Direct involvement in research

[Rahere]

Diogenes here is looking for an expert who knows what they're talking about.
I'm diagnosed with mild high-performance Aspergers as a side dish to a huge IQ (I may have reinforced the top 163 bar when the Tavistock Clinic picked me up during the extension of IQ testing to kids in the 1960s, which meant I couldn't test - but I'm a bit off that now). My question has been, "What does that mean?", which has gone unanswered.
The history I've found is all about difference. From Asperger, concerned with eliminating those who wouldn't make good obedient stormtroopers, to Dabrowsky, whose "over-excitability" failed to note the comparative, to Attwood, whose "we don't know anything about high-performance, so let's dispense with that, they're all Autistic" is moving on to "Why recognise Aspie as a distinct syndrome?" I'm left in the ridiculous situation of being classified as intellectually-challenged despite having reinforced the top bar to intellect and having a decent share of the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize to my name (I actually made the join between East and West Europe). Which only tells me one thing: if I'm intellectually challenged, what does that say about the fellows doing the diagnosis?

You'll notice I'm new here, so could someone please put me on the path of rectitude, because right now, I'm of the opinion that if they're not asking, we should be telling them. It's like being an expert in aviation without ever having flown. Or my old man, at the head of automotive research, yet not owning a car!

 

[SDRSpark]

I could be wrong here, and things change so much I can't keep up, but I'm pretty sure autism is not considered an intellectual disability. It's a difference in processing (which is disabling to some); that has nothing whatsoever to do with intellect.

Today you would likely be classified as 2e (twice-exceptional): gifted (high IQ) and autistic.

Also, welcome!

 

[OkRad]

Sorry. I couldn't get past Diogenes. I am rather fond of the ancient cynic and wish he were around today. He'd save a lot of people from a lot of chaos.......

 

[Mary Terry]

I don't really understand what you're asking. A quick google search indicates approximately 50% of people with autism are intellectually impaired (I.Q. < 70) and approximately 3% have above average intelligence (I.Q. > 115). That leaves about 50% with average intelligence.

My 30 year old nephew is non-verbal with echolalia, cannot hold a job, cannot drive a car, cannot cook or do a whole lot of other things, and will never be self-sufficient, yet his IQ is in the 160 range, like you. He can do complex math problems including the square root of any number in his head in a matter of seconds.

What difference does a high IQ make in his life? None that I can see.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

IQ is just a 1 digit indicator of how fast your mind works the best analogy would be power. I lived on a farm during my youth. we owned a 100 horse power tractor at the time very powerful now I own a small compact car power similar. Can you really compare.
IQ autism spectrum disorders are both distributions which may be independent from each other.
I put the attached table together years ago. Most of the ones on the internet were BS people with IQs of 250 or more.

 

[Judge]

An interesting article addressing this issue. That such considerations continue to evolve and be debated with time, though there are still certainly a number of flaws in the process.

"The medical establishment once considered autism and intellectual disability to be virtually inseparable. In the 1980s, as much as 69 percent of people with an autism diagnosis also had a diagnosis of mental retardation. By 2014, the figure for a dual diagnosis — with mental retardation now called intellectual disability — had declined to 30 percent, as researchers had sharpened the diagnostic criteria for autism.

These figures are fluid, however, because the line between autism and intellectual disability remains fuzzy: Doctors often mistake one condition for the other or diagnose just one of the two when both are present. Genetic overlap further blurs the picture. Most genes identified as autism genes also cause intellectual disability. And researchers face roadblocks to progress in making the demarcation, including a funding imbalance that favors autism research and the fact that it is often easier to study autistic people without intellectual disability than with it."

The blurred line between autism and intellectual disability | Spectrum | Autism Research News

 

[Mia]

if I'm intellectually challenged, what does that say about the fellows doing the diagnosis?

You likely comprehend how plodding and onerous research can be, and that researchers have to come up with baseline theories. Speculating on something when they have only a little concrete evidence of the workings of any brain. They research behavior and use imaging, genetics, neurons firing, (Hey look at those neurons firing, what information are they sending? We'll have to trace the pathways and that will take decades). If they knew more, it might make a difference. But they don't seem to as it's a work in progress.

