Male vs. Female Aspies

[Kit Hunter]

Hello all,

Having researched a lot on the typical behaviors and so-called symptoms of Asperger's/ASD and come across the mention of how such things tend to differ between affected men and women, I was wondering what your thoughts on the matter would be.

In your experience, do you think there is a prevalent difference between the way Asperger's manifests in women as opposed to men? I'm mentioning women specifically because there seems to already be a wealth of information on affected men and nearly as much on children, and I wanted to target the range of "teenage to adult woman."

Furthermore, what do you think are especially significant differences faced by female Aspies? Do you have any personal observations or stories about this? Do you think that women with Asperger's are under-represented or less understood by the general public and if so, what should or can be done about it?

Do you have any advice for female Aspies?

Lastly, summarize your "thinking process" or how you view the world in one sentence?

Thank you.

 

[Tom]

I only have a remotely clear thought on the last bit.

But even that is a muddy combination of two basic philosophies 1) Live and let live. 2) Kill or be killed.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Honestly, I'm finding Asperger's resources to be largely skewed TOWARD women. I'd like to read anything related to male Aspies. Best I've been able to find is this from Rudy Simone:

 

[Tom]

Honestly, I'm finding Asperger's resources to be largely skewed TOWARD women. I'd like to read anything related to male Aspies. Best I've been able to find is this from Rudy Simone:

That seems a fairly good list. Only one item jumped out at me as possibly incorrect, or at least not as distinct. Its the bit about women having obsessions less unusual them men. Over the 2-3 years I have been actively interacting with many Aspies online it seems that women do have as abstruse obsessions, once you learn what they are.

And also, there are already some typical differences in the interests in men and women, both with ASD people as well as NTs. Something I think some people don't think about, or perhaps disagree with, is the idea that we with ASD still possess much, maybe the majority of our basic makeup that is NT. I think of ASD as an customization, an overlay upon a NT chassis.

 

[Progster]

Yes, I do think that there are differences, the most significant being that females are generally better at masking social difficulties than males, and managing in social situations, though as pointed out by Rudy Simone above, this entails acting. This means that they are more often misdiagnosed than males, or their ASD isn't recognised. Thanks to numerous blogs and youtube channels by females on the spectrum, there is more awareness of ASD in females now than there used to be. For me the most difficult thing is the difficulties caused by my not living up to or adhering to gender roles set by society - or generally people having certain unspoken expectations of me that I cannot fulfill or don't want to because they are in conflict with my personality and different way of thinking. Also, feelings of rejection and loneliness. The lack of self-esteem and feelings of failure when I don't succeed.

 

[JKG]

I agree with Progster. Female aspies may be better at "passing" due to social performance skills. And there may be less tolerance given to female aspies because women are expected to be social caretakers. The quiet lone independent man can be seen (at least in the U.S.) as a sort of mysterious respected strong person (think of the cowboy). A less-social female loner is often viewed as a pitiful social reject. And then there's the numbers thing. I am finding it hard to find other ASD women in my community to talk with. It's lonely.

 

[AsheSkyler]

That seems a fairly good list. Only one item jumped out at me as possibly incorrect, or at least not as distinct. Its the bit about women having obsessions less unusual them men. Over the 2-3 years I have been actively interacting with many Aspies online it seems that women do have as abstruse obsessions, once you learn what they are.

And also, there are already some typical differences in the interests in men and women, both with ASD people as well as NTs. Something I think some people don't think about, or perhaps disagree with, is the idea that we with ASD still possess much, maybe the majority of our basic makeup that is NT. I think of ASD as an customization, an overlay upon a NT chassis.

Quite, and then their territory also helps define how weird it is at all. I know quite a few allistic women obsessed with motorcycles, cars, trackers, and general vehicular/drivable machinery.

I also think we all have a lot more in common than many like to admit. In example, we ALL hate tags on clothing!

