All of that has NOTHING to do with the original post - and I certainly didn't ask you about it.

As for the the "very possible and likely outcome" of her being prejudiced against men despite her "not having said anything" to suggest that - again - these are all your own suppositions and assumptions......you can address them all to the OP if you'd like but honestly, you would then be making her answer to/defend herself against all kinds of things that she never brought up and never even gave a hint towards. If you still want to know if she feels this way, then you can just ask her. But please stop elaborating randomly about things I haven't asked about, don't see the point of, and certainly don't apply to me in any way - don't "skate around" the OP and respond to me instead because you think that will somehow spare her feelings (again, one of a million different suppositions and fears you could have about her floating around in your imagination without finding out directly by just asking her) - it just confuses me and I really don't appreciate it, now or in the future.

 

[pjcnet]

I won't just reply to @Ambi this time, but I think being totally against any possibility of being interested in anyone from the very start and the possible reasons for this are very relevant to the original thread (please see what I've written above in reply to @Ambi too). As I said before it is everyone's right to totally reject any possible love interest and that should be respected, but being like that in the first place and the way this can come across will have almost certainly contributed to the situation. I think that the potential knock on effect of this where genuine nice men who may be interested could be tarred with the same brush, or harshly rejected because of this harassment is also relevant. The replies above to me are just a healthy debate and it's not uncommon for people to disagree with each other, that's part of what makes us all unique and it also makes the world an interesting place, in this situation I usually ask to agree to disagree and move on.

PS: I felt drawn into the conversation after the op replied to myself and that reply was then already answered not by myself with alternative opinions, there's nothing wrong in answering or having different opinions, I'm only explaining how it started.

 

[pjcnet]

It didn't bother me personally at the time, but I have lost count how many times a woman has pinched me on the bum without permission when I was in my late teens, 20s and 30s in places such as busy pubs, occasionally they've even started seducing or feeling my privates without permission, okay many men may like it, but some may not and they often don't get a choice, yet nothing is ever said about that, but if a man pinches a women on the bum or worse starts feeling her privates without permission it is suddenly serious sexual assault. If women want equality that is fine by myself, but they should get equality BOTH WAYS and that also goes in many other ways, E.g. it's only right for women to get equal pay / promotions / employment opportunities, but they should NOT still expect men to automatically buy all the food/drinks and still be "the providers".

Interesting to note that Time Magazine has designated the "Me Too" Movement as their "Person of the Year". Women ARE being heard.

Though whether those men who lack such self control will heed this message is anyone's guess.

In the meantime, look at all the prominent names in entertainment and politics who have more or less been ruined by their own indiscretions. With no doubt many more such names to follow in the near future.

I would also like to mention that it is virtually always assumed that it's only women that are sexually assaulted or abused, where in any campaign, E.g. the "Me Too" movement, does it mention about men who could be victims? Also virtually all support networks are there only to help women while automatically presuming men are always guilty, in many support services men wouldn't even be welcome on the premises let alone to get support entirely because they're male, E.g. we don't want men anywhere near the premises as they could upset the women victims. It might not be as common, but men can be sexually harassed and/or abused too, there is also other types of abuse like domestic violence where men can be victims too (I was a victim, yet when neighbours complained about the noise when I WAS ATTACKED more than once, I was the one who got a domestic violence warning letter from the police entirely because I was male and it was automatically assumed that I was beating up a woman without any investigation what-so-ever), but understandably men are usually frightened to ever come forward as they feel they won't be taken seriously or believed, E.g. a man is sexually assaulted, he reports it to the police, but the woman who assaulted him says, "no, he assaulted me" in her defence, the VICTIM then gets arrested while the woman perpetrator gets comfort and sympathy entirely because she is a women and he is a man because the police automatically presume the man is the guilty one along with virtually everyone else often including the courts and jury. I am straight, but another possible issue that I don't see addressed is gay men or even men who aren't gay who can also receive sexual harassment or abuse from other gay men, again because the victim is male will they ever dare to come forward without fearing that they won't be treated seriously and fairly? Since in this situation only males are involved both sides will probably be believed equally, but a man probably still won't be treated as seriously as a woman would be and again all support networks and campaigns only appear to be supporting women.

What also worries me is there is the possibility of a few corrupt women who will use this biased system to their advantage and this has bound to have happened in my opinion, E.g. lets accuse a male celebrity of sexual assault or harassment that we've been in contact with, they've got loads of money and we are looking at a massive payout here (hopefully out of court), but even the press will probably pay handsomely for my story, I honestly wonder how many times this has happened where the male celebrity is in fact innocent? Even if the celebrity does pay out of court to avoid the terrible trauma of being accused in court with all the horrid press coverage they're still assumed guilty by most of the general public and this can then ruin their career and life, also the adverse press coverage can potentially cause other people to see them as an easy target for further accusations that could also be false. Here's another example: a man falls out with a women (maybe they were in a relationship), a great way to get revenge is to claim sexual assault or even rape (when it was in fact most definitely consensual), in these situations the women is again more likely to be believed while the man will be automatically treated as guilty and even if he isn't convicted many people will continue to believe he was guilty and that alone could destroy his life. Even the threat of reporting an innocent man for sexual assault or rape could be used to blackmail and abuse him, overall a man having consensual sexual contact with anyone is at risk unless they are absolutely certain they know the women very well and even just being alone with a women could potentially get them into trouble, even more so if they're a celebrity. I'm not saying that there's not lots of genuine women out there who are sexually harassed and assaulted by men, but when there is also in my opinion a minority of women corrupting the system it's makes it extremely difficult to make it easy for women who really have been sexually assaulted or harassed to get justice and protection, while also preventing innocent men from being wrongly treated and punished, but at the moment the women's side is more often than not automatically believed whether it's true or not.

