How do People Recognise Flirting?

[Ylva]

and I'm not even touching upon aspie women in specific, who perhaps by stereotype, can be quite nitpicky.

We can?

Flirting can produced mixed messages or none at all. Another silly social convention IMO.

They supposedly exist to keep things orderly, but at least that one probably started to keep society misogynist. What honest person would make up a system based on lies to complete a mating ritual?

 

[Ereth]

You've had bad luck with dating, yes (I agree about the no-kiss rule), but I don't think that necessarily means men are going to be misconstrued by default.

I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order.

Perhaps you can't see a case for stalking here, but I can. How many times should a person have to say "No, thank you. I'm not interested," for someone to get the hint? Flowers are a nice gift idea when you're already in a relationship, or as a token of affection given to someone you like but haven't formally asked out, but they won't change an existing no---or several, in this case---to a yes.

 

[icesyckel]

"Unless you plan on telling me to piss off, I am going to kiss you now."

What?! Oh my. Any pucker would have went right outta my lips. That is sooooooo NOT romantic. I'd much rather be surprised. (That's all I'm going to say about that.)

I actually agree with you about it not being romantic, and I think most girls would rather be surprised, but I might be thinking wrong. The warning thing came about really in reaction to my buddy in the story above who got campus police called on him. What can I say - I like spontaneity as much as the next romantic, but not enough to risk a police report.

The solution was that I always tried to be as romantic as I could in the delivery (and I didn't actually say "piss off" - more paraphrasing there), which is REALLY challenging when you are "serving notice of intent to kiss." Still, I had better luck issuing a notice than a request with most girls (I think it is a confidence thing - asking just comes across as wimpy). Also, this was only a first kiss thing. You certainly wouldn't keep doing it. Still, I so agree it would be better if we could just be daring without fear of reprisal (a slap isn't so big a deal, but the other options...).

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Ok. I said that that was all I would say about the subject, but I'm back.

"Unless you plan on telling me to piss off, I am going to kiss you now."

The above line is ok - just get rid of the first part, especially "piss off".


"Another girl slapped me HARD, and then apologized saying, "Oh, no - I didn't mean that it was just a reflex I swear." With reflexes like that, imagine the wedding night? I ain't no John Bobbit. She actually was fine with being kissed, but she left a hand print on my face because I surprised her. She made up for it by getting me ice, and she kissed me while holding the ice pack on. I was shocked."

You definitely were going out with the wrong women. Reflex? Sounds like she was more into that (what is it called) S&M? And you stayed after that slap? I really don't get it.


"Bottom line: if you date enough as a guy, then you will probably get slapped sooner or later, even if by accidental reflex."

I have never heard of such a thing. And if this does happen, get up and leave.


"In those few cases where I had misjudged, most ladies were cool enough to just politely tell me I had misread their feelings, which I appreciate in comparison to slaps and more severe alternatives."

This is how I would act and how any REAL, DECENT WOMAN would act.


"I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order."

If a woman turns down a man for a date just once, leave it be and don't ask her out anymore. If she's interested later on in going out with you, then she is going to have to say something. The above guy had asked her TWICE. And definitely don't send flowers or anything else. What the guy did above, would be considered "stalking" to me, as well.

 

[icesyckel]

You've had bad luck with dating, yes (I agree about the no-kiss rule), but I don't think that necessarily means men are going to be misconstrued by default.

I actually agree with you - this is not going to happen "by default." Again, I estimate this sort of thing happened in a minority (say less than 10%) of my personal experiences. However, it only takes one lawsuit or police report to cause serious consequences. I also point out that aspie guys are probably more at risk of misconstruing women's interest than are NT guys.

Perhaps you can't see a case for stalking here, but I can. How many times should a person have to say "No, thank you. I'm not interested," for someone to get the hint? Flowers are a nice gift idea when you're already in a relationship, or as a token of affection given to someone you like but haven't formally asked out, but they won't change an existing no---or several, in this case---to a yes.

