Hierarchal Social Structures

[Outdated]

This is something I've struggled to put in to words for many years. I still don't think I have it quite right though and would appreciate feedback.

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Hierarchal Social Structures


Most people live with and require a hierarchal structure in their social groups. There will be a leader of the group, second rank, third rank, etc. right down to the lowliest and newest member of the group. Most people seem to be able to navigate these structures of hierarchy with ease and effortlessly place themselves in the correct rank without even realising that they are doing so.

Ref: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0440

Most autistic people are unable to live like this. We often do not recognise the social cues that I believe must exist there somewhere and instead we tend to treat all people as our equals. This causes no problems for people that consider themselves to be lower ranking within a group but it irritates and frustrates people that consider themselves to be our betters.

It irritates and frustrates us too because we refuse to be meekly put in our place, in truth we don’t even understand that we have a place to be put in. This always leads to conflict, most obvious as children in a school yard but more problematic in a work place environment. People that refuse to meekly accept their place within a hierarchal structure will be bullied and victimised by most other members of the group until they relent and accept their place. No matter how high functioning autistic people are it seems we are simply not capable of doing this.

I was lucky in my early life in that I learnt a physical trade. In a trade environment social status is acquired by productivity. By skill, knowledge, ability, quality of work produced, speed at which work is produced, and reliability. This was a form of hierarchy that I understood and worked well with. Although I had social issues with some employers I was highly valued and usually exempted from having to try and fit in with any other form of social hierarchy.

It wasn’t until my trade (printing) started to die out and I had to work in other environments that I began to realise just how protected I had been. At this time I knew nothing about autism and I really struggled to cope with the world I found myself in. It was many years later before I began to understand what had happened to me.

This hierarchal structure affects many different aspects of our lives, including access to medical help. Most doctors believe they rank highly in a societal hierarchy because they have a PhD, and they seem naturally offended by high functioning autistic people who don’t meekly submit to that structure. I have had problems with doctors most of my life because of the way they react to me. I speak very clearly and describe what I believe is wrong politely and eloquently but most doctors have a knee jerk reaction to my lack of deference.

They will listen attentively to what I am saying and then deliberately go out of their way to prove me wrong, to prove that they are smarter than me and higher ranking in society than me. They will completely ignore all of my symptoms and go against all medical training and even defy logic in order to try and make me accept that they are of a higher social rank than me. Misdiagnosis is guaranteed.

I have met a few doctors over the years who don’t live by this hierarchal structure and have no social issues with me, I have found those doctors to be very clever, insightful and helpful. Those doctors are extremely rare though and as I get older I find myself having less and less faith in the medical profession in general.

An inability to navigate complex social hierarchies also dramatically affects our social lives. Most of us tend to only have one or two close friends and prefer to socialise in one on one situations. This negates most of the need for a form of hierarchy. Other social relationships tend to be kept more at arm’s length because we struggle to fit in and find our place. This also shows in the sports we tend to prefer, avoiding team situations and mostly aiming for personal achievements.

We are all social creatures and we need companionship, we need to feel like we belong and that we are part of a community, but most of us are incapable of learning the skills required. Our brains don’t work that way.

 

[Magna]

Interesting. I too have given little thought to social hierarchy. In the few times when I've picked up on someone thinking they're the leader of the group or them wanting to be the leader of the group, I've thought that the person has had a problem rather than a skill.

So maybe instead of humans retaining a "lizard brain" component, we instead have a "chicken brain" component due to humans having a pecking order like chickens do?

 

[Outdated]

This need for a hierarchal structure is much stronger in some people than others, yet all neurotypical people seem to be able to navigate these structures with ease. I struggle to notice that it's even there.

 

[Judge]

Most people live with and require a hierarchical structure in their social groups.

Indeed they do. And occasion it can stand out in the most unfortunate of ways. The imagined and nebulous sense of obedience to authority many respond to on a subconscious level.

Why Was the Milgram Experiment So Controversial?

The Milgram experiment was an infamous study that looked at obedience to authority. Learn what it revealed and the moral questions it raised.

www.verywellmind.com

 

[Outdated]

And occasion it can stand out in the most unfortunate of ways.

