Do autism 'experts' really think that we have little or no empathy??

[SageRose]

Yes but can we please clarify what those experts mean? They mean as I have been saying Cognitive not Emotional Empathy. They mean we have trouble figuring out how others feel not that we don't care!

Well I couldn't possibly know what they meant because in none of the posts or writings I've read, was it ever clarified if they mean the cognitive empathy or the emotional one. They were simply refering to 'empathy' in general. I agree with you that they probably might have not meant what I thought they meant, but that is how it came out so that's why I posted it. And I don't think autism is a made up disease. First of all, it's a way too cleared up situation with specific traits and characteristics for it to be a made up thing. And secondly it isn't a disease. It's a difference in the way people's brains function and affect their behavior and understanding of the world around them, with some cases having more intense behaviors. But I don't feel that autistics should compensate for who they are by believing that they're either too 'ill' or too 'perfect'. None of those beliefs are doing any good to our self knowledge and self esteem. We are who we are, with pros and cons as with the rest of the world. We're neither 'diseased' nor 'too perfect for the world'. Lots of people are altruists without being autistics, your statement might confuse some as to what you meant by that.

 

[GCat3000]

I don't believe that Autism is made up as in Autistic People don't exist. I believe there is a better word for what we are. We're highly intelligent Altruist not some weird thing on the fringe. For lack of better words our medicalization is a Conspiracy born from the fact that capitalism needs to classify things which were once healthy in Christian Society. Read Ayn Rand and the Bible. Jesus is basically an Autistic Man and Ayn Rand is a female sociopath. They are basically opposites and now that Ayn Rand is supposedly healthy Jesus needs to be sick!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I don't believe that Autism is made up as in Autistic People don't exist. I believe there is a better word for what we are. We're highly intelligent Altruist not some weird thing on the fringe. For lack of better words our medicalization is a Conspiracy born from the fact that capitalism needs to classify things which were once healthy in Christian Society. Read Ayn Rand and the Bible. Jesus is basically an Autistic Man and Ayn Rand is a female sociopath. They are basically opposites and now that Ayn Rand is supposedly healthy Jesus needs to be sick!

Some of us are dumb.

 

[WildCat]

So-called experts who emphasize the negatives of ASD don't bother me a single bit. If they can't at least be objective and see the whole, I'm not going to waste my energy dealing with them.

They could come to a forum like this one, have a closer look and maybe refine their conclusions, but I'm not counting on any progress to be made.

 

[NTGUY]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with my ASD partner the last time I saw him. I was really sad that I was leaving. I keep thinking about how much I was going to miss him and did not want to leave. He showed no emotion over the fact I was about to leave though. I described to him the feelings I was having and how it affected me and he told me that he knows that goodbyes are never fun because he has seen a lot of them but that he doesn't feel anything emotional about them. He also mentioned that he is emotionless and can't feel anything bad or good. I know this is not true because i have seen where he has felt the good and bad in things but it does make me think a lot about it. He does seem rather cold and heartless sometimes coming from an NT perspective so i can see where someone could say he lacks empathy but i have also seen him show a lot of empathy before so i know this is not true.

 

[Danno]

This annoys me. Maybe those on the spectrum don't express empathy in the same ways as those who aren't on it, but it's because we just don't know how to "correctly" interpret the emotions involved and then respond to them in an adequate way.

Not sure about anyone else, but I quite often "feel" the negativity perhaps moreso than the other person, which then really brings me down because I don't know how to let go of the emotions... Like, if a family member is having a mildly bad day, I can "feel" the bad day 10 times worse with no apparent justification.

I never used to understand this, but I did read an article once that said for some on the spectrum, it can be common to be much more "feely" about others emotions than the average neurotypical even if you can't then react to them or whatever, because the brain goes into overdrive trying to make sense of it all and process it.

 

[Shamar]

As if they have chosen to refuse to acknowledge high-functioning aspects of autism.

High functioning people who they can understand is one thing; they have no problem with that. High functioning people with equal or even greater intellectual capacity who they cannot understand are a threat. It is a lot easier to keep us down than to make an effort to understand us. Thus, we are shuffled out.