There is a fine line between stalking and "going the extra mile" for a girl. I have heard many girls say that they want to be "pursued." It is really hard, as a guy, to know whether she isn't interested or is "playing hard to get" because she wants to see the guy put in some actual effort to win her affections. I know that seems old-fashioned, but some girls are old-fashioned. Others aren't. Again, it can be challenging to tell one from the other, and some guys are brighter (or dimmer) than others in this area. I think it is harder for me since I miss basic gestures/expressions/body language, but I am much better now than I was years ago. I guess, legally, a guy doesn't get to "pursue" a woman anymore unless she tells him to, which I've never heard of happening.

Now, I personally prefer straightforward women who make things perfectly clear. The ones who send mixed signals make it harder to know when a particular lady is actually being straightforward, though. I have had more women in my life than I can count say one thing and then later tell me they meant another. Don't get me wrong - I agree "no means no" and act accordingly, but I have had girls tell me later that they meant something completely opposite what they said in other contexts. I married my wife in part because she is so pleasantly transparent about what she wants, likes, etc.

 

[Ereth]

I realize the thread's been derailed a bit, but I feel this is important to the current discussion (specifically the "Intent Requirement" and "Standard of Fear" sections):

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/docs/src/analyzing-stalking-statute.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I obviously don't know where this case occurred or how it turned out, but the plaintiff likely had the required legal standing to file the suit.

There is a fine line between stalking and "going the extra mile" for a girl.

You've got to be kidding me. A "fine line"? You need to reexamine your definition of "going the extra mile."

It's one thing to try to do something nice for someone you like. Refusing to take no for an answer is another entirely.

 

[icesyckel]

Ok. I said that that was all I would say about the subject, but I'm back.

"Unless you plan on telling me to piss off, I am going to kiss you now."

The above line is ok - just get rid of the first part, especially "piss off".

Yeah, it's been over 6 years since I was on a date (married now), so I don't remember the exact phrasing used. Truth is, I tried different variations, but after my buddy had to talk to campus cops, I never kissed a girl on campus again without issuing some sort of notice/warning/request. After I graduated, I tended to just play by ear.

"Another girl slapped me HARD, and then apologized saying, "Oh, no - I didn't mean that it was just a reflex I swear." With reflexes like that, imagine the wedding night? I ain't no John Bobbit. She actually was fine with being kissed, but she left a hand print on my face because I surprised her. She made up for it by getting me ice, and she kissed me while holding the ice pack on. I was shocked."

You definitely were going out with the wrong women. Reflex? Sounds like she was more into that (what is it called) S&M? And you stayed after that slap? I really don't get it.

I think she just wasn't expecting it. As I said, she got me an icepack (bag of Green Giant frozen green beans actually) and kissed me while holding it on my face, so... I'm a guy. A good make out session is worth a slap in the face. Also, I thought the her kissing me while holding frozen vegetables to my face was kind of romantic in a strange way. Like she was my nurse Course, most nurses don't cause the injuries they treat...

Also, dating for me was a constant exercise in experimenting (not like you think). I don't come by socializing naturally, and dating is like the hardest form of socializing. Dating is to socializing what Everest is to mountain climbing. So, like everything else in life that doesn't come naturally to me, I practiced, experimented, observed, and tweaked my methods until I achieved the desired results. There were more slaps in the earlier phases.

"Bottom line: if you date enough as a guy, then you will probably get slapped sooner or later, even if by accidental reflex."

I have never heard of such a thing. And if this does happen, get up and leave.

Maybe I am the only guy who has been slapped by a lady for an ill-advised kiss, but I doubt it. I mean, say you go on 100 dates before finding that "special someone" and getting married, then is it shocking to think 5 or so will slap you? It's not mathematically significant in context is all I am saying.

"In those few cases where I had misjudged, most ladies were cool enough to just politely tell me I had misread their feelings, which I appreciate in comparison to slaps and more severe alternatives."

This is how I would act and how any REAL, DECENT WOMAN would act.

And it would be wonderful if more women shared your perspective with which I wholeheartedly, 100% agree.

"I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order."

If a woman turns down a man for a date just once, leave it be and don't ask her out anymore. If she's interested later on in going out with you, then she is going to have to say something. The above guy had asked her TWICE. And definitely don't send flowers or anything else. What the guy did above, would be considered "stalking" to me, as well.