 

[Harrison]

I think of ASD as an customization, an overlay upon a NT chassis.

That settles it...

My new t-shirt will say "Aspie-Taoist. I pimped this ride"

 

[Tom]

Quite, and then their territory also helps define how weird it is at all. I know quite a few allistic women obsessed with motorcycles, cars, trackers, and general vehicular/drivable machinery.

I also think we all have a lot more in common than many like to admit. In example, we ALL hate tags on clothing!

The absolute worst however are the pins sometimes used in dress shirts. I have tried them on, not realizing they are there until pricked and then felt trapped, unable to take them off...how many pins are there... and where? One false move and

 

[garnetflower13]

Do you have any personal observations or stories about this?

I can't answer all the others, but this question I will have a shot at. My personal observations about being a female on the spectrum, have been that 99% of the time I am disbelieved when I say that I have Asperger's. Or people try to say things like, "OH, I get that way too," when I describe sensory issue or intolerance of prolonged social interactions. I have acted for so long, that now people have a hard time seeing how hard it is for me.

Personal stories; one was that I was temporarily seeing a counselor at the county crisis office (it was free so I decided to try it) and the counselor, an otherwise personable young woman kept doubting that I was on the spectrum. I finally told her that I would be in to see her once more, but that I wouldn't be coming back because I was tired of countering her doubts instead of receiving the support I sought. I have begun to brace myself for the inevitable doubting, and been practicing saying, "It's not up for debate."

 

[Warmheart]

If I am anyone to go by, Rudy Simone has it right about female adults having the tendency to stim in a rather more exuberant fashion. Bouncing, spinning, flapping, twirling, rocking, hopping-- it's irresistible. I suspect I do this at home mostly, though I am sure I must do this in public sometimes, too. The thing is that I am usually unaware I am doing this.

Another factor is the female ability to mollify by briefly smiling, nodding, "Uh-huh.... yes.... oh! Uh-huh...yes..." while we socially have zero idea what is going on. The social script-y thing allows for us to briefly socially cover our butts, then beat a hasty retreat.

 

[GoofKing]

Is it weird then that both my father and I see socializing as some sort of performance and act ? Lately since he's gotten to know me a little better he's been interested in learning more about my Autism and thinks he might have it as well because he can identify with some of my traits and he seems to understand me better than any other family member.

I mean can some of the male and female traits or differences be mixed ? Or maybe at my present age, I learned to catch up to the ever-so-more-smarter female counterpart ? Lol That reminds me of my step cousin who had Asperger's as well and how she seemed to always go on about how girls were smarter than boys XD

 

[Slithytoves]

I've seen some pretty good resources on Aspie women from adolescence to adulthood. What I see almost nothing about is the relatively uncommon "extrovert Aspie" of either sex.

Contrasts between introvert/extrovert Aspies and the fact that so many Aspies have alternative gender/sexual identities make it hard for me to generalize about differences according to biological sex alone. AsheSkyler's list is good and others have made some interesting points, but the more I learn about the sample of Aspies here on AC, the less confident I am in broad characterizations. There are just too many exceptions to create a rule. I do agree that female Aspies can be better at "passing" socially. I also agree that we are often given less latitude in our behavior.

By the statistics vs. what I've found in real life, females seem to be seriously underdiagnosed, so it follows that we would be under-represented. Recent changes to diagnostic criteria will likely exacerbate the problem in the U.S., because females are socialized from childhood in such a way that we quickly adapt ourselves out of easy identification. The way I see it, the only way female Aspies will be better recognized/understood is (1) if more of us make a point of at least seeking formal diagnosis in adulthood, and (2) if we are more open with those around us about having AS.

Thinking process/Worldview: People are much more complicated than we usually try to make them.

 

[AsheSkyler]

The absolute worst however are the pins sometimes used in dress shirts. I have tried them on, not realizing they are there until pricked and then felt trapped, unable to take them off...how many pins are there... and where? One false move and

I very fortunately have not yet met these pins and I hope I never do. Surely that's only when you're being fitted...? What idgit would leave pins in a finished product!?

