North American & Canadian Martyrs

[Greatshield17]

Well the sun has set here this evening and by the time most of you see this, it will no longer be September 26th. But none the less, after praying and thinking about this for most of the week (albeit, not as much as I would have liked to.) I've decided to post this; with this date being the most appropriate one to post this thread on.

Now, this doesn't have to be controversial and I'm not seeking it to be, I definitely do not want rock things on this forum site, my favourite forum site; and I'm not seeking drama here, even though I'm sounding like it as I type this. All this could end in one page or four posts, it all depends on how things go. Considering a lot of people are on here aren't from North America, it may-well go that way.

But getting to main question, a question about something that's personal to me, it's simply this; what are your thoughts on the Canadian Martyrs, also known as the North American Martyrs, Saint John de Brebeuf, Saint Issac Jogues and their Companions, what are your thoughts on them?

 

[Rasputin]

Well the sun has set here this evening and by the time most of you see this, it will no longer be September 26th. But none the less, after praying and thinking about this for most of the week (albeit, not as much as I would have liked to.) I've decided to post this; with this date being the most appropriate one to post this thread on.

Now, this doesn't have to be controversial and I'm not seeking it to be, I definitely do not want rock things on this forum site, my favourite forum site; and I'm not seeking drama here, even though I'm sounding like it as I type this. All this could end in one page or four posts, it all depends on how things go. Considering a lot of people are on here aren't from North America, it may-well go that way.

But getting to main question, a question about something that's personal to me, it's simply this; what are your thoughts on the Canadian Martyrs, also known as the North American Martyrs, Saint John de Brebeuf, Saint Issac Jogues and their Companions, what are your thoughts on them?

They sound very important, but I have never heard of them. Therefore I have no thoughts of the Canadian or North American Martyrs.

Now please explain who they were, what they did, and what you think about them. Then I might be able to comment based upon what you share.

 

[Greatshield17]

They sound very important, but I have never heard of them. Therefore I have no thoughts of the Canadian or North American Martyrs.

Now please explain who they were, what they did, and what you think about them. Then I might be able to comment based upon what you share.

Sorry it took me so long to answer this, I've been having a rough morning.

The Canadian Martyrs were Jesuit Missionaries and their lay assistants (called donnés) who were brought to the French colony of Canada, to evangelize the surrounding natives. Their focus was primarily on the Wyandot or Huron people because of their alliance with the French, large size in territory and because there a settled people who were skilled in agriculture and had a more sophisticated socio-political structure.

The Jesuits headed to Wyandot territory and set-up their Mission of Sainte-Marie Among the Hurons and lived among them, learning their language and custom. After a long time the first converts step forward, a married couple by the names of Chiwatenhwa and Aonetta. To the amazement of the missionaries the two had shunned polygamy, and were living monogamous relationship long before the Jesuits arrived; they were baptized Joseph Chiwatenhwa and Marie Aonetta. Later on, a chief by the name Ahatistari converted, he claimed that long before the missionaries had arrived, he sensed a Spirit assisting him in battle, that was not like any of the spirits known by the Huron; he was baptized Eustace Ahatistari.

Throughout their time there however, the Jesuits experienced many difficulties, the two that would ultimately lead to their martyrdom were the natives' suspicion that the Jesuits were sorcerers, and the ongoing war between the Huron and Iroquois. Wyandote were suspicious of the missionaries, they suspected that missionaries were not just responsible for smallpox, but also for other diseases and famines among their nation. One morning Joseph Chiwatenhwa was actually found dead with a gory wound to the back of his skull, the traditional way in which sorcerers are executed among the Wyandot people. Later on, on a canoe voyage back from New France, Eustace Ahatisari, accompanied by the Jesuit, Saint Isaac Jogues and a donné, Saint René Goupil, were ambushed by a group of Iroquois and taken prisoner. They were paraded through the Iroquois villages and tortured, eventually being brought to the Mohawk village of Ossernenon near modern-day Auriesville, New York; Eustace Ahatistari suffered a painful execution but Sts. Isaac Jogues and René Goupil were kept alive because the Iroquois believed they could gain ransom from the French for them.