I guess that old notion of a guy falling in love with a girl and making a fool of himself trying to woo her despite being rebuffed really is just for sappy movies. In the real world it is just stalking. I used to be sort of a hopeless romantic type, oddly enough. The world we live in so seldom resembles what I consider "romantic," though, that it is hard to get excited by the concept anymore.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

"I have heard many girls say that they want to be "pursued"."

To me "pursued" means that once a man and woman have gone on a few dates, the man still continues to do "dating" things such as dates, flowers, etc. to show interest in doing more than just "casual dating".

I have asked out men before and if they had said "No" or didn't answer me back like my algebra professor did, I take the hint and don't ask them again. For some reason, they weren't interested and it was their loss. Why would I want to keep trying to go out with someone who wasn't interested in me in the first place?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

"I think she just wasn't expecting it. As I said, she got me an icepack (bag of Green Giant frozen green beans actually) and kissed me while holding it on my face, so... I'm a guy. A good make out session is worth a slap in the face."

See? You LIKED it then, right? So why did you gripe about it, like she had done something wrong? The thing with not telling her she shouldn't have done that makes it look ok for women to act that way.

Any Aspie guy reading this, if a woman slaps you and you aren't expecting it (unless you may be into that kinda thing), then get up and leave. IT'S NOT A NORMAL ACTION FROM A MENTALLY STABLE INDIVIDUAL (unless you're into that kinda thing, of course, OR they are having a seizure.)

 

[icesyckel]

I realize the thread's been derailed a bit, but I feel this is important to the current discussion (specifically the "Intent Requirement" and "Standard of Fear" sections):

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/docs/src/analyzing-stalking-statute.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I obviously don't know where this case occurred or how it turned out, but the plaintiff likely had the required legal standing to file the suit.

If you are referring to the case involving the guy with the flowers, he agreed to the restraining order in exchange for the charges being dropped. He also left her alone. Everybody won. It is worth mentioning that all he did was ask her to dinner twice and send her flowers. They worked together, so he did know her. I think the first time she shot him down she gave him an excuse about scheduling. The second time I think she expressed a lack of interest. There was no physical contact or even attempted contact. He didn't follow her around or make any threatening statements. The guy was just bonkers for the girl until she called 5-0. He thought of it as an overreaction, and even the judge agreed. I think he'd have thrown the case out had they not come to the deal I mentioned. Also, for the record, I wasn't the guy's attorney, but I did see case most of the way through the process.

Also, I think it is very relevant to the topic of recognizing flirting, which can be hard for aspies (and others), to discuss weighing the potential consequences of being wrong. There are reasons why many guys, NT or otherwise, are increasingly hesitant to ask girls out or to attempt the first kiss in a "romantic" way.

You've got to be kidding me. A "fine line"? You need to reexamine your definition of "going the extra mile."

It's one thing to try to do something nice for someone you like. Refusing to take no for an answer is another entirely.

Many women will take the position that they always send clear signals and that guys should back off at the first refusal/rejection. I have heard others say they initially turned a guy down because they wanted to be "pursued" and wouldn't say yes the first or even second time asked. In other words, whether you should continue asking after the first rejection depends a lot on the persons involved. It is not so clear cut for everyone as it is for you. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't be able to tell a guy to leave you alone and have him do precisely that. The question becomes, how does a guy know one scenario from the other?

There are websites that try to teach guys when a girl is "playing hard to get" (example) and websites that teach girls how to play "hard to get" (example). Forgive me for saying, but there is a lot of confusion over this issue, and it is my perspective that mixed signals blur the line between playing hard to get and legitimately wanting to be left alone. So maybe "blurry" line and not "fine" line is the more appropriate metaphor?

That said Ereth, for what it is worth, I agree with you completely that it should be easy for a girl to say "leave me alone" and to be left alone. Part of the reason this doesn't happen is that there are guys who are jerks. Also, there are girls who play games instead of being straight with guys, which results in confusion.

Remember the girl I mentioned earlier who though it was weird I told her I was going to kiss her before actually doing it? She made a big deal before she ever met me to tell all my friends she wasn't interested in me. When we did finally meet (people had told us about each other), she said: "I'm not impressed." For whatever reason, I got the feeling she was issuing a challenge rather than telling me to piss off. Turned out I was right, and we dated on and off for around a year. Why didn't she just ask me out or wait for me to ask her out? Why all the mixed signals? I have no answers.

