Do autism 'experts' really think that we have little or no empathy??

[BlueSky Aozora]

We feel things too strongly and we can be emotionally moved by other people's pain or stories way too easily.

That's interesting. I have a question: does that empathy is usually being followed up by any immediate action from your side, to help the people who tell you their pain/story, even if you're not interested in their story at all?

This is not directed specific to you, I'm just curious about what people with autism/hfa do/think about this.

 

[BlueSky Aozora]

There have been many discussions and threads on the empathy subject.
I was very confused when first diagnosed also and had such a low number on the EQ test score.
After several questionings of my therapist and on-line research, I finally got the idea of empathy and
what it is.
The answer was easily understood after finding out about the three different types and which ones are
lacking or prevelent.

• Emotional empathy—The ability to understand what a person is experiencing based on personal experience and understanding built from that. This is often referred to as “hot empathy.” When you feel physically along with the other person, as though their emotions were contagious.

• Compassionate empathy—Understanding a person’s predicament and feeling with them, but being spontaneously moved to help, if needed.

• Cognitive empathy—Simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking. This can be learned from observation and extrapolation. This is also called “cold empathy".

Autistics can have all three, but, mainly the first: Emotional, also called affective.
When you feel physically along with the other person as if their emotions were contagious.
And the second, compassionate, where you want to jump in and help.

Cognitive is what the experts refer to as difficult for ASD.
Simply knowing from observation and extrapolation.

Psycopaths lack the emotional/affective type and are strong in the cognitive which makes them
perfect manipulators as they can act out affective empathy even if they don't feel it.
Thus gaining trust.

You can score low in the test if you don't have cognitive.
Doesn't mean you are a sociopath if you have the first two.
IMO the test should be broken down into scores on each aspect then it would be
truly reflective of the individual.

Autistics usually have the emotional and compassionate empathy, but, may lack the
cognitive ability type. The exact opposite of the psychopath and would be hard pressed
to put on an act of emotional empathy for manipulation.

Of course as with anything they can over lap.
I wonder how many psychopathic autists there are?
I've never seen a study or article on that.

Can somebody explain with some detailed real examples on how people with hfa, autism shows the emotional empathy, and compassionate empathy? And how do NTs?

What do you mean by people with autism/hfa feel physically along with other people? Example? Is it sensory issue?

 

[55853]

We feel things too strongly and we can be emotionally moved by other people's pain or stories way too easily.

Please don't fight generalisations with generalisations. This may be the case for you and others you know, but it isn't the case for everyone with autism. Bear in mind that you are far more likely to hear about people talking about how they break stereotypes, than hear about people talking about how they fit them, especially negative stereotypes.

Personally, I do not feel things strongly. Compared to how others describe it, it seems like my emotional experience is far more limited in intensity. Fictional stories, such as those in books, movies, or TV series, have never caused me to cry or feel anything of that nature. My limited emotional feelings seem to both make it harder to recognise emotions in others, and know what to do about them feeling the way they do.

Describing this doesn't make me sound like a nice person, does it? This may be why you don't see it described.

I must be clear that I don't have a personality disorder. I've never had any behaviour issues (with teachers at school, or police in adulthood), I've never been cruel to animals or people, and I will go out of my way for someone or something if I know how to help them. So there must be something to do with empathy that I have, although it is definitely not what you describe.

Seriously psychology experts today have made it a purpose of their life to make things complicated for absolutely NO reason

I will first say that I'm not a psychologist, so my understanding is limited. But there is a reason to make things more complicated. The human brain is a complicated thing. By identifying different concepts and breaking them down into different aspects, the hope is more understanding of more people. If what you experience can already be described, that's good. But that's not a universal experience, so the study of it continues.

 

[SusanLR]

Can somebody explain with some detailed real examples on how people with hfa, autism shows the emotional empathy, and compassionate empathy? And how do NTs?

What do you mean by people with autism/hfa feel physically along with other people? Example? Is it sensory issue?

Showing compassionate empathy and feeling emotional empathy are the same for NTs or HFAs.
It is the degree that varies and that is true for both.