However the Iroquois were even more suspicious the missionaries than the Hurons were, they had contact with the Protestant Dutch colonists, who convinced them that missionaries were indeed sorcerers, and that certain of their practices were in fact spells and hexes. One day after saying Rosary with Isaac Jogues, René Goupil came accross a young Mohawk boy and taught him the Sign of the Cross; an elder, upon witnessing the event killed him; the Dutch had told the Iroquois that the Sign of the was one of their magic spells. Later on, St. Isaac Jogues was able to escape the Mohawks and make it all the way back to Europe; and then returned and made it all the way back to the very village he was held captive in, where he was eventually martyred. (There is a lot to this whole story that I'm omitting.)

Eventually the Iroquois were able to win the war and conquer the Wyandote's territory. The rest of the missionaries were martyred around this time, some were killed out in the open; others were captured and suffered a slow painful execution, they endured it in true martyrs' style to the amazement of the Iroquois warriors.

So that's sort of the outline of the Canadian Martyrs, (unfortunately it was way longer, length-wise and time-wise then I wanted it to be.) I can go into more detail if you like. I want to ad as a quick side note that Joseph Chihwatenha, Marie Aonetta, and Eustace Ahatistari have not yet been canonized and I'm actually planning looking into advancing their cause for canonization.

 

[Rasputin]

Sorry it took me so long to answer this, I've been having a rough morning.

The Canadian Martyrs were Jesuit Missionaries and their lay assistants (called donnés) who were brought to the French colony of Canada, to evangelize the surrounding natives. Their focus was primarily on the Wyandot or Huron people because of their alliance with the French, large size in territory and because there a settled people who were skilled in agriculture and had a more sophisticated socio-political structure.

The Jesuits headed to Wyandot territory and set-up their Mission of Sainte-Marie Among the Hurons and lived among them, learning their language and custom. After a long time the first converts step forward, a married couple by the names of Chiwatenhwa and Aonetta. To the amazement of the missionaries the two had shunned polygamy, and were living monogamous relationship long before the Jesuits arrived; they were baptized Joseph Chiwatenhwa and Marie Aonetta. Later on, a chief by the name Ahatistari converted, he claimed that long before the missionaries had arrived, he sensed a Spirit assisting him in battle, that was not like any of the spirits known by the Huron; he was baptized Eustace Ahatistari.

Throughout their time there however, the Jesuits experienced many difficulties, the two that would ultimately lead to their martyrdom were the natives' suspicion that the Jesuits were sorcerers, and the ongoing war between the Huron and Iroquois. Wyandote were suspicious of the missionaries, they suspected that missionaries were not just responsible for smallpox, but also for other diseases and famines among their nation. One morning Joseph Chiwatenhwa was actually found dead with a gory wound to the back of his skull, the traditional way in which sorcerers are executed among the Wyandot people. Later on, on a canoe voyage back from New France, Eustace Ahatisari, accompanied by the Jesuit, Saint Isaac Jogues and a donné, Saint René Goupil, were ambushed by a group of Iroquois and taken prisoner. They were paraded through the Iroquois villages and tortured, eventually being brought to the Mohawk village of Ossernenon near modern-day Auriesville, New York; Eustace Ahatistari suffered a painful execution but Sts. Isaac Jogues and René Goupil were kept alive because the Iroquois believed they could gain ransom from the French for them.

However the Iroquois were even more suspicious the missionaries than the Hurons were, they had contact with the Protestant Dutch colonists, who convinced them that missionaries were indeed sorcerers, and that certain of their practices were in fact spells and hexes. One day after saying Rosary with Isaac Jogues, René Goupil came accross a young Mohawk boy and taught him the Sign of the Cross; an elder, upon witnessing the event killed him; the Dutch had told the Iroquois that the Sign of the was one of their magic spells. Later on, St. Isaac Jogues was able to escape the Mohawks and make it all the way back to Europe; and then returned and made it all the way back to the very village he was held captive in, where he was eventually martyred. (There is a lot to this whole story that I'm omitting.)

