Aspies Who Live Like Or Perhaps Are NT's + My Unwanted Envy

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

I'll shamelessly admit that (if just because of the declining circumstances over the last few years which put me in such positions of vulnerability and cravings) I'd like to get some attention (even ion here) just to know that others can briefly know I exist outside of my sometimes interesting yet often sheltered life. For some of the below points, you are an aspie (or perhaps you just think you are) and you're getting this- how/why???
For others (though sometimes I think only female NT's are allowed to be on aspie-only forums) you're an NT and you get enough of it (not all of course) your own way in the end or from the start.

It's somewhat depressing, saddening and (dare I say it for the risk of sounding like an attention/pitty seeker) pathetic that I made repeat visits to the health & beauty sections of variouse stores I was doing merchandising calls on (or just places where there were often more women that men), briefly interacted with some amazingly beautiful and or shapely girls of ultimate desire (some of which had seemingly nice personalities and of which I got on with fairly well) and yet in many cases I'd bet all of this was just part of the professionalism to get along with store visitors as indeed I saw some of them do after with their customers, so I'm not so special and naturally not appealing to them in any such way as to be able to perhaps make a play for some romance (how you'd actually do that without looking like the idiot I felt like is beyond me, so naturally nothing was done, even though I genuinely complimented some of them and received fairly positive responses/acknowledgement). I'd have done anything just to have walked away with one of their phone numbers in the genuine belief they actually (in whatever way women want this to go) wanted something to progress. But of the percentage that were actually single, once you then factor in all the myriad of other reasons to be rejected I naturally come back with zero (like always). At least unlike online dating you can feel like you're not specifically going there to desperately try and get someone and the feelings (and indeed their image) is short lived as you leave it all behind to go onto the next store. I see all these couples (some of which with guys looking as average as me) and yet there some of them are with a woman I'd think "hmm...someone's done well and punched above his weight with, shame I can't get first refusal for that in my life".

I can't do 'guy chats/things'.
So basically those typical conversations guys will have with each-other, joking around, drinking, talking about girls etc. If I were in a group then I'd be funny at times, somewhat liked (if just to a point) but always intimidated and left out when it came to any interactions of a social kind with women.
I share some interests with them yet there will never be any interest or much interaction with me because of these hugely restrictive social limitations.

I've almost never had girls as friends in my entire life much less an actual girlfriend, nor have any (in adult life) cared about me or done anything more than offer basic acknowledgement, interest, respect and conversation.
I don't really know how they see/feel/think about me (and unfortunately such understanding or an ability to actually consciously think about this is beyond most NT's anyway as well as borderline aspies).

Financially Hopeless
My job(s) haven't been that bad, but it's taking me ages to try and get close to be anything close to management level, never really have access to the ideal kind of money I know other normal people do (and without being sexist it's even worse seeing women my age or younger in such positions).

Socialising and general chit chat and banter
Unless there's specific things to talk about (Eastenders, certain political issues, technology/philosophical topics, films/TV) I can't really hold a conversation as I've discovered most people don't talk about anything in particular and they don't constantly have to ask questions like I do or do anything to desperately get or keep a conversation going. It's frustrating seeing possible opportunities for some meaningless socializing with someone at work or a total stranger, but those chance encounters where they say something to me (things that to me just seem like irrelevant comments/conversation) rarely go answered with anything more than a vague smile or me saying 'uhh, yerr'. Occasionally I do have something relevant or even comical to respond with, but not that often. I'd possibly like to actually meet some aspies, thatd be nice

Becoming more aspie as time went on (Age 10-21)
I've found it harder and harder the older I've got to socialize and haven't made an actual friend (as in someone you'd speak to and see outside of work) since I was 16 (11yrs ago). Talking to girls, being attractive to a few of them and generally making friends with guys- all things that were easy but became harder and harder from age 11-21 after which it just became nigh on impossible for so many reasons (all of which I could actually recall and list).