You'll notice I'm new here, so could someone please put me on the path of rectitude, because right now, I'm of the opinion that if they're not asking, we should be telling them.

You think they'll listen? It brings to mind the divisions in research and the activists who continually advocate for the rights of autistic individuals. And the charities that attempt to help in some manner, and others who use autism as a fund-raising opportunity. Suspect and even hope that they'll stop looking for the why, eventually discovering that it was all for nothing. And learn to live with us for who we are.

 

[Streetwise]

Research the word neurotypical in the search engine on the forum

 

[Rahere]

To expand on my opening comment, my diagnosis benefitted from a demonstration of my "weird", I'm a seer medium, which developed very fruitfully in the Western European Union (Europe's State Department). That led the Harley Street test panel to do an MRI on me, revealing a normal brain lit up like a Christmas tree, and that led to a 24-hour EEG, revealing only vestigial beta-phase sleep, offset by an activity level at-rest baseline of 30%, going to near 100%. I'm processing my experience live-time, making me very fast indeed on the uptake.
Watching my processes shows a normal inherent mentationigh, and some aberrant quirks like the medium gift, and Master-level Reiki. The distinction is that a neurotypical only uses about 10-11% of his brain, which overloads if he's denied sleep for 48 hours. Therefore, about half of that is used for short-term memory to be processed in beta-phase sleep, leaving about 5%. I've got about 70% available, and so can create far larger mindscapes. I just can't communicate them, because an executive summary (I worked in the HQ of a top food companyfor a decade before the diplomats nabbed me) opens so many contributory considerations that explaining them overloads an NT exec! But logic is logic, and that side of me is normal: just more, far more, with non-linear flows which may on occasion be contradictory nuances. This, I surmise, is why we say we think differently, the NT has a single linear thread reflected by language.
That's only the left-side hemicortex. My paranormal lies in the right. And that too is legendary: how many NTs go to the supermarket and come home with the completion of Gandhi's unfinished business on the stocks? It took precisely four hours to reach a deal which blew Javier Solana's mind. And it wasn't even the peak achievement.
This is what Trump talked of in November, the mind which can crack codes. I've done that, without the "crib" he describes, as a proof of thesis needed to establish reliable cryptography, following up on Turing's methods. I date back far enough to have learned from that circle, in passing, having made my eternal mark on the world aged just 14, unexpectedly. My surname's invoked by your computer many times a second.
The medics call it hyperperception. I term it transception, as part of a wider field of perception of the intangible spearheaded by Abraham Maslow, running from empathy to the numinous, including the 3rd-sector of medicine (with meridian technology at the forefront) and the paranormal - and anything else in what's rather a grab-bag at the

I don't really understand what you're asking. A quick google search indicates approximately 50% of people with autism are intellectually impaired (I.Q. < 70) and approximately 3% have above average intelligence (I.Q. > 115). That leaves about 50% with average intelligence.

My 30 year old nephew is non-verbal with echolalia, cannot hold a job, cannot drive a car, cannot cook or do a whole lot of other things, and will never be self-sufficient, yet his IQ is in the 160 range, like you. He can do complex math problems including the square root of any number in his head in a matter of seconds.

What difference does a high IQ make in his life? None that I can see.

 

[Rahere]

I contrast my experience before diagnosis and after. Yes, I was distinctive in a neurotypical world. Then the shrinks interfered - again - and brought no knowledge but labelled me ASD. That's Autistic Spectrum DISORDER, and I'm frankly insulted. Yes, I accept there are six subtypes in the classification, and what I'm saying doesn't apply to all, which is why I opened describing me. That it applies to any is serious.
I don't drive either. My mathematical explanation of my outlook on half of humanity is rather upsetting to them, (153/104=104/70 where 153's my last recorded result, 104 the median IQ, 70 borderline incompetent. So half of humanity's duller than dishwater to me...)
Don't get me wrong, I was a volunteer staffer on the Greenwich Association of Disabled People (I did the roll-out of the Dial-a-Ride system, designing it modularly to be easily scalable for a range of businesses and communities) and have had a lifelong exposure to those with mental needs. I get on with them and like them. But just as they've had most of the attention from Binet onwards, so those of us on the top have continued to be abused, our education neglected, our stereotypes mocked. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll gladly recognise it if so. GAD was always at the forefront in the UK, chaining wheelchairs to buses outside Parliament, and so I'll not be slow in calling out wrong. We didn't ask to be born this way, but we were, and society's done well out of me. It's time to give others a chance too.