It took me many years to be able to quantify what the root cause of most of my social problems was, that was what I came up with. Surprisingly I had worked it out before finding out about autism, since I've learnt more about myself it seems to fit better.

I'm still not sure that it is worded well enough though. It's not bad but not perfect.

 

[Hypnalis]

There's a significant M/F split in natural organizations.

Men tend to fall into "stepped triangles". These are good in "the world of things" so you'll have seen them often. They're less good where the internal social structure is important , and where results are hard to usefully measure.

Women tend to go with more of a consensus approach, with flatter hierarchies. These work well in more social contexts, but tend to be less efficient where readily defined and measured objective goals have to be achieved (engineering projects, factories).

Note that it's not a simple either/or - both contain aspects of the other.

If you're only looking for one of those (like a guy hierarchy, which I'd expect in an old-school print shop) you'll miss the flatter, less obviously structured kind (typical medium-large private medical center).


BTW - dealing with Medical Doctors isn't just a matter of hierarchy and prestige.
If you want to steer them a bit, it helps to understand their analytical process, and why they have to use that process.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

This is something I've struggled to put in to words for many years. I still don't think I have it quite right though and would appreciate feedback.

-----

Hierarchal Social Structures


Most people live with and require a hierarchal structure in their social groups. There will be a leader of the group, second rank, third rank, etc. right down to the lowliest and newest member of the group. Most people seem to be able to navigate these structures of hierarchy with ease and effortlessly place themselves in the correct rank without even realising that they are doing so.

Ref: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0440

Most autistic people are unable to live like this. We often do not recognise the social cues that I believe must exist there somewhere and instead we tend to treat all people as our equals. This causes no problems for people that consider themselves to be lower ranking within a group but it irritates and frustrates people that consider themselves to be our betters.

It irritates and frustrates us too because we refuse to be meekly put in our place, in truth we don’t even understand that we have a place to be put in. This always leads to conflict, most obvious as children in a school yard but more problematic in a work place environment. People that refuse to meekly accept their place within a hierarchal structure will be bullied and victimised by most other members of the group until they relent and accept their place. No matter how high functioning autistic people are it seems we are simply not capable of doing this.

I was lucky in my early life in that I learnt a physical trade. In a trade environment social status is acquired by productivity. By skill, knowledge, ability, quality of work produced, speed at which work is produced, and reliability. This was a form of hierarchy that I understood and worked well with. Although I had social issues with some employers I was highly valued and usually exempted from having to try and fit in with any other form of social hierarchy.

It wasn’t until my trade (printing) started to die out and I had to work in other environments that I began to realise just how protected I had been. At this time I knew nothing about autism and I really struggled to cope with the world I found myself in. It was many years later before I began to understand what had happened to me.

This hierarchal structure affects many different aspects of our lives, including access to medical help. Most doctors believe they rank highly in a societal hierarchy because they have a PhD, and they seem naturally offended by high functioning autistic people who don’t meekly submit to that structure. I have had problems with doctors most of my life because of the way they react to me. I speak very clearly and describe what I believe is wrong politely and eloquently but most doctors have a knee jerk reaction to my lack of deference.

They will listen attentively to what I am saying and then deliberately go out of their way to prove me wrong, to prove that they are smarter than me and higher ranking in society than me. They will completely ignore all of my symptoms and go against all medical training and even defy logic in order to try and make me accept that they are of a higher social rank than me. Misdiagnosis is guaranteed.

I have met a few doctors over the years who don’t live by this hierarchal structure and have no social issues with me, I have found those doctors to be very clever, insightful and helpful. Those doctors are extremely rare though and as I get older I find myself having less and less faith in the medical profession in general.

An inability to navigate complex social hierarchies also dramatically affects our social lives. Most of us tend to only have one or two close friends and prefer to socialise in one on one situations. This negates most of the need for a form of hierarchy. Other social relationships tend to be kept more at arm’s length because we struggle to fit in and find our place. This also shows in the sports we tend to prefer, avoiding team situations and mostly aiming for personal achievements.

We are all social creatures and we need companionship, we need to feel like we belong and that we are part of a community, but most of us are incapable of learning the skills required. Our brains don’t work that way.