I couldn't even if I wanted to;
Have sexual partners/experiences (not all at once obviously)- being an aspie is possibly responsible for my wide and in some cases extreme range of tastes in everything, so there's women of all those shapes, sizes, ages (legal of course) and races that I could never hope to do any of the myriad of things (conventional and less conventional) with. All those scenarios you hear about on the radio shows, see in fictional programs and hear about from others directly . The truth of course is that I'd prefer not to feel I need/want these at all, or anything related to love.
And seriously- how the hell do the words 'aspie' and 'NT' or 'aspie' and 'flirting' even make it into the same sentences of forums and articles etc- are you just good looking aspies with social defects, aspies with infinite luck, aspies who are actually mostly NT or am I just worse off and a rarer kind of non functioning aspie
I wonder if I'm a typically kind-hearted person because I want to be, or because I feel I have to be.

 

[Tom]

This kind of question comes up frequently on Aspie forums. Its difficult to answer because nothing stands out as a clear obstacle to having a relationship and yet it evades you persistantly.

As an Aspie myself I struggled with longish stretches between dates/relationships but then they seemed to come in clusters. I do know I put a lot of effort into the 'chase' and I mean a lot. Everything I could think of from personal condition to my place/apartment, to developing social skills and participating in social activities, to developing my tastes and hobbies... I guess you see the picture.

Also things rarely come to you. You must usually go out and get them. You should be reasonably confident (have good self esteem). Who do you expect will respect you if you don't even respect you? The sympathy thing doesn't work.

Do you lack self esteem ? Then do what is possible for you to do to gain it. Whatever you do don't fall back on the catch 22, believing that only having a relationship will give you self esteem. There has to be more to you then that.

 

[Beverly]

You may not like hearing this but, lack of education, self esteem and, self confidence are the problems I see.

Yes I can be a social butterfly, even the life of the party and, I'll do so gladly in the right situation. I've mastered that art of small talk/chit chat and even making false compliments sound and look believable. And Yes I am an Aspie (as if my RAADS-R score doesn't tell you that.)

So how did I do it, how did I become so able to pass as NT as to have guys hitting on me every time I go out and, if I were single, be able to get any guy I wanted to date me? Number one - SELF CONFIDENCE and, that means in everything about yourself form your appearance to the sound of your voice, to your ability to learn to socialize and, ability to adapt to any social situation.

Don't tell me you can't fake it - you can, get out, act confident, carry yourself well, never let anyone look down on you. Don't be snobbish or take a better that they are attitude, just one of being good and knowing you are good. Sure you'll blow it plenty of times, but don't let mistakes and blunders shake that confidence - keep it going at all costs - yes that includes right through an internal meltdown - smile laugh, joke about your own blunders, let them laugh with you (even though you're faking so they are really laughing at you.) See they don't know you're faking and, confidence enough to admit and laugh at your own mistakes is very attractive.

Keep at it and, the day will come when you realize you have learned, you educated yourself on how to socialize, how to get dates, how to flirt, all of it. Hey, there goes your self esteem right up to the top and all that fake confidence, well it's not so fake anymore.

You don't' have to be rich, or even have a great job, the looks of a super model or, a perfectly toned body to be totally hot, totally desirable. projecting a confident but not cocky attitude and, being bold enough to speak up unashamed, even if you're wrong is sexy. People know that if you are that confident publicly, you're just as confident in intimate matters (get books, read learn before it happens so you can pull it off the first time.)

Sure it's a facade, you're overriding your Aspie inclinations, stims, shutdowns and, melt downs to get there but, it's a facade that will serve you well and, once the introductory phase is out of the way, you can open up and explain Asperger's to your chosen one. You've go the confidence and, that isn't going to change so, being Aspie will be fine, just a small quirk about you, no different than her mole she hates, or a whorl in her hair, or her fear of this or that. Not the best thing one could be but it's no big deal, just a part of the whole you and, that's all it really is anyway, one part of a bigger whole person.