 

[Rahere]

You likely comprehend how plodding and onerous research can be, and that researchers have to come up with a baseline theories. Speculating on something when they have only a little physical evidence of the workings of any brain. They research behavior and use imaging, genetics, neurons firing, (Hey look at those neurons firing, what information are they sending? We'll have to trace the pathways and that will take decades). If they knew more, it might make a difference. But they don't seem to as it's a work in progress.



You think they'll listen? It brings to mind the divisions in research and the activists who continually advocate for the rights of autistic individuals. And the charities that attempt to help in some manner, and others who use autism as a fund-raising opportunity. Suspect and even hope that they'll stop looking for the why, eventually discovering that it was all for nothing. And learn to live with us for who we are.

Thanks, Mia, it reminds me of BLM. Another group born different. They've taken a stand we can copy, telling the experts that unless they've lived with the difference, they know zilch. They're speaking for themselves. We should too.

 

[Rahere]

An interesting article addressing this issue. That such considerations continue to evolve and be debated with time, though there are still certainly a number of flaws in the process.

"The medical establishment once considered autism and intellectual disability to be virtually inseparable. In the 1980s, as much as 69 percent of people with an autism diagnosis also had a diagnosis of mental retardation. By 2014, the figure for a dual diagnosis — with mental retardation now called intellectual disability — had declined to 30 percent, as researchers had sharpened the diagnostic criteria for autism.

These figures are fluid, however, because the line between autism and intellectual disability remains fuzzy: Doctors often mistake one condition for the other or diagnose just one of the two when both are present. Genetic overlap further blurs the picture. Most genes identified as autism genes also cause intellectual disability. And researchers face roadblocks to progress in making the demarcation, including a funding imbalance that favors autism research and the fact that it is often easier to study autistic people without intellectual disability than with it."

The blurred line between autism and intellectual disability | Spectrum | Autism Research News

Thanks, Judge, I'll work through those. The problem's that the old abuse sticks in popular norms, and when I opened the issue on LinkedIn, someone went straight to Rainman Savant syndrome. Like Greta Thunberg, I spent most of my childhood reading to make sense of the world, and watching and reading my father's papers as a Parliamentary Select Committee co-opted expert - he and Prince Phillip got on, to the point where his Institution of Mechanical Engineers became the lead body in the Professional Engineering Institutions, leading the design of ventilators a year ago, achieved in a week - it's currently under attack by the jackals on the Dyson design. Philip was actually fitted with one of his designs, getting hip implants working. Yes, I'd say he was another of us.
But my issue is that I don't think I'm the one with the disability at all. I've two identical computers, one with an operating system capable of handling all its memory, another with an older one which can only handle 10% of it. Which is the one which is disordered, needing an upgrade? Why should I waste my time supporting a sport which caused me PTSD (soccer)? Just to fit in? You'll soon enough suss me...

What is interesting is that nobody's able to cite positive research into the traits here, either. Your papers treat the status-quo, which I'm calling out on the basis of no apparent work in the last 25 years, since the Markrams studies at Lausanne hypothesised Intense World Syndrome. Let's start with meltdown. Mine are fairly simple, traumatic and overload. The trauma was the fruit of childhood bullying, and we've now reached the point where I'm fairly sure the pressure can be released (I've already done so by accident on one, I hope to get the complex drained soon now). Overload happens when I don't ride my neuroception, I can't take on more than about 90-95% loading. Are there other sub-classes of meltdown I don't experience?
That's just one part of the domain. Another's the overlap with giftedness, which isn't a uniquely high-performance trait. How about transception? Meridians and Reiki? How does the laying-on of hands work? Any other traits in the X-skills field? What's the ideal forum for this?

 

[Crossbreed]

@Rahere,
ASD1 is autism + little-to-no brain damage.
ASD2 is autism + brain damage.
ASD3 is autism + more brain damage.

Most gifteds have a condition known as asynchronous development.
If their social instinct development is low enough, that meets the criteria for an ASD diagnosis. (That is where 2e's come from.)

