Research and Development For Robot Surgeons Should be Perma-Banned

[Theta.G]

As I said, all it would do is put people out of their jobs and waste taxpayer's money.

Ever heard of what might happen in a game such as Detroit: Become Human. In that game, you see humans on the streets of Detroit because androids took their jobs. Plus, some of the androids in that game have gone against their programming, and then attack, flee from, or even kill their owners. Sorry, but what you call a perfect future seems like a depressing hellscape to me.

So your belief is based on what you seen in a videogame...
Robotics and A.I are different things.
Games and television shows, movies. Skew perception. Morph beliefs and opinions. As with everything there will be good and bad aspects. When robotic surgical ... things. are pursued a number of people may die in the testing stage. They might be hackable. whatever. Perhaps there's an IF statement that wasn't programmed in. Someone dies, it gets programmed in.

Spoiler

The death of 1 is a tragedy...
The death of 1 is a tragedy...
The death of 1 is a tragedy...
The death of a millions JUST-A-STA-TIS-TIC

You know what else might happen. More lives may be saved because of this. Less people may die. Surgeries may be more efficient. Other conditions may be picked up on that a human wouldn't be able to since critical thought is in rare supply. Just because authority figures are authority figures and project an aura of confidence doesn't mean they have it.

 

[Mr Allen]

Robot surgeons? How about no? I've possibly got to have an Op next year to have my cataracts removed, do I want it done by a Robot? No way! Even Robots aren't infallible.

 

[Judge]

So it's an excuse by the surgeon to be lazy enough to not being at the operating table doing the surgery and all the steps with his own hands? Wow.

Lazy? No, but perhaps not having the consistent degree of manual dexterity a robot could overcome.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

Surgeons aren’t the ones writing the codes. Also, these things go through extensive testing before ever being allowed near a living breathing thing, let alone a human.

What if you end up getting operated on by a malfunctioning copy? During the gulf war, the British tried adopted a new bullpup assault rifle, the L85, as their standard infantry assault rifle. Guess what, that went through extensive testing to make sure the gun can go through an entire mag dump without jamming, and the thing still jammed constantly. Same with the U.S. militaries early-model M16s.

 

[Bolletje]

So it's an excuse by the surgeon to be lazy enough to not being at the operating table doing the surgery and all the steps with his own hands? Wow.

No. It’s a technique that allows for more precise surgery with smaller incisions. You clearly have no idea how this any of this works. I’d suggest reading up on the subject instead of freaking out about nonsensical things.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

No. It’s a technique that allows for more precise surgery with smaller incisions. You clearly have no idea how this any of this works. I’d suggest reading up on the subject instead of freaking out about nonsensical things.

Then ONLY use it with steps for small incisions. I don't trust it with a full surgical procedure.

 

[Bolletje]

What if you end up getting operated on by a malfunctioning copy?

I think you’re confusing sci-fi with real life.

 

[Judge]

What if you end up getting operated on by a malfunctioning copy? During the gulf war, the British tried adopted a new bullpup assault rifle, the L85, as their standard infantry assault rifle. Guess what, that went through extensive testing to make sure the gun can go through an entire mag dump without jamming, and the thing still jammed constantly. Same with the U.S. militaries early-model M16s.

The manufacture of firearms are not held to the level of liability of medical products or malpractice considerations.

Gun Industry Immunity | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

 

[Theta.G]

Having been an insurance underwriter for nearly 20 years, I can assure you I was very much aware of any number of manifestations of professional malpractice exposures. Sadly beginning with my own grandmother who died from medical malpractice.
ind of tech isn't meant for tomorrow. Think long term.

My condolences.

 

[Autistamatic]

Ever heard of a multi-disciplined team? Expert surgeons and programmers work together on such projects. I see the point you're trying to make but there simply is no comparison between game development and the creation of the technologies under discussion. You're comparing apples to oranges, to coin a phrase.
Ever been on a plane? You'd have been at the mercy of not only the autopilot but also hundreds of thousands of individual components that all have to be quality checked, and work together correctly for it to get off the ground let alone stay airborne and land safely. Air crashes and failures are incredibly rare, but occasionally tragedies do happen. You are still a lot safer ion a plane than in a car though, with fallible human drivers all around you, each one capable of making a fatal mistake.

 

[Graphin]

Here I have no idea whether you are talking about
Surgeon operated robots?
The robot doing some automated tasks?
A professionally supervised AI surgery?
Autonomous surgeons?

What? Common surgeries, common procedures of surgeries?

The AI is still not aware, has no emotions or will, so detroit become human shouldn't be relevant yet.
Games are much more scripted, and have low stakes. There are other branches of software that are much more reliable with things like that. It is not very difficult to make much more robust algorithms and NNs, but why would they, especially considering the additional power needs.
Unlike games too, there is often not much of a need for real time decision making, and none of those decisions are probably final.

Apart from that, it was proven many times that AI can already be much more reliable in some tasks.
Humans are very prone to errors, and we already often get second class surgeons, partially due to time constraints.

If the robots prove to have significantly higher reliability and not do the decision making, which may already be possible, I'm for it -
IF, which will not happen, the technology is open source and unpatented, not monopolized to a company

 

[Judge]

Here I have no idea whether you are talking about
Surgeon operated robots?
The robot doing some automated tasks?
A professionally supervised AI surgery?
Autonomous surgeons?