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the struggles of being an Aspie that we forget our strengths and loose or confidence and self esteem then, it all snowballs on us and we end up a miserable wreck. it doesn't have to be that way. We are intelligent, we have great memories, we can learn quickly, we can focus on something intently and, accelerate our learning even more and, that included focusing on how to socialize, flirt, etc... it's no different than learning to cook a meal, fix a car, write a song or, grow a garden except instead of object and what to do with them being the things to study in detail, it's humans and how they interact.

Sure we perceive and process things differently than NTs but, we can learn to adapt to that and learn how to compensate for it and, use the wiring we have effectively. No it isn't easy, and you'll blow it a whole bunch of times before you get it right but, you will get it and, I can tell you form experience, it's a great feeling to not have to be intimidated by anything social.

Yes we need our down time, alone time and, being social is always tiring but, we can do it and, do well at it. If we set our minds to learning, taking the falls, meltdowns and pain learning causes, we can blow the stereotypes out of the water and be among the best socialites in there are. I've done it and, I know several others on the spectrum who have as well, some of us very much in the spotlight of fame, on the biggest stages of the world but, you'd never know we were Aspies or Auties when you see us parading before the cameras at the grandest event's, chatting mingling, mixing, smiling, laughing, joking - making it all look so easy. Inside we are burning our reserves at a rapid rate, overriding our need to stim and, by the end of the evening, fighting not to have a meltdown but, no one sees that and, only those closet too us ever hear us speak of it.

We will never be natural socialites but, we most certainly can learn to be great ones.

Think about it, why do you admire the celebrities you admire? Sure they look good but that's just good wardrobe and makeup. The main reason is the exude confidence and, that is attractive, sexy and admirable. How many times have you watched them and thought "Oh wow, I could never do that, I'd be so embarrassed and afraid." Guess what, so are they except they know how to project confidence despite what the feel internally and, it works.

 

[Judge]

Personally I attribute most all my relationships, friendships and important (work) social contacts to little more than dumb luck. Bizarre happenings which were almost never of my own making. In my life I found the harder I tried to obtain them, the less likely they occurred. Yet rare opportunities still came, not through my own making. Admittedly I got to a certain age and those "opportunities" seem to have disappeared altogether for me. I'm alone now.

Let me put it another way. Wait to panic or give up until you're much older. You still have plenty of years for some of those "bizarre happenings" to occur. Life is strange. Of course there are no guarantees.

 

[Slithytoves]

What strikes me when I read your posts is that you are often very focused on what you feel you haven't got, but almost never mention what you have to offer. Granted, you're posting because you do feel you're missing something, but I can't help but wonder if that mindset is coming through to the people you encounter in real life. Women can smell a guy who is needy or has low self-esteem a mile away. The ones who would respond positively to that are usually just as insecure, often problematically so. I've said it before that I think you have some personal work to do before you're truly ready for the market.

I also worry that you separate yourself so much, mentally, from other people, and compare yourself in unproductive ways. For example, looking at a guy who's with a partner and evaluating what he may have that you don't, or being concerned that you don't make as much money as "other normal people do." You have no idea about the circumstances under which a couple you see may have met, or if they're actually happy together and will endure. And from what I gather, there are more than plenty of young men in the UK who don't earn all that much, so what's "normal"? (I'm also sure there are also loads of women who don't make any more than you do, and for whom income isn't the be-all and end-all.)

I'm firmly convinced that the first step towards meeting others, both friends and partners, in your case is contingent on improving your self-esteem, avoiding comparisons, and considering yourself as much a part of the world as anyone else. I'm also starting to think a counselor might be in order, to help you learn to re-frame your thoughts and POV. You seem to struggle to do it on your own. There's no shame in that -- a lot of us need some help -- but time's a-wasting if you really do want to broaden your social circle.