Agree in some respects. However, this has been my experience with this:

On one hand, I now know I am autistic and that may have some explanation for my professional life with regards to others who have a higher hierarchal status than myself. Furthermore, I have no idea what others think of me, with exception of those relatively rare occasions where I am verbally complemented in some way. In my career, I spent most of my professional free time hanging around with the physicians and befriended many of them, occasionally sitting in their office discussing things, including our now CEO, as well as, some of the top surgeons and researchers in the US, and even the world. I even had a rather famous (within the community) pediatric cardiac surgeon (who happened to be on the autism spectrum) demand complete silence in his OR suite, even stopping a surgery and staring down an anesthesiologist at the head of the bed for being "chatty". However, if I was in the OR with him, running our neonatal ventilator, we both could be engaged in a rather quiet, private conversation, much to the bewilderment of the OR team that day. In private, I never referred to any physician by "Dr. _____", but rather by their first name, and I would joke with and tease them as if they were an equal. For the most part, I never got the sense that they were offended by this, in fact, that relationship provided opportunities to discuss our ideas and commit them to action, for both myself, and them. Furthermore, my knowledge and continual research that I would share made me a resource for them. I would become a physician instructor to young interns and residents during patient care rounds, and the lead attending would often give me time to do that. If I was in front of a patient's family, I always referred to them as "Dr. ______", so I do have an understanding of hierarchy.

On the other hand, I know there has some expressed frustration with all of this amongst my professional peers. Most blatantly when a physician would look at them and ask if I would be available to do something that they were fully capable of doing themselves. It smacked of disrespect in their minds. Then there is the fact that because of my self study habits and internal drive, I actually do know more than my peers, and physicians would make special requests that I do things, and not my peers. The CEO of our children's hospital, when he would be acting attending physician in the ICU, freely admitted that he looks at his team on for the shift and then decides if he can actually perform certain interventions or not. If he has the "A" team on, we are going to push the boundaries, and perhaps publish a paper about our experience, and we have a number of times. If he has the "B" team on, we aren't going to try anything like that at all.

My experience with this phenomenon, this ignoring of hierarchy (at least in private), treating everyone the same, has resulted in some positives and negatives. Clearly, I've been able to interact with individuals above my professional station with rather ease and even privilege. On the other hand, my neurotypical peers often expressed their frustration with the situation, and in some cases, lead to some degree of marginalization amongst them.

 

[Outdated]

On the other hand, I know there has some expressed frustration with all of this amongst my professional peers.

This is similar to what I found. In my trade professional respect counted for more than anything else and there was very little social hierarchy involved except for some individuals, usually middle management.

As my trade died out I ended up taking on all sorts of different jobs and found myself in an entirely different world. One I was unable to navigate.

[Edit] I didn't know anything about autism back then. I burnt out big time and haven't worked for 15 years.

 

[Au Naturel]

I have usually been the omega dog of whatever social structure I've been in. Even when I had the highest level of competence in an area, the guy who best swam the social currents became the leader. People will almost always follow the person who makes them feel the best about themselves before anyone else. There has to be a vast gap in ability before competence becomes the decisive factor.

I could sometimes become the leader's advisor if I weren't confrontational about it. Not always, because some leader-types have big egos and won't consider advice that doesn't match what they already want to do. But, if you look at the role of a leader, most leaders want to succeed practically in addition to being the top dog socially. They will listen if what you say makes sense and you are not trying to claim the spotlight for yourself.

This happened in the military and aerospace a lot. There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you let someone else take all the credit.

 

[Progster]

Totally agree. I tried working in a school at one point, and it was a disaster. It's one of the worst environments for autistic people. It was that which lead to my breakdown and being diagnosed with Asperger's.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you let someone else take all the credit.

Agree. There are times when you have to ask yourself, "Do I need the credit, or do I just need to get it done?" Sometimes, it's a bit of "seed planting" behavior in the sense that sometimes the leader just has it in their head, right or wrong, that they are going to do something, and I will let them, within reason, but not without giving them an alternate plan, as well. My usual response would be to just remind them of plan "B" (my plan) if all does not go as planned. Now, I often would have the "top 10" reasons why their plan was going to fail, most likely because I had information that they didn't. In my world, some physicians, when they get an idea in their head, you aren't going to sway them, despite your protests. That's reality. However, if you can "plant that seed" of a new idea in their head, even if it takes a day or two, you can usually get what you want.