 

[Ylva]

Many women will take the position that they always send clear signals and that guys should back off at the first refusal/rejection. I have heard others say they initially turned a guy down because they wanted to be "pursued" and wouldn't say yes the first or even second time asked. In other words, whether you should continue asking after the first rejection depends a lot on the persons involved. It is not so clear cut for everyone as it is for you. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't be able to tell a guy to leave you alone and have him do precisely that. The question becomes, how does a guy know one scenario from the other?

There are websites that try to teach guys when a girl is "playing hard to get" (example) and websites that teach girls how to play "hard to get" (example). Forgive me for saying, but there is a lot of confusion over this issue, and it is my perspective that mixed signals blur the line between playing hard to get and legitimately wanting to be left alone. So maybe "blurry" line and not "fine" line is the more appropriate metaphor?

That said Ereth, for what it is worth, I agree with you completely that it should be easy for a girl to say "leave me alone" and to be left alone. Part of the reason this doesn't happen is that there are guys who are jerks. Also, there are girls who play games instead of being straight with guys, which results in confusion.

Remember the girl I mentioned earlier who though it was weird I told her I was going to kiss her before actually doing it? She made a big deal before she ever met me to tell all my friends she wasn't interested in me. When we did finally meet (people had told us about each other), she said: "I'm not impressed." For whatever reason, I got the feeling she was issuing a challenge rather than telling me to piss off. Turned out I was right, and we dated on and off for around a year. Why didn't she just ask me out or wait for me to ask her out? Why all the mixed signals? I have no answers.

For this reason I choose to see my literalism as a good thing. I could spend time wondering, but I'd rather just take their word (i.e. "no") for it. Not everyone says "no" right out, apparently they think it's rude or something, but if people start hinting and being vague I'm out. I don't want to spend time around that kind of people anyway.

 

[icesyckel]

"I think she just wasn't expecting it. As I said, she got me an icepack (bag of Green Giant frozen green beans actually) and kissed me while holding it on my face, so... I'm a guy. A good make out session is worth a slap in the face."

See? You LIKED it then, right? So why did you gripe about it, like she had done something wrong? The thing with not telling her she shouldn't have done that makes it look ok for women to act that way.

Any Aspie guy reading this, if a woman slaps you and you aren't expecting it (unless you may be into that kinda thing), then get up and leave. IT'S NOT A NORMAL ACTION FROM A MENTALLY STABLE INDIVIDUAL (unless you're into that kinda thing, of course, OR they are having a seizure.)

Wrong. I didn't like getting slapped. I liked the part that came after, and she immediately apologized. It's not like I continued dating every girl who ever slapped me, and I don't condone violence at all in any relationship. I am a forgiving person, though. In my mind, she said she was sorry. You say it couldn't be a reflex, and maybe you're right? What do I know? I'm not a physician or psychologist, so I can't say what is and is not possible concerning reflex actions. At the time I believed her, and I thought she was sweet when she iced my face and tried to make amends. Felt romantic at the time at least.

As to "griping" - that was not my intention. I am not complaining. I was discussing the risks of misjudging someone else's interest in you/affection for you. The central point was, while it may be more romantic to just swoop in with a kiss without warning, it can result in a slap (which I don't condone or like despite your accusation to the contrary) or other negative repercussions up to and including criminal charges. I am not sure why you are accusing me of griping (complaining) and feel that was an unfair/inaccurate statement.

I do, however, agree with your advice about avoiding people who think it is appropriate to slap someone. That is sound advice.

 

[icesyckel]

For this reason I choose to see my literalism as a good thing. I could spend time wondering, but I'd rather just take their word (i.e. "no") for it. Not everyone says "no" right out, apparently they think it's rude or something, but if people start hinting and being vague I'm out. I don't want to spend time around that kind of people anyway.

I think your literalism is a good thing too. I wish more women I had dated had been so reliably transparent with their thoughts. I don't know if it is because I think differently from an NT guy, but I actually prefer women to be straightforward. My wife is NT, but she is very straightforward, and I love that about her. It's her best quality really. She tells me she loves me, and she doesn't play games. First time I asked her to dinner, she asked me if I was asking her as a date. She actually made me clarify my intentions. I thought that was both bold and sexy.