Eventually the Iroquois were able to win the war and conquer the Wyandote's territory. The rest of the missionaries were martyred around this time, some were killed out in the open; others were captured and suffered a slow painful execution, they endured it in true martyrs' style to the amazement of the Iroquois warriors.

So that's sort of the outline of the Canadian Martyrs, (unfortunately it was way longer, length-wise and time-wise then I wanted it to be.) I can go into more detail if you like. I want to ad as a quick side note that Joseph Chihwatenha, Marie Aonetta, and Eustace Ahatistari have not yet been canonized and I'm actually planning looking into advancing their cause for canonization.

That was a very good and concise summary. I see nothing controversial about this. The Dutch were the real bad characters who misled igmorant native savages, enticing them into killing the Jesuit missionaries.

I appreciate history, and think your cause is noble.

 

[Greatshield17]

That was a very good and concise summary. I see nothing controversial about this. The Dutch were the real bad characters who misled igmorant native savages, enticing them into killing the Jesuit missionaries.

I appreciate history, and think your cause is noble.

Well some people are concerned about the Jesuits involvement in the fall of Huronia, they believe they may have contributed to it because of smallpox, and how they effected the relations between the Hurons and French. (ie, the French being reluctant to give guns to the Hurons because they were afraid they'd shoot their missionaries.) But there were a lot more factors at play here, and it's difficult to criticize the missionaries themselves, let alone the Wyandot people who believed.

 

[Rasputin]

Well some people are concerned about the Jesuits involvement in the fall of Huronia, they believe they may have contributed to it because of smallpox, and how they effected the relations between the Hurons and French. (ie, the French being reluctant to give guns to the Hurons because they were afraid they'd shoot their missionaries.) But there were a lot more factors at play here, and it's difficult to criticize the missionaries themselves, let alone the Wyandot people who believed.

People will believe what they want. You seemed objective in laying out the facts. Based on my understanding of the facts, the Jesuits intentions were honorable.

 

[VictorR]

I have to say I'm not particularly familiar with them, though I do recognize some names of the era, like Saints John de Brebeuf, Kateri Tekakwitha, and Marie de la Incarnation, the latter two of which were honoured on a stamp when they were beatified.

Have you had the chance to watch Black Robe?

It's historical fiction set in the era, and contrary to complaints of its depiction of violence, it's actually toned down.

 

[Greatshield17]

Have you had the chance to watch Black Robe?

It's historical fiction set in the era, and contrary to complaints of its depiction of violence, it's actually toned down.

No I haven't, sounds very interesting.

 

[MrSpock]

I'm a first-generation Canadian, my parents are English.

Politics concerning Natives here are complicated at the moment. Some of them are in bad situations fairly directly due to how they've been treated by people of European ancestry. Some of them are actually pretty well off, and still enjoy rights that most Canadians do not. It can be a controversial topic.

I've not heard of these particular missionaries before. For years, it has been unpopular to suggest that what Europeans did to the natives here was for their own good, and even a year ago you would not be likely to get much in the way of support for these people from Canadians. In North America at the moment there are statues of white people from previous centuries that are being taken down.

I doubt many Western Canadians would care to honour these missionaries. Perhaps you'd get more sympathy from Quebecers. They're mostly Catholic and tend to see things differently from other Canadians on some topics (those are two separate things). Not sure how religious Quebecers are, there are a lot of atheists in Canada.

 

[Rasputin]

I'm a first-generation Canadian, my parents are English.

Sounds a lot like the situation in the United States.
Politics concerning Natives here are complicated at the moment. Some of them are in bad situations fairly directly due to how they've been treated by people of European ancestry. Some of them are actually pretty well off, and still enjoy rights that most Canadians do not. It can be a controversial topic.

I've not heard of these particular missionaries before. For years, it has been unpopular to suggest that what Europeans did to the natives here was for their own good, and even a year ago you would not be likely to get much in the way of support for these people from Canadians. In North America at the moment there are statues of white people from previous centuries that are being taken down.

I doubt many Western Canadians would care to honour these missionaries. Perhaps you'd get more sympathy from Quebecers. They're mostly Catholic and tend to see things differently from other Canadians on some topics (those are two separate things). Not sure how religious Quebecers are, there are a lot of atheists in Canada.