 

[Aneka]

This is something I've struggled to put in to words for many years. I still don't think I have it quite right though and would appreciate feedback.

-----

Hierarchal Social Structures


Most people live with and require a hierarchal structure in their social groups. There will be a leader of the group, second rank, third rank, etc. right down to the lowliest and newest member of the group. Most people seem to be able to navigate these structures of hierarchy with ease and effortlessly place themselves in the correct rank without even realising that they are doing so.

Ref: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0440

Most autistic people are unable to live like this. We often do not recognise the social cues that I believe must exist there somewhere and instead we tend to treat all people as our equals. This causes no problems for people that consider themselves to be lower ranking within a group but it irritates and frustrates people that consider themselves to be our betters.

It irritates and frustrates us too because we refuse to be meekly put in our place, in truth we don’t even understand that we have a place to be put in. This always leads to conflict, most obvious as children in a school yard but more problematic in a work place environment. People that refuse to meekly accept their place within a hierarchal structure will be bullied and victimised by most other members of the group until they relent and accept their place. No matter how high functioning autistic people are it seems we are simply not capable of doing this.

I was lucky in my early life in that I learnt a physical trade. In a trade environment social status is acquired by productivity. By skill, knowledge, ability, quality of work produced, speed at which work is produced, and reliability. This was a form of hierarchy that I understood and worked well with. Although I had social issues with some employers I was highly valued and usually exempted from having to try and fit in with any other form of social hierarchy.

It wasn’t until my trade (printing) started to die out and I had to work in other environments that I began to realise just how protected I had been. At this time I knew nothing about autism and I really struggled to cope with the world I found myself in. It was many years later before I began to understand what had happened to me.

This hierarchal structure affects many different aspects of our lives, including access to medical help. Most doctors believe they rank highly in a societal hierarchy because they have a PhD, and they seem naturally offended by high functioning autistic people who don’t meekly submit to that structure. I have had problems with doctors most of my life because of the way they react to me. I speak very clearly and describe what I believe is wrong politely and eloquently but most doctors have a knee jerk reaction to my lack of deference.

They will listen attentively to what I am saying and then deliberately go out of their way to prove me wrong, to prove that they are smarter than me and higher ranking in society than me. They will completely ignore all of my symptoms and go against all medical training and even defy logic in order to try and make me accept that they are of a higher social rank than me. Misdiagnosis is guaranteed.

I have met a few doctors over the years who don’t live by this hierarchal structure and have no social issues with me, I have found those doctors to be very clever, insightful and helpful. Those doctors are extremely rare though and as I get older I find myself having less and less faith in the medical profession in general.

An inability to navigate complex social hierarchies also dramatically affects our social lives. Most of us tend to only have one or two close friends and prefer to socialise in one on one situations. This negates most of the need for a form of hierarchy. Other social relationships tend to be kept more at arm’s length because we struggle to fit in and find our place. This also shows in the sports we tend to prefer, avoiding team situations and mostly aiming for personal achievements.

We are all social creatures and we need companionship, we need to feel like we belong and that we are part of a community, but most of us are incapable of learning the skills required. Our brains don’t work that way.

I always trample all over their group dynamics/ hierachy and become the outcast. It's not even intentional.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

This is something I've struggled to put in to words for many years. I still don't think I have it quite right though and would appreciate feedback.

-----

Hierarchal Social Structures


Most people live with and require a hierarchal structure in their social groups. There will be a leader of the group, second rank, third rank, etc. right down to the lowliest and newest member of the group. Most people seem to be able to navigate these structures of hierarchy with ease and effortlessly place themselves in the correct rank without even realising that they are doing so.

Ref: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0440

Most autistic people are unable to live like this. We often do not recognise the social cues that I believe must exist there somewhere and instead we tend to treat all people as our equals. This causes no problems for people that consider themselves to be lower ranking within a group but it irritates and frustrates people that consider themselves to be our betters.