 

[icesyckel]

"I have heard many girls say that they want to be "pursued"."

To me "pursued" means that once a man and woman have gone on a few dates, the man still continues to do "dating" things such as dates, flowers, etc. to show interest in doing more than just "casual dating".

I have asked out men before and if they had said "No" or didn't answer me back like my algebra professor did, I take the hint and don't ask them again. For some reason, they weren't interested and it was their loss. Why would I want to keep trying to go out with someone who wasn't interested in me in the first place?

Possibly I misunderstood what was meant by wanting to be "pursued." I had never actually managed to persuade a girl to explain the meaning behind this word, though I have heard many girls repeat it. Back then more than today, like Ylva, I was pretty literal about things. I just took pursue to imply dogged pursuit. You know - keep trying against all odds, that sort of thing. Maybe all along they meant what you wrote above - I don't know. I wonder whether if being NT, I would have understood that better?

I kinda doubt it, though. Most NT guys I knew during my dating years seemed just as confused about women as I did. Maybe more so?

The only difference was that I kept at it. I think I dated more b/c I wasn't NT. I didn't know I had AS at the time, but I knew I wasn't naturally good at communicating with other people, especially women. So I practiced. To me it seemed logical that, if you want to meet the right person to spend your life with, you've got to do a lot of looking around to find her. A lot of NT guys I knew (and know) would just zero in on one girlfriend, even if they knew she wasn't the right fit, and date her exclusively for as long as a year before trying a date with a different girl. Never made sense to me to get so committed so fast without seeing what else was available that might be more compatible, taking themselves off the market entirely for a year or more. I think it's tantamount to "leading her on" to get exclusive with a girl with whom you see no long-term potential.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

"I have heard others say they initially turned a guy down because they wanted to be "pursued" and wouldn't say yes the first or even second time asked."

"Also, there are girls who play games instead of being straight with guys, which results in confusion."

That's exactly what those women are doing is "playing games." And someone who says that they won't accept a date (if they're interested) on the first asking (and may even need to be asked for a date again?) before saying "Yes", THEY ARE PLAYING GAMES! Forgive me for not using my "indoor voice", but I can't believe there are women who act like that - it makes all women look bad. If a person can't be straight forward with you in accepting or not accepting a date after being asked ONE TIME, then stay clear of them. That's why I don't go for flirting either because all it is is another game and I'm not in the mood to play.

"Also, I think it is very relevant to the topic of recognizing flirting, which can be hard for aspies (and others), to discuss weighing the potential consequences of being wrong. There are reasons why many guys, NT or otherwise, are increasingly hesitant to ask girls out or to attempt the first kiss in a "romantic" way."

I totally agree with you on this. Until reading this thread, I didn't even know that Aspies aren't able to pick up on when someone is flirting with them. When I asked my Aspie friend about this, he said it was true - he has no idea when someone is flirting with him. Anything related to "flirting" I think should be discussed - both positives and negatives.

 

[Ereth]

He thought of it as an overreaction, and even the judge agreed. I think he'd have thrown the case out had they not come to the deal I mentioned. Also, for the record, I wasn't the guy's attorney, but I did see case most of the way through the process.

Fair enough.

There are reasons why many guys, NT or otherwise, are increasingly hesitant to ask girls out or to attempt the first kiss in a "romantic" way.

It's the same for women.

There are websites that try to teach guys when a girl is "playing hard to get" (example) and websites that teach girls how to play "hard to get" (example). Forgive me for saying, but there is a lot of confusion over this issue, and it is my perspective that mixed signals blur the line between playing hard to get and legitimately wanting to be left alone. So maybe "blurry" line and not "fine" line is the more appropriate metaphor?

I don't think there is an appropriate metaphor, to be honest. I understand that some people like "playing hard to get" (I don't; I think it's ********), but I think most reasonable people can tell the difference between mild teasing and a serious "I'm not interested."

Part of the reason this doesn't happen is that there are guys who are jerks. Also, there are girls who play games instead of being straight with guys, which results in confusion.

I sincerely hope you meant to add that "guys who are jerks" can also play games. But it's a known double standard that men are permitted by society to fool around while women are not.