 

[Judge]

I'm a first-generation Canadian, my parents are English.

Politics concerning Natives here are complicated at the moment.

Indeed.

Louis Riel - Wikipedia

Riel (film) - Wikipedia

 

[Joshua the Writer]

I never actually ever heard of those people, so I can't tell you.

 

[Greatshield17]

I doubt many Western Canadians would care to honour these missionaries. Perhaps you'd get more sympathy from Quebecers. They're mostly Catholic and tend to see things differently from other Canadians on some topics (those are two separate things). Not sure how religious Quebecers are, there are a lot of atheists in Canada.

Unfortunately Catholicism is more of cultural thing there than a religious thing. In fact I actually heard that there are more American immigrants there than native-born Quebecers and the language and culture as a whole is on the decline, at least in major cities.

Indeed.

Louis Riel - Wikipedia

Riel (film) - Wikipedia

Yeah, Louis Riel is very complex, controversial and fascinating figure; even I am not 100% what to make of him.

 

[Judge]

Yeah, Louis Riel is very complex, controversial and fascinating figure; even I am not 100% what to make of him.

Agreed. It's why I mentioned him, yet have no decisive opinion of the man or his actions. Though dedicated resistance of indigenous people against their oppressors has always interested me, being of both European and Native American bloodlines.

 

[Greatshield17]

Now, this doesn't have to be controversial and I'm not seeking it to be, I definitely do not want rock things on this forum site, my favourite forum site; and I'm not seeking drama here, even though I'm sounding like it as I type this. All this could end in one page or four posts, it all depends on how things go. Considering a lot of people are on here aren't from North America, it may-well go that way.

But getting to main question, a question about something that's personal to me, it's simply this; what are your thoughts on the Canadian Martyrs, also known as the North American Martyrs, Saint John de Brebeuf, Saint Issac Jogues and their Companions, what are your thoughts on them?

Well some people are concerned about the Jesuits involvement in the fall of Huronia, they believe they may have contributed to it because of smallpox, and how they effected the relations between the Hurons and French. (ie, the French being reluctant to give guns to the Hurons because they were afraid they'd shoot their missionaries.) But there were a lot more factors at play here, and it's difficult to criticize the missionaries themselves, let alone the Wyandot people who believed.

I don’t want to sound hostile or melodramatic, but due to recent happenings on this forum site, I think now is the time to explain now why I am inspired by the Martyrs.

At my secular college, I took both a Canadian History course and an Indigenous History course. I had the same instructor for both of those courses and he, (as well as a lot of the students at that college) had a specific, strong left-wing bent, and negative view of the Faith. This instructor touched on the Martyrs in both the Canadian and Indigenous History courses, the first time he touched on them was during the Canadian History course; I took this course before I reverted to the Faith. The instructor bashed the missionaries for the things I quoted above, and the general view that the Catholic Faith is bigoted and the like; but when he touched on the Martyrs themselves and their Martyrdoms, I noticed that his tone changed, there was something in his voice that I noticed but couldn’t quite identify. When I took the Indigenous History class, I had then reverted to the Faith, and I was then picking up more, the hostility towards the Faith that was present at that college. When the instructor touched on the Martyrs this time, once again his tone changed when he mentioned their actual Martyrdoms, I picked up again that odd feeling I got in his voice, and this time I recognized what the feeling was, fear. The instructor was scared, scared by these Saints’ Martyrdoms!

Why was the instructor scared of these acts of Martyrdom? Well, I think it’s because it demolishes the whole left-wing view of the Evangelization of the Indigenous Peoples; here we have Catholics laying-down their lives for the Evangelization of the Native population, that means they truly believe in what they claim to be doing, they truly believe they’re saving these peoples’ souls, they’re not doing it to steal their land, conquer them, dominate them, degrade them or the like, they’re doing it out of Love for God and Love of neighbour for God’s sake. As that slowly sunk-in on me, I began to really appreciate the Canadian Martyrs and their example, today the Left bashes the Church as hateful, bigoted, promoting “mult-racial whiteness,” and basically just plain evil; yet the acts of the Canadian Martyrs defies and utterly destroys that belief, these men had the temerity to die rather than give up their efforts to bring the Gospel to these people.