If I am anyone to go by, Rudy Simone has it right about female adults having the tendency to stim in a rather more exuberant fashion. Bouncing, spinning, flapping, twirling, rocking, hopping-- it's irresistible. I suspect I do this at home mostly, though I am sure I must do this in public sometimes, too. The thing is that I am usually unaware I am doing this.

Another factor is the female ability to mollify by briefly smiling, nodding, "Uh-huh.... yes.... oh! Uh-huh...yes..." while we socially have zero idea what is going on. The social script-y thing allows for us to briefly socially cover our butts, then beat a hasty retreat.

That confirms it. I'm a gay man in a woman's body. It's all fingers and toes for me when I stim, and I just wiggle my eyebrows to pretend like I'm paying attention.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

...And there may be less tolerance given to female aspies because women are expected to be social caretakers. The quiet lone independent man can be seen (at least in the U.S.) as a sort of mysterious respected strong person (think of the cowboy). A less-social female loner is often viewed as a pitiful social reject...

True dat. I took the Big 5 psychometric test and discovered that I'm nicer than most men and not as nice as most women. I suppose I should be happy that this is now "measurable" and therefore discussable, although an attempt to use this to get a recruiter to stop sending me to sexist work environments backfired miserably.

My personal observations about being a female on the spectrum, have been that 99% of the time I am disbelieved when I say that I have Asperger's. Or people try to say things like, "OH, I get that way too," when I describe sensory issue or intolerance of prolonged social interactions...I have begun to brace myself for the inevitable doubting, and been practicing saying, "It's not up for debate."

Garnetflower13, I have exactly the same experiences. I've also asked my counselor to respond to some of my written pieces about what it's like for me, because I want her to declare herself. I've also remarked that since I'm older than she is by a substantial margin, that I'm an excellent person for her to learn from, even though I don't "teach" her.

I've seen some pretty good resources on Aspie women from adolescence to adulthood. What I see almost nothing about is the relatively uncommon "extrovert Aspie" of either sex.

Contrasts between introvert/extrovert Aspies and the fact that so many Aspies have alternative gender/sexual identities make it hard for me to generalize about differences according to biological sex alone. AsheSkyler's list is good and others have made some interesting points, but the more I learn about the sample of Aspies here on AC, the less confident I am in broad characterizations. There are just too many exceptions to create a rule. I do agree that female Aspies can be better at "passing" socially. I also agree that we are often given less latitude in our behavior.

By the statistics vs. what I've found in real life, females seem to be seriously underdiagnosed, so it follows that we would be under-represented. Recent changes to diagnostic criteria will likely exacerbate the problem in the U.S., because females are socialized from childhood in such a way that we quickly adapt ourselves out of easy identification. The way I see it, the only way female Aspies will be better recognized/understood is (1) if more of us make a point of at least seeking formal diagnosis in adulthood, and (2) if we are more open with those around us about having AS.

Painfully inching my way towards this. One ex-boss knows about it, and while he doesn't quite grasp my needs (he thinks, for instance, that I have to "earn" the right to be eccentric), he has grasped the problem of "not being able to think the thought that would tell me to respond, or respond differently, to [a given stimulus]." Case in point: When someone asked me what I thought of a group's new process, I said what I thought. That got back to him as "she's arrogant." When he talked to me about it, I remembered feeling there was a weird silence, but since there wasn't a question, I had nothing to say...my astonishment at the group's assessment was so obvious that he dismissed the comment and went out of his way to protect me from fallout. But he doesn't get some of the other things...I wish I had more time with him.

 

[Nadador]

From what I've found in my fellow members here, manifestations of Asperger's that seem to differ a bit by sex occur mostly as amplifications of sex and gender differences found in the broader population.