Meanwhile, I tend to think in the space between Tom and Judge, that we meet people who become important to us both by going out and looking for them and finding them by "dumb luck". My friends and partners were nearly all met because I actively sought out social situations (often organized groups, many of them online) and then connected with some cool person or people there half by chance. I'm a huge fan of group situations, especially those that center on a shared interest. There's no pressure on you as the focus of attention but you know the odds are good that you will meet someone you share things in common with.

Here's a thought: Most of the time when you post on AC, it's about your situation. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but maybe you could use this venue to be more social and talk about other things as well. This is certainly a group that will understand you better than most. So maybe you could join in other threads a little more, for some social practice that may help boost your self-esteem and get your mind off your problems?

 

[Judge]

Meanwhile, I tend to think in the space between Tom and Judge, that we meet people who become important to us both by going out and looking for them and finding them by "dumb luck". My friends and partners were nearly all met because I actively sought out social situations (often organized groups, many of them online) and then connected with some cool person or people there half by chance. I'm a huge fan of group situations, especially those that center on a shared interest. There's no pressure on you as the focus of attention but you know the odds are good that you will meet someone you share things in common with.

It's true. In many cases you may still have to throw yourself out there in some way to be noticed. Not necessarily or always as a suitor, but as a friend, associate, whatever.

I think there really are a few women out there who adore us awkward, nerdy guys. The ones who don't ogle women and don't attempt to socialize with them in a sexually predatory manner.

 

[hiraeth]

I can't function in groups of men. To be fair, I can't function in groups of women either, but I find it less anxiety provoking because I'm not expected to, and there is no "negative" reflection on me when I don't. Most of my friends over time have been girls; I owe that largely in part to the fact that I use dating sites as a way to make friends (and rarely ever to actually "date"), since I can't socialize to save my life "in person". I'm asexual and naturally rather androgynous, so maybe that helps with comfort level in establishing friendships.

I have to second (third?) the "dumb luck factor". Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately (depending on your perspective), it's way more true than we'd like to think. I've had really good luck and really bad luck - although - neither is going to appear if we don't try to put ourselves out there in the first place.

Focusing on trying to attract a partner always puts me into a bad mental place, because clearly I can't even manage basic friendships, much less that. So I try to focus on that. First, making acquaintances; then making friends; then making close friends. When I've made a close friend or two, whenever that actually happens, it'll be a good time for me mentally to focus explicitly on developing a partnership. That's the intention, even though things don't work out quite that way. Dating is really complicated and a rejection in that department, at least in my experience/opinion, is much more about the other person than about you. Just like how we can be really close friends with someone but not be able to live with them comfortably as roommates for various lifestyle-related needs of our own -- same thing with partnership. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, it means that your needs and the other person's needs are mismatched. And finding a good match, well.... that sounds like a big luck factor to me.

Is there an aspie social/support group that you can access in person? I'd like to try doing that myself. Just be in a group where I feel safe to be myself, even if I don't connect personally with anyone or contribute much to the discussion, that can help a lot when it comes to building confidence and challenging the belief of abnormality that holds us back.

 

[NTgirl4276]

... nor have any (in adult life) cared about me or done anything more than offer basic acknowledgement, interest, respect and conversation

.... to me, this sounds lovely? acknowledgement, interest, respect, and conversation are an AMAZING start to any relationship. like Slithytoves mentioned earlier, perhaps recognizing what you do have as opposed to dwelling on what's missing will allow you to foster and cultivate strong relationships based on these healthy foundations. the other things (sex, romance, intimacy, affection, camaraderie, etc.) may follow if you give them the chance to grow.

I think there really are a few women out there who adore us awkward, nerdy guys. The ones who don't ogle women and don't attempt to socialize with them in a sexually predatory manner.

I agree with a lot of the comments expressed upthread, but this one most of all

I was so enamored with the Aspie man I recently dated, and one of the things I liked most about him was that he was the first man in my entire life to NOT try to be physically intimate with me right away (or, as it turns out, ever ). Other things? His hands shook when he entered his number into my cellphone, he knew endless facts about totally random topics, and he never apologized or made excuses for the person he was. awkward and nerdy can certainly win the day

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

Ok, well I'm no longer dieing in the same way I was when I first wrote this post, so now I can respiond gradually to all these useful responses and get further info/elaboration.