So that’s why I’m inspired by these Martyrs and hope and pray to have a zeal like theirs. I don’t seek Martyrdom, I don’t know what the future holds me and I do believe that the vast majority of people on this site hold know ill-will against me if not my Faith. But I do want to have a zeal like theirs’, I want a zeal that destroys others belief that I am acting out of hatred and bigotry as opposed to genuine conviction. I still have a long way to go before I get to that level of holiness but I’ll keep working and striving.

¡Viva Cristo Rey
Y
La Reina de los Martires!

 

[Starfire]

igmorant native savages

I presume by this racist and outrageous comment you’re referring to Indigenous first nation people?

 

[Mia]

The Canadian Martyrs were Jesuit Missionaries and their lay assistants (called donnés) who were brought to the French colony of Canada, to evangelize the surrounding natives. Their focus was primarily on the Wyandot or Huron people because of their alliance with the French, large size in territory and because there a settled people who were skilled in agriculture and had a more sophisticated socio-political structure.

The Jesuits headed to Wyandot territory and set-up their Mission of Sainte-Marie Among the Hurons and lived among them, learning their language and custom. After a long time the first converts step forward, a married couple by the names of Chiwatenhwa and Aonetta. To the amazement of the missionaries the two had shunned polygamy, and were living monogamous relationship long before the Jesuits arrived; they were baptized Joseph Chiwatenhwa and Marie Aonetta. Later on, a chief by the name Ahatistari converted, he claimed that long before the missionaries had arrived, he sensed a Spirit assisting him in battle, that was not like any of the spirits known by the Huron; he was baptized Eustace Ahatistari.

My relatives through marriage are Huron/Wendat and the tale that you tell is neither the truth nor a history of the Huron/Wendat people; it is a contrived fallacy. I heard their true oral history which was recounted by their elders.

...Strange weak men came into our camps and territory and could not speak our language, they could not hunt or use a canoe, and the villagers gave them food, they knew nothing of our ways. We thought they were traders, as they spoke french and we traded with the french. They had no clothing to survive the winter. They built structures not like our longhouses. We helped them with food and clothing. We helped them survive the winter...... they would have died as they seemed stupid and weak.....Many wanted to kill them.....

People in the villages began to become sick from strange sicknesses.
{Prior to 1600, the Huron-Wendat numbered about 20,000 to 25,000 people, but between 1634 and 1642 they were reduced to about 9,000 by a series of epidemics particularly measles, influenza and smallpox} Brought by your saintly Jesuit missionaries. As people died from these diseases, the jesuit missionaries baptized them. Those dying people were their first unwilling and others later their unwitting converts.

Three hundred catholic converts who could no longer defend their homeland of Huronia/Wendake from other warring native tribes, such as the Haudenosaunee confederacy left and eventually settled in Canada. Some of the Huron became the Wyandottes of Oklahoma, other survivors integrated into other tribes as they fled the sicknesses of their homeland.

Your sainted missionaries decimated all but a few thousand of the Huron-Wendat nation. They are no longer celebrated, they lost their land, way of life and territory and are still attempting to reclaim their lost customs and language.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

My Husband is Huron/Wendat and the tale that you tell is neither the truth nor a history of the Huron/Wendat people it is fallacy. I know and understand their oral history which was recounted to by their elders when I was accepted into their clan and tribe when I married.

Strange weak men came into our camps and territory and could not speak our language, they could not hunt or use a canoe, and the village gave them food, they knew nothing of our ways. We thought they were traders, as they spoke french and we traded with the french. They had no clothing to survive the winter. They built structures not like our longhouses. We helped them with food and clothing. We helped them survive the winter...... they would have died as they seemed stupid and weak.....Many wanted to kill them.....

People in the villages began to become sick from strange sicknesses. {Prior to 1600, the Huron-Wendat numbered about 20,000 to 25,000 people, but between 1634 and 1642 they were reduced to about 9,000 by a series of epidemics particularly measles, influenza and smallpox} Brought by your saintly Jesuit missionaries.
As people lay dying from these diseases, the Jesuit missionaries baptized them.
Those dying people were their first unwilling converts.

