• Welcome to Autism Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Aspergers Syndrome, Autism, High Functioning Autism and related conditions.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon! Please also check us out @ https://www.twitter.com/aspiescentral

How do People Recognise Flirting?

I am having trouble with this at the moment. I can recognize flirting in person for the most part, but in chat and text messages I am completely oblivious. At the moment I am on a facebook break because I have male friends (who I legitimately think/thought are friends) who may or may not be speaking to me in an appropriate way. Until I can be sure I won't risk accidentally flirting back. I have had to tell some of them point-blank that you need to stop talking to me like that, but some that I have known a long time are harder to tell.
 
I am having trouble with this at the moment. I can recognize flirting in person for the most part, but in chat and text messages I am completely oblivious. At the moment I am on a facebook break because I have male friends (who I legitimately think/thought are friends) who may or may not be speaking to me in an appropriate way. Until I can be sure I won't risk accidentally flirting back. I have had to tell some of them point-blank that you need to stop talking to me like that, but some that I have known a long time are harder to tell.
This is why, when I first started seeing my boyfriend, I asked him to tell me when he was flirting, because I've had bad experiences with people in the past. Bullies at school would pretend to flirt with me. I knew they weren't sincere, but it was as if they were saying, "You're not attractive enough for someone to actually be interested in you." That scarred me emotionally for a long time.

Then my boyfriend came into my life and told all my self-doubt to go away.
 
This is why, when I first started seeing my boyfriend, I asked him to tell me when he was flirting, because I've had bad experiences with people in the past. Bullies at school would pretend to flirt with me. I knew they weren't sincere, but it was as if they were saying, "You're not attractive enough for someone to actually be interested in you." That scarred me emotionally for a long time.

Then my boyfriend came into my life and told all my self-doubt to go away.
Same here (exept for a nice boyfriend coming into my life). The only flirting I recognised was the overexaggerated kind, usually by people in a group. I understand your pain. While I have no interest in romantic or sexual relationships, it still hurts that people are repulsed by me.
 
I hope you find contentment somehow. If you believe in your own good qualities, it won't matter if a few people can't see them.
 
From a female perspective, now days if you just smile at a guy and are nice to him that's flirting...

Yup, it's beyond me.
 
I've been told I'm oblivious to it. I know what you are supposed to do when you flirt (studied the behavior) but I won't put it into practice. I've been told I'm really bad at it. My current guy friend tried with me but realized that it wasn't going to happen so he's settled with being friends. Though that friendship borderlines that friend/relationship line.
 
Don't feel too bad. I tried to be nice to my wife's friends and they went to her and told her that I was trying to have an affair. WHAT? I was blown away by this. How could people misinterpret my intentions so badly? Anyways, since we found out that I have Aspergers and my wife did some research, she realizes that it was not at all what it seemed. I would never do something like that and her friends were busy bodies that made a practice of talking behind peoples backs, and apparently were flattering themselves. Things worked out in the end, but I do not associate with those ladies at all.

DISCLAIMER: A "generalization" is "a proposition asserting something to be true either of all members of a certain class or of an indefinite part of that class."

By its definition, the proposition does not necessarily apply to all parts of that class but to an "indefinite" part.

So please don't jump on me for making the following generalization about women, as I intend this as an generalization of the latter variety, being true in an indefinite or unknown number of cases. I acknowledge that there will be many women who do not fit the proposition below, and I am only asserting the proposition based upon my own personal experiences, which is in turn based on an understandably limited data (no man has communicated with or observed all women). /DISCLAIMER

I have observed that women (and some men too) find it VERY easy to believe the worst about men (am I the only one who finds it humorous that I am generalizing about how women tend to make unspoken generalizations pertaining to men? Probably...). If a man is accused of flirting, cheating, or even doing unspeakable things to children, then the female (and sometimes male) mindset is often "guilty until proven innocent."