FYI, all savantism is the result of (selective) brain damage. That is why more savants occur among ASD2s & 3s, than ASD1s.
10% of autistics are savant.
90% of savants are autistic.

 

[Rahere]

The MRI showed no brain damage at all. Normal, but for the usage. My social stance is because of ostracisation, I reached the point where I no longer wanted to identify with NTs, a case of being bitten too many times. It's kinder to minimize my involvement.

 

[Rahere]

Asynchronous development's just a polysyllabic way of saying you learned too fast - another version of "overexcitable". Maybe my NT peers learned too slow? All I know is that I was only allowed to learn to read aged 5y6m, by 8y6m I had the GK of a 14 year old. I was reading a textbook a night. I eventually sussed the library classification system - when I'd stripped the place. But it served me well in life, I can handle most things.

 

[Crossbreed]

Asynchronous development's just a polysyllabic way of saying you learned too fast...

(I am 2e also.)
"Asynchronous development" means that one developed unevenly, particularly in their neurological traits. NTs develop more evenly (in that regard). There are gifteds who have developed evenly, too, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

The last time I took the WAIS(-IV),* my sub-scores had a 43 point spread. I am told that they are typically much less spread among NTs.

*It is the only one where I had access to the raw numbers.

 

[Crossbreed]

The MRI showed no brain damage at all.

That supports your ASD1 diagnosis.
Autism alone [ASD1] is a difference, not a defect.

 

[Streetwise]

Remember no-one!!! is defective just!!! different

 

[Rahere]

I'm working from Yosida's Raising Children, describing Laura Wing's 1998 approach. I'm so far off her manifestation scale as to be in outer space! I'm not in disagreement about low-functioning AS/ASD, but this isn't about those groups. Wing uses 3 criteria, impairments in social interaction, qualitative impairments in communication, and qualitative impairments of social imagination. Note that all three are normal-referent. I don't interact socially because the diagnosis caused complete ostracism in my male circle. My parenting didn't help: by the time I was 19 I had had exactly two decent conversations with a girl of my own age. I got on fine with older women. But obstacles were continuously placed in my path whenever I thought to have some kind of social life. Communication I've covered above. Social imagination codes as normative behaviour. Sure I'm abnormal, different, but is that difference pejorative? A Nobel Prize says otherwise.

What I'm into is excellence, not banality. I was coached in gym in childhood by one of the best, to Olympic standard: I've in recent years had the opportunity to discuss this with Nicholai Vieru, Nadia Comaneci's coach who put that perfect 6s set together in 1972. Darwinism talks of the survival of the fittest, not the more fitted: the genetic thesis argues we're an evolutionary development. Homo scipiens? By democratic normalisation, we fail that test. I've been bid for by the SAS, and turned them down for the reasons Johnny Mercer just gave for quitting government. There's quite a gang of us now, Rory Stewart, Andrew Mitchell, Johnny, David Davis. But I didn't stop there, I went on to show them how to do it. When some of the legends who blew the Iranian Embassy apart treat you as a legend, you know you're on the right track. There were incongruous moments, admittedly, watching my two year old daughter being bounced on the knee of the inventor of the flash-bang, for example. But the mediaeval philosophers were right, keep yourself grounded in reality however high your metaphysics fly.

And that's why I'm not interested in egalitarian socialism. We should lift each other up, not drag our best back. Asking why we're not normal is exactly that. Yes, support the weakest, but don't weaken the strongest. I achieved that pinnacle because nobody told me I couldn't, and because a faith dynamic smoothed the way.

I want to raise the hood and look at the engine. I can only talk for myself, but there are others here with similar experience being tortured by a normalisation. At the same time, I don't want to hurt our weaker kin. That's why I'm interested in a subforum, so those involved can see the debate easily and the mods can have an eye on it.

 

[Rahere]

Remember no-one!!! is defective just!!! different

I'll buy that one when they stop calling it Autistic Spectrum Disorder...
And when they look deeper than symptomatics...
And when they recognise this abuse of natal difference is discrimination...
And when they give the top end basic human rights by educating them properly...
And when...

Heathrow Airport's just radioed in. Porker 123 Right 27 please return to stand.