Example of emotional empathy: You see someone hurt, lying on the sidewalk, maybe reaching out.
With emotional empathy you would feel a physical sensation from the sight.
You might feel nausea, you might feel some pain yourself or emotional upset.
If you don't have emotional empathy, you can view that person and feel nothing.

Compassionate empathy is when the above described scene not only creates emotional and physical
reactions within self, but, also a deep response to help.
Example: You see someone lying hurt on the sidewalk reaching for help.
Without thinking you run over to help. Without the compassionate empathy you could (cognitively)
think and know the person is hurting, but, you would walk on by with no remorse because you don't
want to get involved.

These are the two types NTs and HFAs both experience.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Compassionate empathy is when the above described scene not only creates emotional and physical
reactions within self, but, also a deep response to help.

The question would be,then, how is that response to help interpreted?

In life the examples aren't always as clear as someone lying hurt on the sidewalk.

Often, I think, HFA's can give compassionate empathy when they are told a story by someone = they try to help.

They have interpretated the story literally - compassion is triggered - they offer in conversation - advice,options about what will help.

The reality - the purpose of the conversation had a hidden metamessage ( the message lying underneath the words usually the conveyance of feelings).

So the NT had a hidden expectation of "There,there, feel better, I feel for you" that kind of thing.
The NT's social expectation when that is received is complete. They feel better about themselves.

The HFA, doesn't give that,misunderstanding the secret code (the metamessage)

but actually gives compassionate help and actual offers of help...

The NT isn't expecting that and can react negatively.

The HFA responds to the negative reaction.

Neither side understands the other.

The HFA goes off and cannot understand why their empathy is not understood.


In a wider sense , perhaps this type of communication can be a reason why HFA's can be said not to have empathy.

It is because they mis-interpret social expectations more often.

and with a penchant to label and categorise (irony alert as I'm about to do the same :0) ) the NT's label the HFA as uncaring.

The label as a result of their hidden expecations not being met.
Nothing to do with whether anyone is caring or not.

The communication of feelings .. words are secondary.

the HFA triggered by words and empathy kicked in... almost, one could say, by taking things literally.

 

[SusanLR]

Hey, Fridge!
Nice to see you around again.
I know I gave a very graphic example to show how what we can see will create feelings of hurt inside self, yours is more subtle, but sure can be true.
NTs often just want a pat on the back or an everything will be OK.
We take things literally and want to do something to help.

A good example I experienced was when the person I was in the car with was driving in a storm
at night. He got all upset when he missed the turn and I said "that was the road you should have
turned on." I wanted to help, but, he got angry and asked how I could just say that so "matter of factly."
I said, because it is the matter of fact.
Oh, boy. Yes, the miscommunication of literal vs emotional.
It was a loop road and even though the turn off was missed, just keep going a bit more and it looped
back to where the turn off road would have gone.
He was about to panic and I was calm. Neither understood the other's interpretation of the incident.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Hey, Fridge!
Nice to see you around again.

thanks

I said, because it is the matter of fact.
Oh, boy. Yes, the miscommunication of literal vs emotional.
It was a loop road and even though the turn off was missed, just keep going a bit more and it looped
back to where the turn off road would have gone.
He was about to panic and I was calm. Neither understood the other's interpretation of the incident.

good example. I chose to highlight the ordinariness.
Relationships are based on thousands of small interactions like this.

For the most part,it doesn't matter if they are mis-understood.
They can be ignored,bypassed most of the time.

When a big event happens - even taking a wrong turn can be a big event, relative to the small incidences that I mean.

The difficulty arises - there is one person,HFA, who is making individual judgments, another making social judgments.

Thousands of them.

It is likely that a lot of them are wrong

Both sides can misunderstand the other for long periods of time but don't realise it.

They may see the "big event' but it is the pattern of small incidences that re-occur and used to make a judgment of a persons character - who they are - that lead up to it.

Who on earth has the patience to go back over all that stuff?


Addtionally an NT,part of a social group, don't make their decisions individually.

Our character,in many ways, is decided for us en masse, by a collection of hte people we meet.

Wife's friends for example, a group we may go to,a workplace.

Highly likely that their constructed character of us is entirely wrong.

But that's just the way things work around this world

Change is slow.