Temple Grandin is one who overcame this, mainly by being extremely (economically) useful. Her talent made a lot of money for other people, so her quirks were overlooked.

 

[MonolithImmortal]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with my ASD partner the last time I saw him. I was really sad that I was leaving. I keep thinking about how much I was going to miss him and did not want to leave. He showed no emotion over the fact I was about to leave though. I described to him the feelings I was having and how it affected me and he told me that he knows that goodbyes are never fun because he has seen a lot of them but that he doesn't feel anything emotional about them. He also mentioned that he is emotionless and can't feel anything bad or good. I know this is not true because i have seen where he has felt the good and bad in things but it does make me think a lot about it. He does seem rather cold and heartless sometimes coming from an NT perspective so i can see where someone could say he lacks empathy but i have also seen him show a lot of empathy before so i know this is not true.

It sounds like he probably is alexithymic (emotion blind). A lot of autistic people deal with varying degrees of emotion blindness, myself included. I've had to do a lot of work to have access to my own emotions, and have to pay careful attention to the physical sensations in my body to know what I might be feeling or not. And often, I don't know how I feel until my feelings reach a certain threshold.

Alexithymia - Wikipedia

 

[Autistamatic]

Obviously many of my thoughts on this topic are expressed in the video series kindly linked by @Pats previously but there are a few things that have occurred to me or been mentioned since that are relevant.
The first thing I would point out is that whenever we read the words of "experts" on autism online it's worth noting when they were written. Scientific opinions on autism are a rapidly changing field but articles often don't get taken down or updated when the consensus changes.
That said there is undoubtedly a lack of consistency between professionals and there are some who still profess to being experts even with outdated or inaccurate ideas.
Those who are more up to date are aware that empathy, both affective and cognitive is not absent in many autistic people and in others it is present in varying degrees. One of the reasons women went largely undiagnosed for so long is because so many autistic girls demonstrate fully functional empathy. It's also becoming more widely accepted that many of us systemise social interactions and there are a few of us who do it very well and at a speed that allows us to go under the radar much of the time.
The last observation came from someone else but struck me as very salient. Some professionals and certainly a large proportion of the public often misuse the word "empathy" when "compassion" would be more appropriate. Whilst many of us are deeply compassionate there are also many of us who don't express it in conventional ways. Since half of us are alexithymic too that compounds our awkwardness and social unease by having difficulty putting our feelings into words. The lack of obvious signs of compassion can be interpreted as being cold or emotionally dislocated which then gets reported as a lack of empathy when it is in fact the display of our feelings that "does not compute" in the minds of both "experts" and direct observers. That comes down to both a lack of understanding of how we communicate, as judge was saying, and a poor understanding of the semantics of the word "empathy" by the people passing comment on us.

 

[Pats]

This annoys me. Maybe those on the spectrum don't express empathy in the same ways as those who aren't on it, but it's because we just don't know how to "correctly" interpret the emotions involved and then respond to them in an adequate way.

Not sure about anyone else, but I quite often "feel" the negativity perhaps moreso than the other person, which then really brings me down because I don't know how to let go of the emotions... Like, if a family member is having a mildly bad day, I can "feel" the bad day 10 times worse with no apparent justification.

I never used to understand this, but I did read an article once that said for some on the spectrum, it can be common to be much more "feely" about others emotions than the average neurotypical even if you can't then react to them or whatever, because the brain goes into overdrive trying to make sense of it all and process it.

And, as with my kids, they are fine the next morning and we're still NOT.

 

[Ginseng]

Sounds like Alexithymia. Some autistic people have this. Where as some of us feel so deeply it causes us great pain.

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with my ASD partner of empathy before so i know this is not true.

 

[Nonny]

I recently had reason to go looking for a better understanding of AS. It might be worth noting that I don’t think I have AS.