I do know I put a lot of effort into the 'chase' and I mean a lot. Everything I could think of from personal condition to my place/apartment, to developing social skills and participating in social activities, to developing my tastes and hobbies... I guess you see the picture.

I can relate to the desire (when times are hard and I'm in bad emotional places) to think like that.

The sympathy thing doesn't work.

A shame, I do it unintentionally and too damn well.

Do you lack self esteem ? Then do what is possible for you to do to gain it. Whatever you do don't fall back on the catch 22, believing that only having a relationship will give you self esteem. There has to be more to you then that.

I only lack self esteem when things don't go my way or I'm stepping out of my comfort zone with a need to succeed in the given task I've set myself. Having a relationship does give you self-esteem, but to get one you need it and needing it to get one is the issue.

You may not like hearing this but, lack of education, self esteem and, self confidence are the problems I see.

Good, I don't much care for someone pussyfooting around me in an attempt to spare my feeling (kinda why I dislike women sometimes in that you don't get the direct straight-line answer you need to hear, but instead the sugarcoated web of lies, delays etc, even if kindness is at the heart of some of it). This is what my issue is in regards to how I typically expect things to be (whether or not I'm right or wrong to expect it). I could perhaps agree on the lack of education, the self esteem is more um, muddy, I'd say.

Yes I can be a social butterfly, even the life of the party and, I'll do so gladly in the right situation. I've mastered that art of small talk/chit chat and even making false compliments sound and look believable.

Social butterfly hehe, I think I'm finding I'm a caterpillar still, please give me my wings to take social flight or a cocoon from which to watch and learn from whilst seeing the problems just bounce off of my dense exterior whilst I develop.

So how did I do it, how did I become so able to pass as NT as to have guys hitting on me every time I go out and, if I were single, be able to get any guy I wanted to date me? Number one - SELF CONFIDENCE and, that means in everything about yourself form your appearance to the sound of your voice, to your ability to learn to socialize and, ability to adapt to any social situation.

Don't tell me you can't fake it - you can, get out, act confident, carry yourself well, never let anyone look down on you. Don't be snobbish or take a better that they are attitude, just one of being good and knowing you are good. Sure you'll blow it plenty of times, but don't let mistakes and blunders shake that confidence - keep it going at all costs - yes that includes right through an internal meltdown - smile laugh, joke about your own blunders, let them laugh with you (even though you're faking so they are really laughing at you.) See they don't know you're faking and, confidence enough to admit and laugh at your own mistakes is very attractive.

As a female aspie you'll have those supposed better internal wires to devise your social wordplay from, but yes I get your point. I'll certianly experience PLENTY of knock-backs, humiliation and rejection before or if I eventually succeed, but I can appreciate that nothing is accomplished from doing just that- 'nothing'.

(get books, read learn before it happens so you can pull it off the first time.)

Any recommendations?

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the struggles of being an Aspie that we forget our strengths and loose or confidence and self esteem then, it all snowballs on us and we end up a miserable wreck. it doesn't have to be that way. We are intelligent, we have great memories, we can learn quickly, we can focus on something intently and, accelerate our learning even more and, that included focusing on how to socialize, flirt, etc...

Yes I'm certainly drowing in the struggles if just through input overloads without the emotions to guide and control them as I once used to have.

Yes we need our down time, alone time and, being social is always tiring but, we can do it and, do well at it.

This is why I'd love to be in contact with other aspies (face to face even) who can identify with these struggles/aspie triats (many of which have almost appeared out of no-where within recent years I'm realizing).