My wife is an exception to this generalization. More accurately, I am an exception to her internal generalization of men, since she would not believe such things about me unless they were proven (though she might have the opposite perspective concerning other men). However, I still avoid speaking to her friends alone for the same reason that I don't let strange kids pet my dogs at the park unless their parents are present - you need a witness as a man to disprove any unexpected false allegations.

This may sound like a silly or sexist observation. However, I have personally observed normal, ordinary, and seemingly honest men indicted on flimsy evidence where, if it had been a woman who was accused, the grand jury would not have returned an indictment.

Now, imagine when you are accused it is learned that you are a man who was Dx'd with AS/ASD in a world filled with people who are totally ignorant about AS/ASD. Those same ignorant people are potential jurors. If a man with the Dx is accused of anything, either in real court, the court of public opinion, or just by his wife's friends, then he faces a serious dilemma. Our constitutional right to be regarded as innocent until proven guilty will mean precisely jack.

I say all this because you never know, as a man (especially a man on the spectrum), how your actions will be perceived, especially by women and parents. Peace, you were lucky that these women (who you have observed to be gossips) only accused you of attempted cheating. I am pleased your wife was able to understand. However, you made the right decision to cease associating with them.

I like kids - not in a creepy way, but I don't have any children of my own, and so I enjoy chatting with kids for some reason. I often like them more than adults (so long as they are not screaming or making loud noises that drives me away in pain). However, my wife observed that I tend to stare at them (and adults too) and that talking to kids when there parents aren't around is a "weird" thing for a guy to do. I disagree, but she is right that many NT people see it that way, so I avoid being alone with children and women (now that I am married there is no woman I need to be alone with other than my wife). When a kid approaches me walking my dogs in the park, unless there is a parent present to supervise, I walk away as quickly as my dogs allow.

Some (certainly not all) men with AS/ASD present as being naive or even gullible at times. I know I have an instinct to assume people are being straight and honest with me, and I have to fight that instinct. We are all, once Dx'd, at heightened risk of both unfounded accusations followed by ignorant assumptions based on the Dx. I hope you will all take my advice and be wary about who you are alone with. It's not fair, and it's not "right," but it is wise.
 
DISCLAIMER: A "generalization" is "a proposition asserting something to be true either of all members of a certain class or of an indefinite part of that class."

By its definition, the proposition does not necessarily apply to all parts of that class but to an "indefinite" part.

So please don't jump on me for making the following generalization about women, as I intend this as an generalization of the latter variety, being true in an indefinite or unknown number of cases. I acknowledge that there will be many women who do not fit the proposition below, and I am only asserting the proposition based upon my own personal experiences, which is in turn based on an understandably limited data (no man has communicated with or observed all women). /DISCLAIMER

I have observed that women (and some men too) find it VERY easy to believe the worst about men (am I the only one who finds it humorous that I am generalizing about how women tend to make unspoken generalizations pertaining to men? Probably...). If a man is accused of flirting, cheating, or even doing unspeakable things to children, then the female (and sometimes male) mindset is often "guilty until proven innocent."

My wife is an exception to this generalization. More accurately, I am an exception to her internal generalization of men, since she would not believe such things about me unless they were proven (though she might have the opposite perspective concerning other men). However, I still avoid speaking to her friends alone for the same reason that I don't let strange kids pet my dogs at the park unless their parents are present - you need a witness as a man to disprove any unexpected false allegations.

This may sound like a silly or sexist observation. However, I have personally observed normal, ordinary, and seemingly honest men indicted on flimsy evidence where, if it had been a woman who was accused, the grand jury would not have returned an indictment.

Now, imagine when you are accused it is learned that you are a man who was Dx'd with AS/ASD in a world filled with people who are totally ignorant about AS/ASD. Those same ignorant people are potential jurors. If a man with the Dx is accused of anything, either in real court, the court of public opinion, or just by his wife's friends, then he faces a serious dilemma. Our constitutional right to be regarded as innocent until proven guilty will mean precisely jack.