What I turned up with an initial google search led me to think that AS is characterized by a lack of empathy (ergo an inability to love or even care about others?). I’ll confess to a knee-jerk sense of unrelatable “otherness,” which doesn’t say anything good about me, and I’m afraid that might be an unfortunately, unfairly, unacceptably too-common, unexamined reaction.

But I did question whether it was accurate. I wanted to hear about the AS experience from those who could tell about it firsthand. I discovered this site and was astonished by the kindness, understanding, and generosity here, not just as a contrast to the description but in comparison with most any other community with which I’m familiar. I’d say there’s no lack of empathy here, and if someone cared to argue with that, surely it could only be over semantics.

It must be difficult to be faced with misunderstandings created by inaccurate or insufficient, basic descriptions of AS that many people turn to for information. Do you have ideas about how this could be addressed? Perhaps it would help if people had a better understanding of the ways diagnosticians split hairs over ‘empathy’ as well as the experience of AS. My understanding is that many (maybe most) here feel that this community is for folks on the spectrum and not meant to educate others. I would never question your right to define your community, but I will tell you that this has been a far-and-away better source of understanding than anything else I found. Actually, I think that the other sources caused me to misunderstand. Do you have a sense of whether it’s used by professionals (diagnosticians, clinicians, advocates of different types, etc.) to gain understanding? Would that be welcome?

I’m not claiming that I understand well enough to come up with a great analogy, but here’s an impression that came upon me as I read about some of your experiences. It seems as if, in some situations, your emotions are contained in an insulated vessel, and it’s difficult for anything (at least anything recognizable between those who do and those who don’t experience this) to pass through.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

It seems as if, in some situations, your emotions are contained in an insulated vessel, and it’s difficult for anything (at least anything recognizable between those who do and those who don’t experience this) to pass through.

To use a phrase ,which we're not supposed to understand, an empty vessel makes the loudest noise.

I often think we're defined by what you expect .
Culturally and socially.

Like the story the emperor's new clothes - but with a twist.
The guy with Asperger's is wearing clothes.
Everybody else is naked trying to convince each other they're not.

 

[SusanLR]

There have been many discussions and threads on the empathy subject.
I was very confused when first diagnosed also and had such a low number on the EQ test score.
After several questionings of my therapist and on-line research, I finally got the idea of empathy and
what it is.
The answer was easily understood after finding out about the three different types and which ones are
lacking or prevelent.

• Emotional empathy—The ability to understand what a person is experiencing based on personal experience and understanding built from that. This is often referred to as “hot empathy.” When you feel physically along with the other person, as though their emotions were contagious.

• Compassionate empathy—Understanding a person’s predicament and feeling with them, but being spontaneously moved to help, if needed.

• Cognitive empathy—Simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking. This can be learned from observation and extrapolation. This is also called “cold empathy".

Autistics can have all three, but, mainly the first: Emotional, also called affective.
When you feel physically along with the other person as if their emotions were contagious.
And the second, compassionate, where you want to jump in and help.

Cognitive is what the experts refer to as difficult for ASD.
Simply knowing from observation and extrapolation.

Psycopaths lack the emotional/affective type and are strong in the cognitive which makes them
perfect manipulators as they can act out affective empathy even if they don't feel it.
Thus gaining trust.

You can score low in the test if you don't have cognitive.
Doesn't mean you are a sociopath if you have the first two.
IMO the test should be broken down into scores on each aspect then it would be
truly reflective of the individual.

Autistics usually have the emotional and compassionate empathy, but, may lack the
cognitive ability type. The exact opposite of the psychopath and would be hard pressed
to put on an act of emotional empathy for manipulation.

Of course as with anything they can over lap.
I wonder how many psychopathic autists there are?
I've never seen a study or article on that.

 

[Autistamatic]

I wonder how many psychopathic autists there are?
I've never seen a study or article on that.

There are undoubtedly some. I have met one myself (a very difficult character who leads multiple lives online) and I've heard reports of others. It's a potentially very dangerous combination.