 

[Roy pryer]

I understand your concerns it happened to me in a pub a girl came up behind me & slapped me on the bottom, when i turned round she said " oo im sorry i thought you were George Clooney.

 

[Roy pryer]

@pjcnet

The law is on the side of women Look at all the cases lately of women molesting young underage boys. They tend to get away with it or get a lenient sentence. A man would get about 20 years.

 

[Judge]

I would also like to mention that it is virtually always assumed that it's only women that are sexually assaulted or abused, where in any campaign, E.g. the "Me Too" movement, does it mention about men who could be victims?

Just type in "Me Too victims who are men?" into most any search engine to answer such a question. Plenty of pros and cons of that issue to be found.

Of course there will always be a disparity between the number of male versus female victims. However it doesn't change the reality that there are some male victims as well. Sadly IMO it is our US courts who would just as easily dismiss such claims against a male if litigated or prosecuted pretty much on the same grounds. A legal system that fundamentally favors the accused rather than an accuser.

Though I find it interesting that portions of society apparently have begun to do an "end run" around the legal's sytem's approach. Politicians and corporations enacting a heavy-handed form of "shaming" that is now working for whatever reason for the timed being. Though we all know that in their instance they're just performing the covering of their own arses rather than any sincere and moral revelation. Politicians and shareholders always want to be on the winning side of any argument. No secret there.

As for how much of this may enable the biblical notion and possibility of bearing false witness against another, I suppose time will tell. But then the exposure and possibility of this happening have been around since mankind. A basis for a legal system where one is innocent until proven guilty. Except in the court of public opinion, where the Internet has altered the equation.

 

[the_tortoise]

gay men or even men who aren't gay who can also receive sexual harassment or abuse from other gay men

Straight men can sexually abuse, harrass and assault other men of any sexuality. Far more sexual abuse and assaults against males are perpetrated by straight men than by gay men. (I imagine this is just because there are far more straight men in the world than there are gay men -- I see no reason why straight people should be any more likely to be sex offenders than gay people. )

Sexual assault doesn't need to involve any sexual attraction at all on the part of the perpetrator -- research with convicted sex offenders has shown it is often entirely about anger/hatred and/or a desire to dominate the victim.

Also, women can harrass, abuse and assault other women -- and the sexuality of the perpetrator and the victim can be anything.

E.g. a man is sexually assaulted, he reports it to the police, but the woman who assaulted him says, "no, he assaulted me" in her defence

Or a man reports it to the police and they laugh at him, shame him for not liking it ([sarcasm]because men are so obsessed with sex that we would never say no to having it under any circumstances -- unless of course it was with another man, because obviously homosexual males don't count[/sarcasm]), and/or for not simply fighting off the women who assaulted him, or just ignore his report.

Lots of men who are assaulted by women feel ashamed just because they didn't like the assault -- they think they should have liked it, and that there's something wrong with them because they didn't.

Many straight men who are assaulted by other men are afraid that what happened to them makes them gay, or that other people will think they are gay now (or that the assault happened because they must be secretly gay). And this can be a reason they don't report it, and may never even tell anyone.

Gay guys who are sexually assaulted by other men (this also applies to gay women sexually assaulted by other women, and to reporting and getting help for non-sexual domestic violence in same-sex couples) typically fear homophobic mistreatment and ridicule from police and anyone else involved in the process of reporting or seeking help. Sometimes they also end up feeling a sense of self-hatred and questioning whether this happened to them because they are gay.

I do think that sexual harrassment is more a problem for women than it is for men because women having equal rights as persons in the laws of Western societies is a very new thing. So new that those legally enshrined rights are still often not followed in the real world, and often not reflected in the people's attitudes and ideas about gender roles and sexuality......

So new that many boys are still raised/socialized to believe that sexual aggression towards women is not only okay but desirable, and raised to believe that an inherent part of masculinity is being psychologically and physically dominant over others. It's a much smaller number of girls who are raised/socialized with the idea that it's okay or desirable for them to be sexually aggressive towards men or to be psychologically and physically dominant over anyone.

So new that people in positions of authority, like judges, still make headlines (and I wonder, for every instance that makes headlines how many other instances are there that never get reported to anyone?) by basically accusing female victims of being somehow to blame for the sexual assault or harrassment they experienced because of stupid things like how they were dressed at the time it happened.

Anyone can be a victim of sexual harrassment, or sexual or domestic violence . On a fundamental level the problems of sexual harrasment and assault really have nothing to do with gender in that being male or female or any other gender does not instill a person with some innate biological pre-disposition towards harrassing and/or assaulting others, sexually or otherwise. However, the socio-cultural history of Western societies means that women have been (and I believe still are) victims in greater numbers because harrassment and violence against them was socially and legally sanctioned for generations -- men who would otherwise have not been violent or controlling towards women were violent and controlling towards them because that's what they were taught to do.

Everyone deserves support regardless of gender, and someday I suspect that the disparity in the numbers between males and females who experience sexual harrassment, domestic violence, and assault will even out but that hasn't happened yet. (I suspect the gap is already a lot smaller than the statistics would show simply because of under-reporting, but I still believe that women are more often victims.) And until that happens I think it's important to acknowledge that women are dealing with more of this sort of thing than men are.

Your experience as a male victim of domestic violence is no less serious and deserving of sympathy and support than the experiences of a female victim, though. That males are victims less often doesn't change that what happened to you was horrible and wrong.

 

[Major Tom]

Sounds like sexual harassment to me, I am sorry you have to deal with it... This may sound gross or silly, but try letting out a big long fart any time you feel the urge... There is no bigger turn off than farting... At least in my humble opinion. It has worked for me in the past.