If we set our minds to learning, taking the falls, meltdowns and pain learning causes, we can blow the stereotypes out of the water and be among the best socialites in there are. I've done it and, I know several others on the spectrum who have as well, some of us very much in the spotlight of fame, on the biggest stages of the world but, you'd never know we were Aspies or Auties when you see us parading before the cameras at the grandest event's, chatting mingling, mixing, smiling, laughing, joking - making it all look so easy. Inside we are burning our reserves at a rapid rate, overriding our need to stim and, by the end of the evening, fighting not to have a meltdown but, no one sees that and, only those closet too us ever hear us speak of it.

Whats your secret?
Stims??????
Who's in the spotlight of fame?
Somehow I am starting to understand what you mean about social energy burnouts.

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

Yet rare opportunities still came, not through my own making. Admittedly I got to a certain age and those "opportunities" seem to have disappeared altogether for me. I'm alone now.

Let me put it another way. Wait to panic or give up until you're much older. You still have plenty of years for some of those "bizarre happenings" to occur. Life is strange. Of course there are no guarantees.

My best opportunities came when I was much younger and far less of an aspie and when I didn't really need them, because I had the perfect life that was slowly mired by mistakes I could've avoided. I hope I don't end up how you think you've ended up and that there's a few life-lines left, for you too.

What strikes me when I read your posts is that you are often very focused on what you feel you haven't got, but almost never mention what you have to offer. Granted, you're posting because you do feel you're missing something, but I can't help but wonder if that mindset is coming through to the people you encounter in real life. Women can smell a guy who is needy or has low self-esteem a mile away. The ones who would respond positively to that are usually just as insecure, often problematically so. I've said it before that I think you have some personal work to do before you're truly ready for the market.

Hehe, yes you've hit it right on the button there. I do very much feel (in light of the wake of a few years worth of many problems and mistakes) that I'm indeed missing something. And yes, my neediness unfortunately does show a little too much, even though I've somewhat improved on that through advice offered and my own interpretation and implementation of that.

I also worry that you separate yourself so much, mentally, from other people, and compare yourself in unproductive ways.

Yup also true unfortunately.

I'm firmly convinced that the first step towards meeting others, both friends and partners, in your case is contingent on improving your self-esteem, avoiding comparisons, and considering yourself as much a part of the world as anyone else. I'm also starting to think a counselor might be in order, to help you learn to re-frame your thoughts and POV. You seem to struggle to do it on your own.

The latter sentence is probably an important observation, you've added another conclusive vote in an area I was already slightly wondering about. I'm on the counseling waiting list too.

My friends and partners were nearly all met because I actively sought out social situations (often organized groups, many of them online) and then connected with some cool person or people there half by chance. I'm a huge fan of group situations, especially those that center on a shared interest.

Well hey I'd certainly not object to (at some point in the near future) meeting other UK aspies from this site as you once suggested we all do.

Here's a thought: Most of the time when you post on AC, it's about your situation. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but maybe you could use this venue to be more social and talk about other things as well. This is certainly a group that will understand you better than most. So maybe you could join in other threads a little more, for some social practice that may help boost your self-esteem and get your mind off your problems?

Yer thats true, I feel guilty asking all the qustions of others although I have occassionally gone hunting around for threads to respond to, but I guess I just worry or wonder where the line is drawn as to when I stop adding comments/answers to the potential myriad of threads I can and sometimes have shown interest in responding to.

 

[Judge]

My best opportunities came when I was much younger and far less of an aspie and when I didn't really need them, because I had the perfect life that was slowly mired by mistakes I could've avoided. I hope I don't end up how you think you've ended up and that there's a few life-lines left, for you too.

Well, keep in mind you have neurological hindsight I never had at your age. If you do find a relationship especially if with an NT, use what you know to maintain it. As I look back, all my relationships with NT women failed largely because neither of us were unaware of such differences.

There's never a guarantee of not making mistakes, but at least you can try. And if it does happen you'll know why. Most importantly though you still have time. Time enough for the girl you never contemplated to enter your life.

 

[Beverly]

Well, I'd start with getting your self esteem and confidence up there, even when you fail, you did your best and, there is no reason to ever be ashamed of doing your best, even when no one else thinks it's good enough. You tried, failed and learned.