My wife realised she was wrong about a lot of things.

took her 15 years +

Course I was also wrong
In this case - two wrongs did make a right.

and the exception proves the rule.

Two phrases at the end thrown in because we're not supposed to understand them!

 

[SageRose]

Please don't fight generalisations with generalisations. This may be the case for you and others you know, but it isn't the case for everyone with autism. Bear in mind that you are far more likely to hear about people talking about how they break stereotypes, than hear about people talking about how they fit them, especially negative stereotypes.

Personally, I do not feel things strongly. Compared to how others describe it, it seems like my emotional experience is far more limited in intensity. Fictional stories, such as those in books, movies, or TV series, have never caused me to cry or feel anything of that nature. My limited emotional feelings seem to both make it harder to recognise emotions in others, and know what to do about them feeling the way they do.

Describing this doesn't make me sound like a nice person, does it? This may be why you don't see it described.

I must be clear that I don't have a personality disorder. I've never had any behaviour issues (with teachers at school, or police in adulthood), I've never been cruel to animals or people, and I will go out of my way for someone or something if I know how to help them. So there must be something to do with empathy that I have, although it is definitely not what you describe.


I will first say that I'm not a psychologist, so my understanding is limited. But there is a reason to make things more complicated. The human brain is a complicated thing. By identifying different concepts and breaking them down into different aspects, the hope is more understanding of more people. If what you experience can already be described, that's good. But that's not a universal experience, so the study of it continues.

I wasn't generalizing about the empathy part. I was refering mainly to my experience of my interaction with other autistic people, not about ALL autistic people. It'd be practically impossible to speak on behalf of all autistics out there even if I wanted to.

I think what you describe is a lack of intense emotional response? People who get to be emotional, usually react mildly or intensly when it comes to emotions but that's not always necessary. As you said, you will help people who need your help (which shows your sensitivity and response towards other beings), but you simply don't feel as much as others do or you don't respond towards the same emotional stimuli as others. Not sure ofc, just saying based on what I understand from what you described. In any case, that definitely doesn't make you a psycho or anything. Psychos DO feel intensly...but only specific feelings. They feel very intensly their anger, envy and maliciousness. Those are their main feelings and they experience them intensly which is why they respond with malicious actions and intentions always.

 

[55853]

I wasn't generalizing about the empathy part. I was refering mainly to my experience of my interaction with other autistic people, not about ALL autistic people.

I personally think it would be helpful, if possible, to word this in a way that was more explicit about who was being referred to. "We" without a statement before does make it seem like you are talking about everyone with autism.

Not sure ofc, just saying based on what I understand from what you described.

I would say your description is accurate. It isn't that I don't care, it is that I don't feel it emotionally like you or others you know. I think you described this well.

In any case, that definitely doesn't make you a psycho

Of course, but current descriptions of empathy make me seem very lacking in it. Combine this with the thought online that low empathy = psychopath (which, as far as I'm aware, is not an official diagnostic term), and it is not the best way to be seen. This is one of the many reasons why I believe more complexity is a good thing.

 

[SageRose]

I personally think it would be helpful, if possible, to word this in a way that was more explicit about who was being referred to. "We" without a statement before does make it seem like you are talking about everyone with autism.


I would say your description is accurate. It isn't that I don't care, it is that I don't feel it emotionally like you or others you know. I think you described this well.


Of course, but current descriptions of empathy make me seem very lacking in it. Combine this with the thought online that low empathy = psychopath (which, as far as I'm aware, is not an official diagnostic term), and it is not the best way to be seen. This is one of the many reasons why I believe more complexity is a good thing.

Perhaps you're right. I hadn't really thought that complexity could be this helpful in this area. I'm just so fed up of seing so many new terms for all sorts of things that at some point one tends to think they are there just to make things tougher to understand.

 

[Sarah S]

In my case with my Multiple NPD diagnosis (incl ASD ) i fit category nr 1 -2

• Emotional empathy—The ability to understand what a person is experiencing based on personal experience and understanding built from that. This is often referred to as “hot empathy.” When you feel physically along with the other person, as though their emotions were contagious.