What? Common surgeries, common procedures of surgeries?

da Vinci Surgery | Robotic-Assisted Surgery

 

[Joshua the Writer]

The manufacturer of firearms are not held to the level of liability of medical products or malpractice considerations.

Gun Industry Immunity | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

I'm talking about military firearms, designed for people who use them in more-likely-than-not fast-paced combat and harsh conditions. You wouldn't want to be an American or British soldier, and then your gun suddenly jams in the most dangerous time. Especially if you're clearing a jam, and then a terrorist rushes you with his basically never-jamming AK-47 or AK-74.

 

[Judge]

I'm talking about military firearms, designed for people who use them in more-likely-than-not fast-paced combat and harsh conditions. You wouldn't want to be an American or British soldier, and then your gun suddenly jams in the most dangerous time. Especially if you're clearing a jam, and then a terrorist rushes you with his basically never-jamming AK-47 or AK-74.

The law is indifferent to military versus civilian gun manufacturing. A fully automatic Colt M-4 or its civilian semi-automatic version, doesn't matter. Though in the case of the government as a client and a manufacturer as a defense contractor, it can have disastrous results in the event of products liability concerns.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

Ever heard of a multi-disciplined team? Expert surgeons and programmers work together on such projects. I see the point you're trying to make but there simply is no comparison between game development and the creation of the technologies under discussion. You're comparing apples to oranges, to coin a phrase.
Ever been on a plane? You'd have been at the mercy of not only the autopilot but also hundreds of thousands of individual components that all have to be quality checked, and work together correctly for it to get off the ground let alone stay airborne and land safely. Air crashes and failures are incredibly rare, but occasionally tragedies do happen. You are still a lot safer ion a plane than in a car though, with fallible human drivers all around you, each one capable of making a fatal mistake.

I'm not sure. I'm still skeptical. I hope that if I do end up needing to get operated on, I have the option of getting a surgery from either a human or robotic surgeon.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

The law is indifferent to military versus civilian gun manufacturing. A fully automatic Colt M-4 or its civilian semi-automatic version, doesn't matter.

Still, I'm pretty sure that, even though there isn't an official law about it, the military does regulate the quality of firearms that they bring into standard issue. Also, the M4 is burst-fire, not full-auto. The M4A1 is full-auto, tho.

 

[Judge]

Still, I'm pretty sure that, even though there isn't an official law about it, the military does regulate the quality of firearms that they bring into standard issue.

I covered that. The Pentagon can make a big stink if your products aren't up to snuff...whether a rifle or the Marine Corps' Bell Boeing V-22 "Osprey". Without ever seeking a legal remedy in court. Different forms of leverage in play contractually speaking.

Though in the case of the government as a client and a manufacturer as a defense contractor, it can have disastrous results in the event of products liability concerns.

 

[Autistamatic]

The weapons industry is not regulated like medicine is, as already pointed out. Weapons manufacturers don't get sued with class action suits when guns jam and a squaddie gets killed so they don't care unless it affects the likelihood of the next government contract. Armies will still buy their guns providing the losses are "acceptable" and the politicians sending them to war don't care either. Dead squaddies are collateral damage to them. If they cared one bit they'd not start wars in the first place. If a surgical system were to have a fatality record even close to that of human surgeons it would never hit the market.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

The weapons industry is not regulated like medicine is, as already pointed out. Weapons manufacturers don't get sued with class action suits when guns jam and a squaddie gets killed so they don't care unless it affects the likelihood of the next government contract. Armies will still buy their guns providing the losses are "acceptable" and the politicians sending them to war don't care either. Dead squaddies are collateral damage to them. If they cared one bit they'd not start wars in the first place. If a surgical system were to have a fatality record even close to that of human surgeons it would never hit the market.

Dude, the military DOES care about quality control in their guns. We wouldn't even be able to know that the guns were a bit crappy to begin with if the soldiers wouldn't be able to file complaints about the firearms.

 

[Judge]

Dude, the military DOES care about quality control in their guns. We wouldn't even be able to know that the guns were a bit crappy to begin with if the soldiers wouldn't be able to file complaints about the firearms.

Government DOD procurement isn't an exact process of the best weapon for the best purpose. More often than not, it's based on a contractor's lowest bid.

"The Army eventually picked the Beretta as the winner of the competition, later designed the M9, apparently on cost grounds—the Italian company’s total bid was three million less than their Swiss-German competitors. Beretta cut its price to the “bare bones” price of $178.50, way down from the street price of $600 civilians paid, while Sig Sauer cut from $620 to $176.33. While the Sig was the cheaper handgun, it also quoted higher costs for magazines and spare parts, boosting the overall cost of the acquisition."

In essence while the Pentagon isn't apt to select the worst of choices, they're more prone not to select the best predominantly based on cost.

Sig Sauer P226 vs. Beretta 92L: Which Is the Better Gun?

Soldiers' complaints? You better read about the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey. Not all the procurement decisions of the Pentagon are good ones. With some approaching the level of a major scandal.

V-22 Osprey: A Flying Shame?