I say all this because you never know, as a man (especially a man on the spectrum), how your actions will be perceived, especially by women and parents. Peace, you were lucky that these women (who you have observed to be gossips) only accused you of attempted cheating. I am pleased your wife was able to understand. However, you made the right decision to cease associating with them.

I like kids - not in a creepy way, but I don't have any children of my own, and so I enjoy chatting with kids for some reason. I often like them more than adults (so long as they are not screaming or making loud noises that drives me away in pain). However, my wife observed that I tend to stare at them (and adults too) and that talking to kids when there parents aren't around is a "weird" thing for a guy to do. I disagree, but she is right that many NT people see it that way, so I avoid being alone with children and women (now that I am married there is no woman I need to be alone with other than my wife). When a kid approaches me walking my dogs in the park, unless there is a parent present to supervise, I walk away as quickly as my dogs allow.

Some (certainly not all) men with AS/ASD present as being naive or even gullible at times. I know I have an instinct to assume people are being straight and honest with me, and I have to fight that instinct. We are all, once Dx'd, at heightened risk of both unfounded accusations followed by ignorant assumptions based on the Dx. I hope you will all take my advice and be wary about who you are alone with. It's not fair, and it's not "right," but it is wise.

I didn't read the disclaimer - it made my eyes go fuzzy. That's prob why I'm not in law because I never like reading the fine print.

Anyway, I hate to say it, but you're totally right about false accusations. What really pisses me off are the women who have falsely accused someone of rape - they have raised doubts in people's minds towards the women that rape has actually happened to.

Another thing you said is about the kids. It's sad but true. I don't have any kids either, but if I did I would be extremely overprotective. Evidently, one can't even trust their own priest anymore not to do some sexually perverted thing to their child. (What the priests did to those children made me leave the Catholic Church - I've been a Catholic my whole life and the pharmacist I work with also left the church). We even had an Amber alert not too long ago where a coach of a school kidnapped a 10 yr old girl. The Amber alert was put out 2 hrs late and the little girl was found murdered in the coach's house. A person can never be too safe where their children are concerned. It's too bad that you have to be the way you are around children, but you're right in doing so. It's the perverts and liars that have made things bad for the rest if us, I'm sorry to say.
 
I didn't read the disclaimer - it made my eyes go fuzzy. That's prob why I'm not in law because I never like reading the fine print.

Anyway, I hate to say it, but you're totally right about false accusations. What really pisses me off are the women who have falsely accused someone of rape - they have raised doubts in people's minds towards the women that rape has actually happened to.

Another thing you said is about the kids. It's sad but true. I don't have any kids either, but if I did I would be extremely overprotective. Evidently, one can't even trust their own priest anymore not to do some sexually perverted thing to their child. (What the priests did to those children made me leave the Catholic Church - I've been a Catholic my whole life and the pharmacist I work with also left the church). We even had an Amber alert not too long ago where a coach of a school kidnapped a 10 yr old girl. The Amber alert was put out 2 hrs late and the little girl was found murdered in the coach's house. A person can never be too safe where their children are concerned. It's too bad that you have to be the way you are around children, but you're right in doing so. It's the perverts and liars that have made things bad for the rest if us, I'm sorry to say.

I agree with being protective of children - there are certainly legitimate predators out there. Possibly there are so many predators that the false accusations are simply a result of statistical analysis. Perhaps most men accused are guilty, I dunno. What I do know if that false accusations happen. Hypothetically, if (reliable) statistics showed that most men accused are actually guilty of the allegations, then those in the minority who are falsely accused are even less likely to be exculpated. That possibility only strengthens my position that men who are not actually predators should avoid being completely alone with children and should be alone only with trusted women.

Of course, we are way off topic here. However, bringing the two together, the danger for those men on the spectrum trying to recognize flirting is that, if we think we are being flirted with but are actually wrong, then there is the risk that we will give a woman the wrong idea. It is not a difficult scenario to imagine. A woman says something really nice that could be construed as flirty while expecting her body language to convey the lack of interest. The aspie guy leans in for a kiss or embrace, and BAM - pepper spray and a call to 911.
 