Three hundred catholic converts who could no longer defend their homeland of Huronia from other warring Iroquoian tribes, such as the Haudenosaunee left and eventually settled where I live now. Some of the Huron became the Wyandottes of Oklahoma, other survivors integrated into other tribes as they fled the sicknesses of their homelands.

Your wonderful sainted missionaries decimated all but a few thousand of the Huron-Wendat nation. They are not celebrated here. They lost their land, way of life and territory, they are still attempting to reclaim their lost customs and language.

Yeah. Christian missionaries dealt untold amounts of damage to Native tribes in basically anywhere in the Americas. I hate the fact that people still do Christian missionary trips to native American tribal reserves, as well. I don't like mission trips in general, either, since they target 3rd world countries that are pagan and where the internet is not widespread, so they can't research Christianity on their own, so they end up doing something that gives them false hope.

 

[Greatshield17]

My Husband is Huron/Wendat and the tale that you tell is neither the truth nor a history of the Huron/Wendat people; it is fallacy. I know and understand their oral history which was recounted to me by their elders when I was accepted into their clan and tribe when I married.

Strange weak men came into our camps and territory and could not speak our language, they could not hunt or use a canoe, and the village gave them food, they knew nothing of our ways. We thought they were traders, as they spoke french and we traded with the french. They had no clothing to survive the winter. They built structures not like our longhouses. We helped them with food and clothing. We helped them survive the winter...... they would have died as they seemed stupid and weak.....Many wanted to kill them.....

People in the villages began to become sick from strange sicknesses. {Prior to 1600, the Huron-Wendat numbered about 20,000 to 25,000 people, but between 1634 and 1642 they were reduced to about 9,000 by a series of epidemics particularly measles, influenza and smallpox} Brought by your saintly Jesuit missionaries.
As people lay dying from these diseases, the Jesuit missionaries baptized them.
Those dying people were their first unwilling converts.

Three hundred catholic converts who could no longer defend their homeland of Huronia/Wendake from other warring Iroquoian tribes, such as the Haudenosaunee left and eventually settled where I live now. Some of the Huron became the Wyandottes of Oklahoma, other survivors integrated into other tribes as they fled the sicknesses of their homelands.

Your wonderful sainted missionaries decimated all but a few thousand of the Huron-Wendat nation. They are not celebrated here. They lost their land, way of life and territory, they are still attempting to reclaim their lost customs and language.

The Huron Catholics Chief Eustace Ahatisitari, Joseph Chihwatenwha and Marie Aonetta, were real people who loved the Faith. It is a well-documented fact that smallpox can reach Indigenous villages long before any European ever sets foot in them, the Hurons would’ve just as likely suffered the same fate without the heroic Martyrs coming there to preform the oh so horrible act of saving their souls; setting aside the obvious fact that the Martyrs wouldn’t be culpable for having the disease anyways.

 

[Greatshield17]

Yeah. Christian missionaries dealt untold amounts of damage to Native tribes in basically anywhere in the Americas. I hate the fact that people still do Christian missionary trips to native American tribal reserves, as well. I don't like mission trips in general, either, since they target 3rd world countries that are pagan and where the internet is not widespread, so they can't research Christianity on their own, so they end up doing something that gives them false hope.

Yep, the Catholic Faith destroys cultures, just like my ancestors the Basque; yeah, they were able to avoid conquest by the Romans but when missionaries arrived it was all over. Their unique Pre-Indo-European language didn’t diversify into several unique dialects, nope, it simply ceased to exist, because that’s what missionaries do. And they didn’t establish their own independent kingdom for a time, the Kingdom of Navarre, nope they were simply crushed by the missionaries. The reason I can’t learn my ancestral language is not because I can’t find the time needed to set aside and learn it, it’s simply because the missionaries wiped it all out.

By the way, the next time you’re on the west coast, why don’t you find some Filipino priests (trust me, there are plenty here) and talk to them about how the Spanish missionaries ruined their culture.