As far as relative academic attention is concerned, with the exception of conditions specific to or overwhelmingly associated with women, I think you'd find that there is almost always more documentation of male manifestations than female, reason being that more men fund and execute research. The best cure for that would be for more women to pursue clinical research as a career. Until that happens, women will continue to be underrepresented in clinical literature. What's accepted as true by the medical community, then disseminated for public consumption, becomes the basis for public perception.

The suspected incidence of Asperger's is heavily skewed toward males [estimated as high as 5 to 1], and is widely believed by Aspies to be grossly inaccurate. This discrepancy might occur because males may present more obviously from a young age, leading more parents to pursue diagnosis. Simon Baron-Cohen's theory of Asperger's as the "extreme male brain" notwithstanding, males may not be as well-equipped as women to deal with neurodiversity, for a number of social, psychological, and biological reasons.

If I could summarise my thinking process or world view in one sentence, that would be a clear signal I need to re-evaluate them.

 

[Tom]

I very fortunately have not yet met these pins and I hope I never do. Surely that's only when you're being fitted...? What idgit would leave pins in a finished product!?

Men's dress shirts often have pins in them to hold the folds so they look good in the package. At the neck, sides and sometimes cuffs. If you put it on without noticing its like wearing a Permanent Press Iron Maiden. I guess girl clothes are always on a rack. At least I haven't run into pins in pants.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Men's dress shirts often have pins in them to hold the folds so they look good in the package. At the neck, sides and sometimes cuffs. If you put it on without noticing its like wearing a Permanent Press Iron Maiden. I guess girl clothes are always on a rack. At least I haven't run into pins in pants.

Oh goodness, thank you for telling me! I'll look extra sharp for them now when I have to buy a new shirt for my husband.

Pins in pants would be utterly ridiculous. If not a little comical.

The suspected incidence of Asperger's is heavily skewed toward males [estimated as high as 5 to 1], and is widely believed by Aspies to be grossly inaccurate. This discrepancy might occur because males may present more obviously from a young age, leading more parents to pursue diagnosis. Simon Baron-Cohen's theory of Asperger's as the "extreme male brain" notwithstanding, males may not be as well-equipped as women to deal with neurodiversity, for a number of social, psychological, and biological reasons.

Quite! It's been stated both in private documents and research documents that women blend in better, so shouldn't that require they provide some kind of disclaimer like "these are the Pokemon we've indexed thus far" rather than presenting it as a hard number like 4/1?

 

[Annie White]

this video for you all to watch, on this subject. I love this person so much, she just says everything i wish i could.

 

[Julia 27]

I can't answer all the others, but this question I will have a shot at. My personal observations about being a female on the spectrum, have been that 99% of the time I am disbelieved when I say that I have Asperger's. Or people try to say things like, "OH, I get that way too," when I describe sensory issue or intolerance of prolonged social interactions. I have acted for so long, that now people have a hard time seeing how hard it is for me.

Personal stories; one was that I was temporarily seeing a counselor at the county crisis office (it was free so I decided to try it) and the counselor, an otherwise personable young woman kept doubting that I was on the spectrum. I finally told her that I would be in to see her once more, but that I wouldn't be coming back because I was tired of countering her doubts instead of receiving the support I sought. I have begun to brace myself for the inevitable doubting, and been practicing saying, "It's not up for debate."

I know what you mean
The first Psychologist I saw said I had all the hallmarks of AS except I had too much empathy so he said I don't fit the whole test but then went onto say he was not really qualified in the area so could not give a professional diagnosis. I felt unaffirmed and misunderstood.So I went to one that was a registered with the Autism society to give a diagnosis and she said I was AS. I felt happy affirmed and understood. Then this website only makes me feel more normal and not alone. If there was a cure I would not want it I love the way I am my querky ways and empathy and honesty etc etc. I am tied of all the insincere ******** and meaningless conversational rituals that is often a trait of NT's