 

[Ste11aeres]

What I've noticed so far with flirting and my boyfriend: he tends to over think the situation, and he really wants to say the perfect thing. He usually ends up thinking too much about it, and stumbles over the whole conversation feeling uneasy and unsure. Lately he's gotten better, I notice he takes a deep breath, probably to help clear his head (I'm guessing) he'll think briefly about something to say or do, then goes for it. (The look on his face just screams 'leap of faith' moment.) I've gotten to the point where I'll tell him if I'm going to flirt with him, or if he's doing something that might come off as playful/alluring/flirty..etc. As for tips or signs of flirtations from other people.. Just watch for eye contact, change in voice, and a big one people sometimes overlook.. When a woman's eyes narrow/look a little smaller or sleepy she's probably flirting with you. (This doesn't usually happen with men. Their eyebrows usually give it away though, if they have a look of domineering confidence, they are probably flirting with you, or about to/thinking about it.)

Hope this helps!

I tried once to write something flirtatious to someone. They responded with: "weird, but good try."

 

[Ste11aeres]

Granted, I have never personally been pepper sprayed or sued. I have been slapped for kissing a girl, but never when it was clear (to me) that she was uncomfortable with my advances. I never tried to kiss a girl, for example, before at least having had a successful date. I got slapped once on a 3rd date only to learn she had a great time but didn't plan to kiss a guy until her wedding day, so she was pissed I ruined that. Of course, she never shared that with me, and it was the 3rd date. Worst part was, once I learned that was her rule, I knew for certain I didn't want to go out again.

She could've told me at the outset about her atypical rule and saved us both a lot of time. I would never have gone out with her at all had I known. What dude wants to marry a chick he's never kissed? What if you get to the altar, exchange rings, and then realize for the first time that you have no physical chemistry at all? Talk about bad news. I'm not saying you need to "go all the way" before getting married, but never even kissing before marrying? I can't work with that restriction. Also, she gave me every indication she was into me. And she was. She just didn't want to kiss me. Or, rather, she did, but she didn't want to do it until we were getting hitched, which was also weird - she's imagining getting married on date 3, and I am out of line for wanting a kiss? Who was really rushing things...

Another girl slapped me HARD, and then apologized saying, "Oh, no - I didn't mean that it was just a reflex I swear." With reflexes like that, imagine the wedding night? I ain't no John Bobbit. She actually was fine with being kissed, but she left a hand print on my face because I surprised her. She made up for it by getting me ice, and she kissed me while holding the ice pack on. I was shocked.

On the occasions I asked, like Oni, I have also had girls tell me that they would have been fine if I just did it but that the moment was lost. That was why I came up with the whole just tell them and then swoop in. I have found that this gives them warning as previously pointed out, but on one occasion the warning was used to prepare a slap.

Bottom line: if you date enough as a guy, then you will probably get slapped sooner or later, even if by accidental reflex. I have had friends who got pepper-sprayed, and I have to think my warning technique (used for first kisses only) probably saved me from that. I had one friend who got reported to campus police for kissing a girl. Fortunately, she didn't falsely accuse him of something else, but there was an investigation, and his entire dorm went through "training" by university (campus life) staff members. Ironically the cop thought making the report was an "overreaction" since it was one kiss, and the guy never did it again after she told him it was not well received.

All of the above are minority horror stories, though - like less than 10%. Most of the time when I dared to lean in for a kiss, it was well received. In those few cases where I had misjudged, most ladies were cool enough to just politely tell me I had misread their feelings, which I appreciate in comparison to slaps and more severe alternatives.

I have been professionally involved (not as a party or defendant) in several court cases, though, that have caused me to warn most guys about the risks you take just trying to be romantic. I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order.

So, most of the time you're going to be okay, but there are risks. You can't always avoid taking risks in life, but it is good to actually be aware of them.

I don't understand the idea of slapping a guy.
I think, as a woman, if it's an instance where the guy is well-intentioned but you (you the woman, not you the person reading this) didn't like it, then just tell him.
If (in a drastically different and far worse situation) it's a potential rapist-get the heck away from the guy-a slap won't do anything but if you can hit hard enough to actually disable him go ahead.

 

[icesyckel]

"I have heard others say they initially turned a guy down because they wanted to be "pursued" and wouldn't say yes the first or even second time asked."

