DSM-5 says that we have difficulties understanding what is not explicitly stated.

[Au Naturel]

Yes indeed, and I watch them thinking I am stupid and wonder about how narrow and limited their viewpoints are. There's a limit to the usefulness of social conventions and norms. We may be uneven but being unable to accept our limitations makes them miss out on our abilities and strengths.

Social conventions and norms are a way of avoiding overhead. It makes communication far more efficient for the people who understand the conventions and read between the lines. There's nothing nefarious about that.

It also allows for plausible deniability. "I didn't literally say "that," you read an invalid meaning into what I said." Most NTs don't use that last reason unless they get into trouble and are scrambling for a way out. Politicials and lawyers do it all the time.

 

[Kit]

It also allows for plausible deniability. "I didn't literally say "that," you read an invalid meaning into what I said." Most NTs don't use that last reason unless they get into trouble and are scrambling for a way out. Politicials and lawyers do it all the time.

Funny enough I find myself saying this pretty often online but only because people twist my words and I look online to see how to deal with people twisting my words and all the results seemed to be telling me everyone is abusive and a narcissist. It's like they were saying "regular people don't twist your words. Anyone who does is an abuser or a narcissist."

My son will twist my words.

For example:

Me: Please stop making so much noise

Him: I can't play and do anything (and starts wailing)

But he is a kid so I am sure kids do this to test their limits and see what they can get away with. So I don't get pissed about it because he is a child. But yet my daughter doesn't twist my words and she is younger. My son does this pretty quite often.

BTW I also notice lot of word twisting happens in political arguments and debates.

I will even say online "I am on the spectrum so what I say is literal, nothing to read in between" when someone tries to twist my words.

 

[Deepthought]

DSM-5 says that we have difficulties understanding what is not explicitly stated.
Doesn't non-autistic people also need things explicitly stated?

There is the 'Cross Neurological (or Double Empathy) Hypothesis' by Milton and Beardon that addresses this issue, which was summarised by Chown in his paper 'More On The Ontological Status Of Autism And Double Empathy' as follows:

(1) non-autistic people appear to have as much difficulty in understanding autistic minds as vice versa;

(2) autistic people often develop a greater understanding of society than non-autistic people develop of autism; and

(3) autistic people have a similar ability to empathise with other autistic people as non-autistic people have with their peers.

Milton does not suggest that non-autistic people are less capable of developing an understanding of autism than vice versa; as he points out, it is simply that autistic people have no choice but to try to develop an understanding of society if they are to ‘survive and potentially thrive’ whereas no such imperative applies in the opposite direction (Milton 2012).

 

[Matthias]

Funny enough I find myself saying this pretty often online but only because people twist my words and I look online to see how to deal with people twisting my words and all the results seemed to be telling me everyone is abusive and a narcissist. It's like they were saying "regular people don't twist your words. Anyone who does is an abuser or a narcissist."

My son will twist my words.

For example:

Me: Please stop making so much noise

Him: I can't play and do anything (and starts wailing)

But he is a kid so I am sure kids do this to test their limits and see what they can get away with. So I don't get pissed about it because he is a child. But yet my daughter doesn't twist my words and she is younger. My son does this pretty quite often.

BTW I also notice lot of word twisting happens in political arguments and debates.

I will even say online "I am on the spectrum so what I say is literal, nothing to read in between" when someone tries to twist my words.

When people misunderstood me, I used to think they deliberately twisted my words or wondered whether they were stupid. I've since learned it's due to emotions. Autistic people do the same thing, just in different situations since people are triggered by different things. I used to think I interpreted everything literally but when people criticized me, I often got upset and thought people were being mean to me. When I told others, I was accused of twisting their words which I thought was a false accusation. In reality, the emotions I felt, affected my thinking which caused me to misunderstand them.

When you told your son to stop making so much noise, he probably thought about all the things he likes to do that make noise that he can't do. That probably made him upset which caused him to feel like he couldn't do anything. He wasn't twisting your words. He was expressing how he felt.

 

[Bolletje]

For me it really depends on who it is I’m talking to. If it’s someone I know well, I often don’t need them to state explicitly what they need from me because I know their communication style. But when discussing serious matters, or work, I really need explicit instructions.

 

[Au Naturel]

Well... sometimes when they twist words, they really do mean to lie. I see this in political ads all the time but I also see it between ordinary people who don't get along or where one is trying to take advantage of another. I suppose lawyers in court do it all the time but at least the lwayer for the other side can raise an objection - if they catch it. Usually a logical fallacy of some sort but an intentional one.

And sometimes it really is unintentional. Embracing logical fallcies seems like a way of life among some people. When an Aspie says something they usually mean exactly what the literal words and grammar mean. But NTs feed most communications they may send or receive thru a secret NT decoder ring. When they try to decrypt a message that was never encrypted to start with, the result is often not what was said.

 

[Au Naturel]

I find the notion that NT talk is "fake" to be toxic. "Fake" is a strongly negative term - it requires intent to deceive. There are occasions where someone might be attempting to deceive but that would apply to NT on NT deception as well.