It irritates and frustrates us too because we refuse to be meekly put in our place, in truth we don’t even understand that we have a place to be put in. This always leads to conflict, most obvious as children in a school yard but more problematic in a work place environment. People that refuse to meekly accept their place within a hierarchal structure will be bullied and victimised by most other members of the group until they relent and accept their place. No matter how high functioning autistic people are it seems we are simply not capable of doing this.

I was lucky in my early life in that I learnt a physical trade. In a trade environment social status is acquired by productivity. By skill, knowledge, ability, quality of work produced, speed at which work is produced, and reliability. This was a form of hierarchy that I understood and worked well with. Although I had social issues with some employers I was highly valued and usually exempted from having to try and fit in with any other form of social hierarchy.

It wasn’t until my trade (printing) started to die out and I had to work in other environments that I began to realise just how protected I had been. At this time I knew nothing about autism and I really struggled to cope with the world I found myself in. It was many years later before I began to understand what had happened to me.

This hierarchal structure affects many different aspects of our lives, including access to medical help. Most doctors believe they rank highly in a societal hierarchy because they have a PhD, and they seem naturally offended by high functioning autistic people who don’t meekly submit to that structure. I have had problems with doctors most of my life because of the way they react to me. I speak very clearly and describe what I believe is wrong politely and eloquently but most doctors have a knee jerk reaction to my lack of deference.

They will listen attentively to what I am saying and then deliberately go out of their way to prove me wrong, to prove that they are smarter than me and higher ranking in society than me. They will completely ignore all of my symptoms and go against all medical training and even defy logic in order to try and make me accept that they are of a higher social rank than me. Misdiagnosis is guaranteed.

I have met a few doctors over the years who don’t live by this hierarchal structure and have no social issues with me, I have found those doctors to be very clever, insightful and helpful. Those doctors are extremely rare though and as I get older I find myself having less and less faith in the medical profession in general.

An inability to navigate complex social hierarchies also dramatically affects our social lives. Most of us tend to only have one or two close friends and prefer to socialise in one on one situations. This negates most of the need for a form of hierarchy. Other social relationships tend to be kept more at arm’s length because we struggle to fit in and find our place. This also shows in the sports we tend to prefer, avoiding team situations and mostly aiming for personal achievements.

We are all social creatures and we need companionship, we need to feel like we belong and that we are part of a community, but most of us are incapable of learning the skills required. Our brains don’t work that way.

Your right I've never accepted social structures even formal ones. like in companies. If I think a manager is incorrect, I will debate them. same as you doctors do not impress me, credentials same thing.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Outdated

If you're still interested in developing your personal model of social structures, a suggestion:

Take a look at Evolutionary Psychology.

Evolutionary psychology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It doesn't map exactly onto the topic of this thread, but there's a significant overlap.

FWIW I found the wikipedia article a bit academic in style: it covers history, fundamental principles, context within the larger domain of psychology, different prevailing theories, research methods, criticisms, etc ... but they've forgotten to put in an accessible overview that describes it's core distinguishing characteristics, interesting discoveries and insights, and their relevance to modern thinking.

I'm still looking into it, so I can't fill the gap, but some ideas: broadly you could see it as looking at evolutionary pressures for explanations and new insights for how and why people think and act socially. Clearly this is linked to human hierarchies and small to medium levels of organization (not large - most evolution was before "the era of cities").

So the underlying scale is (small) tribal, and a significant tool is observing and analyzing current behaviors in terms of reproductive success in the context of hunter/gatherer societies.

I thought of it because it explains something (1 below) that took up a good part of my earlier post, and something (2 & 3) I deleted from it.

1. You can find in evolutionary psychology good reasons for the differences in what I suggested are different natural organizations in groups of women vs groups of men
2. Similarly it provides the simplest way I've ever come across to understand to explain the weird but extremely effective way men "organically" form small teams to get things done, and the nature of the inter-personal links that develop in different kinds of teams.
3. There should be a paragraph about the "organic" female equivalent of teams of men "on a mission", but I'm an Aspie male. Evolutionary psychology has explanations for the distinct styles inter-personal interactions that exist among female-centric groups, but I have negligible personal experience if it

BTW there's plenty more in evolutionary psychology, but I'm just starting with it. I have already found its explanatory power very useful, but I can't see myself ever learning enough to be able to e.g. improve the wikipedia article

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

This is similar to what I found. In my trade professional respect counted for more than anything else and there was very little social hierarchy involved except for some individuals, usually middle management.
As my trade died out I ended up taking on all sorts of different jobs and found myself in an entirely different world. One I was unable to navigate.