"Also, there are girls who play games instead of being straight with guys, which results in confusion."

That's exactly what those women are doing is "playing games." And someone who says that they won't accept a date (if they're interested) on the first asking (and may even need to be asked for a date again?) before saying "Yes", THEY ARE PLAYING GAMES! Forgive me for not using my "indoor voice", but I can't believe there are women who act like that - it makes all women look bad. If a person can't be straight forward with you in accepting or not accepting a date after being asked ONE TIME, then stay clear of them. That's why I don't go for flirting either because all it is is another game and I'm not in the mood to play.

"Also, I think it is very relevant to the topic of recognizing flirting, which can be hard for aspies (and others), to discuss weighing the potential consequences of being wrong. There are reasons why many guys, NT or otherwise, are increasingly hesitant to ask girls out or to attempt the first kiss in a "romantic" way."

I totally agree with you on this. Until reading this thread, I didn't even know that Aspies aren't able to pick up on when someone is flirting with them. When I asked my Aspie friend about this, he said it was true - he has no idea when someone is flirting with him. Anything related to "flirting" I think should be discussed - both positives and negatives.

Yeah, social "games" are so hard for me even now. I do well in my profession because communications are structured and ordered - people speak in turn and most often to intermediaries (e.g. mediators, magistrates, judges, arbitrators, special masters, jurors, etc.).

In social settings, though, I am expected to sort things out without any sort of teaching. Many (not all) women seem to think that men should just understand what they are thinking/feeling. I don't know about NT guys, but I don't ever "just know." If I do pick up on something, it is because I create rules for almost every conceivable social situation. I mentally catalogue what works, what doesn't, and what works only situationally. Then you add in developing concepts like "political correctness," which I don't really understand, and then you try to factor in that relatively new concept to your existing rule set, and it is ... exhausting.

I know when a woman is flirting with me based only on trial and error, not instinct. In the beginning, before I had come even close to getting the hang of it, I swear to you that I was slapped/hit a few times for drawing the wrong conclusions. I thought she wanted to be kissed, or I thought she wanted me to hold her hand. When I was wrong, I always apologized and either tried a different approach or moved on entirely. It's very rare you meet the girl who tells you to kiss her (though those were my favorite few - bold is good, and clarity is better). As I dated more, I got slapped less.

You're probably a nice person, Nurse, and too nice to hit someone for making a mistake/misjudgment. Is it really so hard to believe that there are women out there who aren't so nice/forgiving? Anyway, it is not my intent to complain, but just to point out that it is really important for people on the spectrum to learn, if possible, how to successfully spot flirting. It is an important social skill that usually doesn't come naturally to us.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Possibly I misunderstood what was meant by wanting to be "pursued." I had never actually managed to persuade a girl to explain the meaning behind this word, though I have heard many girls repeat it. Back then more than today, like Ylva, I was pretty literal about things. I just took pursue to imply dogged pursuit. You know - keep trying against all odds, that sort of thing. Maybe all along they meant what you wrote above - I don't know. I wonder whether if being NT, I would have understood that better?

I kinda doubt it, though. Most NT guys I knew during my dating years seemed just as confused about women as I did. Maybe more so?

The only difference was that I kept at it. I think I dated more b/c I wasn't NT. I didn't know I had AS at the time, but I knew I wasn't naturally good at communicating with other people, especially women. So I practiced. To me it seemed logical that, if you want to meet the right person to spend your life with, you've got to do a lot of looking around to find her. A lot of NT guys I knew (and know) would just zero in on one girlfriend, even if they knew she wasn't the right fit, and date her exclusively for as long as a year before trying a date with a different girl. Never made sense to me to get so committed so fast without seeing what else was available that might be more compatible, taking themselves off the market entirely for a year or more. I think it's tantamount to "leading her on" to get exclusive with a girl with whom you see no long-term potential.

The problem with some men (a lot of NT men) are that they like what they call a "challenge" and will keep "pursuing" a woman even when their efforts are not being well received. Like that one saying goes "when a woman says "No" she really means "Yes" - whatever, the one who came up with that line is probably wearing an orange jumpsuit as we speak. I can see where Aspies would get confused since they take things literally. When a woman says "No" it means "NO". Accept the answer and move on.