What really pisses me off are the women who have falsely accused someone of rape - they have raised doubts in people's minds towards the women that rape has actually happened to.
I'm going to go ahead and change "women" to "people" because men are victims too.
 
Of course, we are way off topic here. However, bringing the two together, the danger for those men on the spectrum trying to recognize flirting is that, if we think we are being flirted with but are actually wrong, then there is the risk that we will give a woman the wrong idea. It is not a difficult scenario to imagine. A woman says something really nice that could be construed as flirty while expecting her body language to convey the lack of interest. The aspie guy leans in for a kiss or embrace, and BAM - pepper spray and a call to 911.
I'd like to comment that even if the thing being said is intended to be flirty, that doesn't mean the speaker wants a kiss or embrace. It is more likely that she simply expects the guy to respond with something verbal.
The Aspie guy should explicitly ask before attempting physical contact: "I would like to hug you. Is that all right?"
 
What I've noticed so far with flirting and my boyfriend: he tends to over think the situation, and he really wants to say the perfect thing. He usually ends up thinking too much about it, and stumbles over the whole conversation feeling uneasy and unsure. Lately he's gotten better, I notice he takes a deep breath, probably to help clear his head (I'm guessing) he'll think briefly about something to say or do, then goes for it. (The look on his face just screams 'leap of faith' moment.) I've gotten to the point where I'll tell him if I'm going to flirt with him, or if he's doing something that might come off as playful/alluring/flirty..etc. As for tips or signs of flirtations from other people.. Just watch for eye contact, change in voice, and a big one people sometimes overlook.. When a woman's eyes narrow/look a little smaller or sleepy she's probably flirting with you. (This doesn't usually happen with men. Their eyebrows usually give it away though, if they have a look of domineering confidence, they are probably flirting with you, or about to/thinking about it.)

Hope this helps! :D
 
The Aspie guy should explicitly ask before attempting physical contact: "I would like to hug you. Is that all right?"

While I guess that this would be the aspie way, I actually ended up in a situation where I asked before engaging in physical contact and it got answered "this is quite the moodbreaker, isn't it?" That made for a awkward situation, the girl got up and left because it wrecked the mood. And I think that's not that rare to happen actually.

Such situations would also put an emphasis on the fact that for some reason people should know exactly how and when to make a move.. .a second to early or late can already give the wrong signal... asking it in the wrong tone of voice can give the wrong signal, choosing the wrong words can be a dealbreaker to some... and I'm not even touching upon aspie women in specific, who perhaps by stereotype, can be quite nitpicky.

On the topic of flirting; I've read that some states (or even cities) have laws, albeit antiquated ones, that actually criminalize flirting (Little rock, AR if I'm correct). If so, it means that there has to be a foolproof definition of flirting and this has to be perceived by any and all participants as flirting. And granted, the law is old, and probably before we sereiously dealt with mental illness and such in society, it makes me wonder how such a law of "understanding social protocol" holds up to those who have no solid grasp of social protocol such as the demographic on this forum (and yes, I'm generalizing and yes, I am aware this does not apply to all of you... but as they say "if the shoe fits, wear it")
 
I actually ended up in a situation where I asked before engaging in physical contact and it got answered "this is quite the moodbreaker, isn't it?" That made for a awkward situation, the girl got up and left because it wrecked the mood. And I think that's not that rare to happen actually.

Ste11aries' suggestion was well-reasoned and undoubtedly well-intentioned, but you are right Oni that most of the time asking ruins it in my experience. Sometimes you do have to risk getting slapped,papper sprayed, or sued to kiss a girl. It's a really crappy situation for guys. With an aspie girl it might be better, but with the NT's of the world, asking is usually the same as pointing a gun at your foot and pulling the trigger.