As Ed Sheeran says "I can't tell you how to succeed but, I can tell you that trying to please all of the people is the best way to fail." He's right, if you try to please everyone, you've doomed yourself to failure before you even start.

For books, anything on intimacy and such that you think would be interesting and, not just how to have sex books. How to communicate effectively with women would be a big help, something like "Men are form Mars and Women are From Venus."

Still he main thing is to work on you first.

As for some of us in the spotlight, Courtney Love, Daryl Hannah, Susan Boyle, all on the spectrum and, there are more, some have made being on the spectrum public, others have not but some of the biggest sex symbols and hottest stars out there are on the spectrum. It's always been that way, our focus, creativity and, uncanny ability to don any mask we wish makes many of us ideally suited for a life of fame. We don't suffer under the off stage/camera isolation like NTs do, we welcome the separation from society. It's a safety requirement that comes with fame, but we have no problem with having guards that run off anyone that might attempt to talk to us and, we don't mind locking the world out of our homes and lives save for the time we have to be in public and, be seen - we thrive on it.

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

I think there really are a few women out there who adore us awkward, nerdy guys. The ones who don't ogle women and don't attempt to socialize with them in a sexually predatory manner.

Too fewer women of this kind unfortunately, and when you do learn of them, there so far away (e.g america) that they may as well be on another planet or within the infinity of cyberspace and without corporeal form. Grrr...curse you NTgirl4276 , you're just another one of the few I could count on that list.

I can't function in groups of men. To be fair, I can't function in groups of women either, but I find it less anxiety provoking because I'm not expected to, and there is no "negative" reflection on me when I don't. Most of my friends over time have been girls; I owe that largely in part to the fact that I use dating sites as a way to make friends (and rarely ever to actually "date"), since I can't socialize to save my life "in person". I'm asexual and naturally rather androgynous, so maybe that helps with comfort level in establishing friendships.

Hmm interesting, alas I don't ever seem to encounter people like you to share in that in whatever capacity that (might/could/would like that) to be in. Barring childhood/early teenage years, mine too were all same-sex friends.

Just like how we can be really close friends with someone but not be able to live with them comfortably as roommates for various lifestyle-related needs of our own -- same thing with partnership. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, it means that your needs and the other person's needs are mismatched. And finding a good match, well.... that sounds like a big luck factor to me.

Is there an aspie social/support group that you can access in person? I'd like to try doing that myself. Just be in a group where I feel safe to be myself, even if I don't connect personally with anyone or contribute much to the discussion, that can help a lot when it comes to building confidence and challenging the belief of abnormality that holds us back.

I very much know what you mean in the first paragraph. As for the latter, I only wish there was a way of finding or being put into contact with such groups, really I do. The only thing remotely close thus far has been a possibility of meeting the UK AspieCentral crew living in proximity to me.

I was so enamored with the Aspie man I recently dated, and one of the things I liked most about him was that he was the first man in my entire life to NOT try to be physically intimate with me right away (or, as it turns out, ever ). Other things? His hands shook when he entered his number into my cellphone, he knew endless facts about totally random topics, and he never apologized or made excuses for the person he was. awkward and nerdy can certainly win the day

Awkward and nerdy is too overlooked. But yes in my case I certainly don't lack a strong (dare I say extreme) sexual desire/fantasies (even though I've been in huge conflict with them ever since they begun) but fortunately I can lay claim to having always had varying levels of expert control over most of my emotions so that they can (depending on what emotions they are and many other factors) be at my disposal and create good impressions towards those (very few) that care.

For books, anything on intimacy and such that you think would be interesting and, not just how to have sex books.

Well yer I certainly wasn't thinking about the sex ones, ironically that's one area that although (barring one short and failed relationship) I didn't come off as being that bad at and didn't lack confidence in, just experience.