[Edit] I didn't know anything about autism back then. I burnt out big time and haven't worked for 15 years.

Knowing your background could have been a great fit where I was probably would have had to relearn so stuff as we did not do conventional printing. I rewrote many established rules As I was a paint expert when I started there no previous experience in printing. Some stuff taken as gospel in not correct. We could have had some real fun. Two Aspies not being aware. here are two fallacies, it is not possible to make ink without white pigment, second. You cannot make batch to back to batch colour matches if they are Years apart forget it you must buy from the same coil if it still exists.

 

[Luca]

I think this is 100% true. I always end up at the bottom of the social hierarchy in any friend group that I'm in, even though I am often well-liked otherwise, and I clearly have a strong and somewhat bold personality and I'm pretty extroverted. But in social groups I often end up taking a backseat to someone who is more popular and socially intelligent, whether I intend to or not.

I think it's just impossible for me (and a lot of other autistic people) to fit into traditional social norms, and we are often mistreated because of this, even by friends, although sometimes they don't realize they're doing it.

I often end up being the "last resort" friend, who everyone loves to invite to parties and social gatherings and activities because I'm fun and lively, but I'm usually the last person they reach out to when they want to spend quality time with someone. I also tend to get the least amount of one on one attention in a group.

I think my lack of interest in drinking alcohol at parties and on nights out contributes to this, because then people see me as a buzzkill or a prude. I just, 1.) don't really like drinking and rarely see a point to it, and 2.) I take an anticonvulsant and a blood pressure medication, so it's really hard to fit drinking into a time slot where it won't interfere with my meds.

@Outdated Thank you for this very insightful post, I think it is spot-on. It is also super nice to see you again! I hope all is well

 

[Outdated]

I always trample all over their group dynamics/ hierachy and become the outcast. It's not even intentional.

Exactly the trouble I have. I have a healthy ego and this is often seen as a challenge by people higher in the hierarchy. Even though I don't actually challenge them they see it that way.

From my point of view I'm just talking to people and having fun then someone decides to pick on me. I have a quick temper and don't like being abused so all of a sudden the challenge becomes real and sometimes even physical.

 

[Outdated]

I rewrote many established rules As I was a paint expert when I started there no previous experience in printing.

Printing wasn't just my trade, for many years it was my special interest as well. By trade I was a Lithographic printer but I also did Gravure and Letterpress.

You're an interesting person and I think we might have worked well together if the opportunity had arisen.

You cannot make batch to back to batch colour matches if they are Years apart forget it you must buy from the same coil if it still exists.

I can match them, that was one of my talents.

 

[Outdated]

I think my lack of interest in drinking alcohol at parties and on nights out contributes to this, because then people see me as a buzzkill or a prude.

This dynamic changes as you get older. Most of your friends will start realising that they have other priorities and responsibilities and the interest in pubs and clubs will dissipate.

When I was your age was when all of my friends started settling down with partners and having children, then I was seen as the playboy that would never settle down and a bad influence on my friends.

 

[Shamar]

You seem to have explained it well. A hierarchy like a pecking order seems to be a good analogy, One thing you missed is that in most hierarchies, there is a capability of moving up (or down). Autistics seem to be shunted to the bottom and stay there, even if they should be higher up (due to talent, knowledge, skills).

I was sometimes able to move up the hierarchy (temporarily). "We need a new type of sensor that has never been built before. It needs to be waterproof to better than 200 feet and fit down a 5 inch borehole." "You finished that new sensor ahead or time? Wonderful! Congratulations! Our information was wrong, it needs to fit down a 4 inch borehole, not a 5. It needs to be ready in two days" "You fixed an electronic failure none of our electronic engineers could figure out? Wonderful. Thank you. Off you go." "You have completed a four month hellish nightmare of a project under nearly impossible conditions. Unfortunately, you burned yourself out so badly, you are no longer of use to us. We're going to let you go. Too bad. Only two more months and you would have been fully vested in the retirement program."