• Compassionate empathy—Understanding a person’s predicament and feeling with them, but being spontaneously moved to help, if needed.

And nr 3

• Cognitive empathy—Simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking. This can be learned from observation and extrapolation. This is also called “cold empathy".

Well in my case it seems when its about others i have no problems when it involves others BUT when its reg my own life i manage to pretty mush misread AL the time (have been getting worse for the past year actually ) and as so i manage to mess up AL the time

As i stated numerous times in here according to the docs in this profession (and over here they are VERY HIGHLY skilled in this diagnosis i should ad )

This NPD diagnosis are HIGHLY individual in the way it represent it self and so although there are some basic traits displayed in al of us the rest is highly individual so no ones traits or tics are the same as the others (statement takend from HIGHLY regarded professor here in Sweden on NPD diagnosis )

 

[DuckRabbit]

Here is a so-called expert summarising Asperger's in that blunt, crude, unnuanced way that so many NTs conceptualise it:

What Is The Difference Between Asperger's Syndrome And Autism? | Kenneth Roberson, Ph.D.
How Are Asperger’s and Autism Similar?
The similarities between the two conditions are greater in number than the differences. People with ASD:

1. Have a desire to self-isolate. They tend to shut out, disregard, and reject contact with the outside world, family members as well as strangers or acquaintances. They suffer from an inability to relate to people and situations in ordinary ways.
2. Are resistant to change. They crave, instead, sameness and predictability. They engage in repetitive activities and arrange things around them so that stability and uniformity is maintained.
3. Lack the expressions of feeling, intentions, and desire that are typical in communication with other people. They use language not to connect with people but to engage with themselves by focusing on what interests them. The volume, tone, and flow of their speech lack the qualities that create a sense of contact. Their facial expressions, eye contact, and gestures are not used as a bridge to approach others but instead to maintain coherence within themselves and engage with themselves around the things that interest them.
4. Tend to have a fascination with, and attachment to, objects and narrow, isolated activities for the purpose of stimulating themselves and for protection from the outside world. Assembling collections of objects, learning about unusual subjects, engaging in complex mathematical calculations are examples of this fascination for limited, narrow activities.
5. They lack a sense of humor, having little understanding of jokes and puns. Their thinking tends to be literal. They are infrequently relaxed and carefree, and when they are in a happy mood it tends to be exaggerated and not in line with the way others around them display their moods.

The most important consideration about the relationship between these two conditions is that there must be some evidence of autistic features in someone in order to diagnose that person with Asperger’s, or as we now say Autism Spectrum Disorder. Without that evidence, a diagnosis of Asperger’s is not possible.

--
None of this resonates with what I know about Asperger's - it is a stereotype. He grants that Aspergers do feel empathy:

Eight Important Facts About Asperger's Syndrome In Adults | Kenneth Roberson, Ph.D.

1. Adults with Asperger’s do feel empathy. Research has established that strong feelings for others, including concerns for their well-being and sensitivity to their emotional state, is common in adult Asperger’s. The problem is not a lack of concern for people but instead difficulty comprehending their feelings and communicating that comprehension.

Slowly the NT conception is becoming more nuanced - in response to ASC backlash and criticism, I suspect, rather than from their own observations. Has anyone yet met a NT expert who doesn't get their [Asperger's] hackles up in the way they [the so-called expert] construe Asperger's?

P.S. He seems to show some irritation/ resentment/ contempt towards Asperger's for their efforts to blend in and conform or pass for normal [bold added by me]:

Hiding In Plain Sight: The Many Disguises of Adult Asperger’s Syndrome | Kenneth Roberson, Ph.D.

People who rely upon masking their Asperger behaviors worry about being unmasked, seen as the actors they are, and rejected for their duplicity. They worry whether they are being effective and, if not, how to act even better. Anxiety and stress inevitably follow.

At some level, most people who mask who they are recognize they are not being true to themselves. In effect, they are lying, and they know it. Their relationships are based on deception, and the threat of being discovered as a fraud, an imposter, is ever-present. The threat is existential. The risk is loss of themselves.

= No mention of the NT penchant for putting on personas and acts in order to achieve social goals, as described so well here by Larisa:
Do Aspies have delayed mental development?