Actually, I think that the other sources caused me to misunderstand. Do you have a sense of whether it’s used by professionals (diagnosticians, clinicians, advocates of different types, etc.) to gain understanding? Would that be welcome

Very few professionals, including those who work for autism advocacy charities openly use forums like this. Even the vocal citizen advocates like myself who use Twitter, Instagram etc.. and/or use online blogs or YouTube to spread the message rarely seem to even know of this community. Those of us that do, sometimes only post in order to publicise our works. It's only because this community is so supportive and friendly that I became so active and made friends here.
Amongst professionals there is a widespread (though not unanimous) opinion that autistic people don't really know what's best for us. They make the observations, they do not want to be told. The idea that we may have learned things about ourselves and our fellows from our own lives and interacting with others on the spectrum is often dismissed or even reacted to as threatening. Our lack of qualification and training may be used as justification to ignore our understanding of observations as nonsense or at best a curiosity.
This is starting to change though. Many researchers and autism charities have been inviting autistic people to assist in their research, to work for them and sit on their boards. Whilst academics and autism parents are still far better represented than we are ourselves, the balance is slowly shifting. There have even been a few post on here asking for our participation in their research.
I think that many researchers who frequented this forum and learned valuable insights chose to share them, would likely only do so when they were in a position to take personal credit for them. The community would not be the source, but the survey/tests they did based on their flash of scientific intuition.
BTW - for anyone that hasn't noticed, there are usually at least 3 times as many "guests" viewing this site as members at any given time, so there is clearly a significant amount of traffic from people asking questions who choose not to engage.

 

[Ginseng]

Are those actual people or are many of them bots?

for anyone that hasn't noticed, there are usually at least 3 times as many "guests" viewing this site as members at any given time, so there is clearly a significant amount of traffic from people asking questions who choose not to engage.

 

[Judge]

Are those actual people or are many of them bots?

Good question, technically speaking. The system is designed to differentiate real users from bots and lists them accordingly. However these days there's no telling how many malicious bots are out there specifically designed to fool/skew the analytics. Though I like to think the host handles such concerns reasonably well.

In general I've noticed for several years here the high number of guests who choose only to lurk. Stands to reason. People who are looking for answers without interaction. No telling just how many people out there are terribly reticent to take the plunge and directly interact with us. It's understandable.

 

[SageRose]

There have been many discussions and threads on the empathy subject.
I was very confused when first diagnosed also and had such a low number on the EQ test score.
After several questionings of my therapist and on-line research, I finally got the idea of empathy and
what it is.
The answer was easily understood after finding out about the three different types and which ones are
lacking or prevelent.

• Emotional empathy—The ability to understand what a person is experiencing based on personal experience and understanding built from that. This is often referred to as “hot empathy.” When you feel physically along with the other person, as though their emotions were contagious.

• Compassionate empathy—Understanding a person’s predicament and feeling with them, but being spontaneously moved to help, if needed.

• Cognitive empathy—Simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking. This can be learned from observation and extrapolation. This is also called “cold empathy".

Autistics can have all three, but, mainly the first: Emotional, also called affective.
When you feel physically along with the other person as if their emotions were contagious.
And the second, compassionate, where you want to jump in and help.

Cognitive is what the experts refer to as difficult for ASD.
Simply knowing from observation and extrapolation.

Psycopaths lack the emotional/affective type and are strong in the cognitive which makes them
perfect manipulators as they can act out affective empathy even if they don't feel it.
Thus gaining trust.

You can score low in the test if you don't have cognitive.
Doesn't mean you are a sociopath if you have the first two.
IMO the test should be broken down into scores on each aspect then it would be
truly reflective of the individual.

Autistics usually have the emotional and compassionate empathy, but, may lack the
cognitive ability type. The exact opposite of the psychopath and would be hard pressed
to put on an act of emotional empathy for manipulation.

Of course as with anything they can over lap.
I wonder how many psychopathic autists there are?
I've never seen a study or article on that.