In college I had a compromise. I used to try and look bold and say, "Unless you plan on telling me to piss off, I am going to kiss you now." That way you're not so much asking as giving her advance warning. It doesn't seem as wimpy, and she still has time to prevent it. Still, that is almost as hard to pull off as just going for it.
 
Sometimes you do have to risk getting slapped, pepper sprayed, or sued to kiss a girl.
I can't imagine this happening unless it's already been made clear that the person one is attempting to kiss is uncomfortable with one's advances.
 
"Unless you plan on telling me to piss off, I am going to kiss you now."

What?! :confused: Oh my. Any pucker would have went right outta my lips. That is sooooooo NOT romantic. I'd much rather be surprised. (That's all I'm going to say about that.) :rolleyes:
 
I'd much rather be surprised. (That's all I'm going to say about that.) :rolleyes:

Yup. Flirting can produced mixed messages or none at all. Another silly social convention IMO.

Now if you know the person well enough, you should be able to gauge whether or not a kiss will be invited or not. It's not rocket science. From friends to lovers with one kiss. Been there, done that.
 
I can't imagine this happening unless it's already been made clear that the person one is attempting to kiss is uncomfortable with one's advances.

Granted, I have never personally been pepper sprayed or sued. I have been slapped for kissing a girl, but never when it was clear (to me) that she was uncomfortable with my advances. I never tried to kiss a girl, for example, before at least having had a successful date. I got slapped once on a 3rd date only to learn she had a great time but didn't plan to kiss a guy until her wedding day, so she was pissed I ruined that. Of course, she never shared that with me, and it was the 3rd date. Worst part was, once I learned that was her rule, I knew for certain I didn't want to go out again.

She could've told me at the outset about her atypical rule and saved us both a lot of time. I would never have gone out with her at all had I known. What dude wants to marry a chick he's never kissed? What if you get to the altar, exchange rings, and then realize for the first time that you have no physical chemistry at all? Talk about bad news. I'm not saying you need to "go all the way" before getting married, but never even kissing before marrying? I can't work with that restriction. Also, she gave me every indication she was into me. And she was. She just didn't want to kiss me. Or, rather, she did, but she didn't want to do it until we were getting hitched, which was also weird - she's imagining getting married on date 3, and I am out of line for wanting a kiss? Who was really rushing things...

Another girl slapped me HARD, and then apologized saying, "Oh, no - I didn't mean that it was just a reflex I swear." With reflexes like that, imagine the wedding night? I ain't no John Bobbit. She actually was fine with being kissed, but she left a hand print on my face because I surprised her. She made up for it by getting me ice, and she kissed me while holding the ice pack on. I was shocked.

On the occasions I asked, like Oni, I have also had girls tell me that they would have been fine if I just did it but that the moment was lost. That was why I came up with the whole just tell them and then swoop in. I have found that this gives them warning as previously pointed out, but on one occasion the warning was used to prepare a slap.

Bottom line: if you date enough as a guy, then you will probably get slapped sooner or later, even if by accidental reflex. I have had friends who got pepper-sprayed, and I have to think my warning technique (used for first kisses only) probably saved me from that. I had one friend who got reported to campus police for kissing a girl. Fortunately, she didn't falsely accuse him of something else, but there was an investigation, and his entire dorm went through "training" by university (campus life) staff members. Ironically the cop thought making the report was an "overreaction" since it was one kiss, and the guy never did it again after she told him it was not well received.

All of the above are minority horror stories, though - like less than 10%. Most of the time when I dared to lean in for a kiss, it was well received. In those few cases where I had misjudged, most ladies were cool enough to just politely tell me I had misread their feelings, which I appreciate in comparison to slaps and more severe alternatives.

I have been professionally involved (not as a party or defendant) in several court cases, though, that have caused me to warn most guys about the risks you take just trying to be romantic. I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order.

So, most of the time you're going to be okay, but there are risks. You can't always avoid taking risks in life, but it is good to actually be aware of them.
 

New Threads

Top Bottom