It is like a color-blind person accusing a person of normal vision of being "fake" because they are using a common color the color-blind person can't see. You can't expect people with normal vision to give up a portion of their spectrum because a small number of people can't see it.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

DSM-5 says that we have difficulties understanding what is not explicitly stated.
Doesn't non-autistic people also need things explicitly stated?
To me "explicitly stated" sounds like "non-political way of speaking".
I talked with a professional (who works with autistic people like me) about this. We came to the conclusion that non-austic might miss a lot and get confused & frustrated when they don't explicitly state something. Sure, they might be more flexible so they don't always need things to be explicitly stated even if that would be much better.
What do you think?

Them shrinks sure are funny!

Maybe it is that we don't take a leap of faith about what other people want without them telling us... maybe we can't read them. All I know is that most NTs do not communicate verbally about what they want or need in this world and I find that highly dysfunctional. Their facial/non-verbal communication is often highly idiosyncratic so maybe they should learn from us. They are always making an "Ass out of U and Me".

Important feelings, thoughts, needs, wants and "unwants" should be verbalized. NTs rely too much on that ol' "Theory of mind". But, hey, it keeps marriage counselors employed!

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

 

[Tony Ramirez]

I can communicate with one person but in a group of a few people I usually say nothing and fall apart then I usually walk away. Heck I am doing this very thing right now while I am typing this post.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

When I was a kid, I was very bad at this I was not even allowed in homes because I did stuff I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do because no one ever told me I needed permission to play with some set where you make gummies and it had to be done in the kitchen. I have even been not allowed in homes because of me not knowing their rules.



There have been NTs kids my brothers knew who also needed things stated to them by my parents because they were never taught how to behave in peoples homes. They came from dysfunctional homes and had also been banned from homes as well because they did something and didn't know they weren't supposed to do it. One thing I learned on Reddit that shocked me is people thinking it's okay to raid someone's fridge as a guest. I had been taught as a kid this is very rude and if you a uninvited guest, it's rude to ask for food. Unless you have been invited to stay, it is fine to ask for something to eat but not raid their kitchen. This must be cultural because if someone did that to my house, I would be very upset and appalled that someone would find this okay and not let them back in my home if they thought this was acceptable. If they thought this was okay, I would wonder what else are they going to do in my home?

This reminds me so much of my childhood... I knew nothing about anything. When a door to a house was open... I might just walk in. I always said the wrong things... oh... when answering the telephone, I would just pick it up and listen because they called so they needed to speak first.

I was always curious. I constantly got caught naked with the neighborhood girls playing doctor. I lost friends because I would end up doing this with their older sisters. It was always mutual and I always asked or was asked so I had no idea what I was doing wrong. My mother really created some nasty mental scars because of this and to this day she thinks I am a pervert. Even at that young age... I totally got consent (most times girls initiated), so I never did anything hurtful. In fact I have been afraid of hurting people since I was a kid.

I cannot imagine raiding a fridge though... that seems very rude compared to my "bad" behaviors. Still... I was not allowed in many homes... especially of friends who had sisters.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Haha... I had a friendship that I really liked fall apart because of this! I think she was hinting that she wanted an affair. That is what it means when a female coworker invites a male coworker to drinks alone... maybe? Anyway, I don't think I wanted that even though I found her quite attractive and even if we were both single... I need words and communication before I feel comfortable with anyone in that way... it leaves the possibility for something less than fully consensual and agreed upon! (with a woman totally like me (EC+U+*), I would not need words but those are far and few between, she is C+U+S)

It all blew up when I asked her about her facial expressions... basically that horrible disapproval face. Everything seemed to be going great... she invited me for a drink... then started making the mean face at work after vacation. I explained that I do not read faces, I do not read between the lines, I do not get hints and do not give hints. I have a very vague idea of what certain behaviors mean. That made her even more angry. We did not speak for over a month. It was awful.

I look NT to them for some reason so... "hey... I am on the autism spectrum!" just sounds like an excuse.

 

[Cailan Tangaroa]

On the topic of work-related instructions and work organization, I have a story to tell. In a job I once had in a media website, we had to prepare and publish articles for Amazon prime day. I mean, lists of deals we should publish. Also compilations of deals.

During the entire event, I didn’t know what to do, when, who will be responsible for what etc, at the end of the event my boss sent out a survey for feedback and I stated our work organization sucked and nobody knew what to do and that there were no clear instructions.

Later on, in a meeting with all employees, my boss said that this time our work organization was the best and that he’s really proud of everyone... and everyone agreed the organization and instructions were great. Apart from me. I thought the entire thing was terrible.

I guess I will never understand NT instructions.

 

[GrownupGirl]

You're right about the political thing. Whenever I hear people discuss politics or hear politicians speak it's like I'm a space alien trying to understand the strange sounds these inferior Earthling humans are making in an attempt to communicate. Even reading about it makes no sense to me.

Social Studies was my worst subject at school. Nothing but boring and confusing historical politics.