Seriously psychology experts today have made it a purpose of their life to make things complicated for absolutely NO reason. Seriously....THREE seperate kinds of 'empathy' to describe ONE thing that is simply multi-faceted? Really???? That's one of those cases where you read something about psychology and wonder why on earth are they making such a simple issue so complicated. In what universe does empathy have THREE seperate categories, two of which are basically the same thing but with slightly different words? Anyway for me empathy is one thing that is simply multifaceted. Empathy is a person's ability to understand and relate to other people's problems, pain and situation and be able to figure out what someone feels at a specific predicament, either because of high levels of instict or a lot of experience in people observation and social skills. It's that simple.
But in any case, I agree with the rest, autistics are probably low on the ability to figure out how someone feels but for me, there is no doubt that autism isn't characterized by a lack of empathy. Every autistic I've met including myself, not only has empathy but we're all what we could call, a bit too much on the empathy levels. We feel things too strongly and we can be emotionally moved by other people's pain or stories way too easily.

 

[SusanLR]

I think the experts so to speak, aren't making it a more complicated thing by breaking empathy into
three types, but rather helping to figure out personality aspects.
It's rather like a spectrum and where you fit on it.
There are neurological reasons for the three and show on electrical MRI brain images.
Different areas fire off depending on which type of empathy you are feeling.
Studies show the affective areas just don't fire in psycopathy.
Just as the brain and emotions doesn't change when they are shown images that range from
happy loving situations to a gorey murder scene. The neuronal pathways are just different.
Rather opposite to the autistic.

It is an interesting study for someone into neurosciences and the medical field.
But, admittedly can be confusing to those not familiar with it just as I and others
on the forum were when the test showed a low empathy score.

 

[BlueSky Aozora]

There have been many discussions and threads on the empathy subject.
I was very confused when first diagnosed also and had such a low number on the EQ test score.
After several questionings of my therapist and on-line research, I finally got the idea of empathy and
what it is.
The answer was easily understood after finding out about the three different types and which ones are
lacking or prevelent.

• Emotional empathy—The ability to understand what a person is experiencing based on personal experience and understanding built from that. This is often referred to as “hot empathy.” When you feel physically along with the other person, as though their emotions were contagious.

• Compassionate empathy—Understanding a person’s predicament and feeling with them, but being spontaneously moved to help, if needed.

• Cognitive empathy—Simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking. This can be learned from observation and extrapolation. This is also called “cold empathy".

Autistics can have all three, but, mainly the first: Emotional, also called affective.
When you feel physically along with the other person as if their emotions were contagious.
And the second, compassionate, where you want to jump in and help.

Cognitive is what the experts refer to as difficult for ASD.
Simply knowing from observation and extrapolation.

Psycopaths lack the emotional/affective type and are strong in the cognitive which makes them
perfect manipulators as they can act out affective empathy even if they don't feel it.
Thus gaining trust.

You can score low in the test if you don't have cognitive.
Doesn't mean you are a sociopath if you have the first two.
IMO the test should be broken down into scores on each aspect then it would be
truly reflective of the individual.

Autistics usually have the emotional and compassionate empathy, but, may lack the
cognitive ability type. The exact opposite of the psychopath and would be hard pressed
to put on an act of emotional empathy for manipulation.

Of course as with anything they can over lap.
I wonder how many psychopathic autists there are?
I've never seen a study or article on that.

That's informative. Just like what another forumer said about the three types of empathy.

Ok, let's say that autistic people dont have cognitive empathy. So, they need to be told, so they know.

Question: so how can autistic people know even when they are being told about the feelings of other person, since they tend to take it as negative critism?

Another question: How come people who dont experience the same thing, or at least similar, can even feel emotional empathy? Let's say that there is a NT wife and Aspie husband. Even if they tell each other their feelings, by definition, it's impossible for both of them to have emotional empathy; unless, they try to do the same things their spouses do, with their spouses limitation/advantage/scope.

I think the important one is the compassionate empathy.

Question: How can an autistic or hfa person do this, when s/he is already overwhelmed with his/her own tasks, or when it seems that autistic/hfa people only do what they are interested in?

Hopefully this doesnt come out as rude. I'm just truly curious. Since there're many people with interesting knowledge and ideas here, perhaps you can share your wisdom.. Thanks