 

[Slithytoves]

I think there really are a few women out there who adore us awkward, nerdy guys. The ones who don't ogle women and don't attempt to socialize with them in a sexually predatory manner.

Awkward and nerdy, yay! Self-loathing and apparently desperate, not so yay. (Not saying you're these things, AspieGuy.) The nerds who seem to do well are the ones who may be awkward, but still seem to have a sense of themselves, a positive attitude and don't try too hard. The rest end usually end up as eternal wallflowers unless they are lucky enough to meet someone just like themselves.

You're right on about not ogling women or seeming predatory. And it's all too easy to send out the wrong vibe unintentionally. How best to make sure you avoid it? I'd say think of and address females as people, not as women specifically (aside from having good manners).

Focusing on trying to attract a partner always puts me into a bad mental place, because clearly I can't even manage basic friendships, much less that. So I try to focus on that. First, making acquaintances; then making friends; then making close friends. When I've made a close friend or two, whenever that actually happens, it'll be a good time for me mentally to focus explicitly on developing a partnership.

That sounds like an excellent strategy. Crawl before you attempt to walk, and walk well before you try to run. I've never understood men who have lousy dating histories but continue to think they should, or can, move quickly through the preliminaries.

Dating is really complicated and a rejection in that department, at least in my experience/opinion, is much more about the other person than about you.

I so agree with this! People reject potential partners for so many different reasons, often before they really know much about them. It's not even worth guessing people's rationales. Too individual. So it's a trap to imagine it's necessarily about you. Not a bad idea to listen when someone is brave enough to tell you why they're checking out, though. If there's a pattern, it's time to reflect.

 

[Slithytoves]

And yes, my neediness unfortunately does show a little too much, even though I've somewhat improved on that through advice offered and my own interpretation and implementation of that.

It's good to hear that you're actively working on it.

I know you are ultimately looking to meet a partner, but if you consciously re-framed your intention and told yourself that what you're looking for first is a friendship, might that help you keep your self-described "neediness" in check? You have so much going on in your head, as pertains to women. Maybe taking things in very small steps, psychologically, would help. Approach people with no long-term goal in mind. Many great relationships start with innocent, very general intentions, without any thought of romance at all.

In that case, reference sources about general socialization might be better than ones about deeper forms of intimacy. hiraeth's idea about making acquaintances, etc., in gradual stages seems very sensible.

You're doing a great job responding to our comments, by the way. Friendly and open-minded. That's the diamond in the rough showing through, and very brightly.

I'm on the counseling waiting list too.

Fantastic! I'm glad you're open to it. It might not even take very much to get you on the right track in your thinking.

I feel guilty asking all the qustions of others although I have occassionally gone hunting around for threads to respond to, but I guess I just worry or wonder where the line is drawn as to when I stop adding comments/answers to the potential myriad of threads I can and sometimes have shown interest in responding to.

AC doesn't have a limit for respectful responses within site guidelines. If something interests you or you can relate to what someone has shared, just go for it. I do understand your concern about "where the line is drawn" here. Things like boundaries aren't easy to learn if it's not a natural strong suit, but reading others' interactions is a great guide for appropriate tone and content.

It's so easy for us all to say you need to work on self-esteem, etc., but the "how" part isn't quite so simple. Even online social venues like this one can help you smooth out rough edges in communication and give you a chance to see how others interact, for better and worse. Being a fully-engaged member of this community may also help you identify your assets and strengths, as well as areas you may need to work on. The more you join in, the more social experience and self-confidence you'll gain. This site is especially good because people share at such a genuine, personal level, and we understand that some of us may be/feel awkward. I know from working with you on your Match.com profile that you have plenty of depth and dimension to you. Get comfortable sharing more of yourself here, making conversation in this safe space, and you'll develop skills for getting your good qualities noticed IRL.

Remind me privately where you live and I'll help you hunt down your nearest Aspie/HFA group. Maybe once I get settled in the UK I'll be able to get a bunch of AC members together for a meet-up, but that's going to be several months from now.

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

So
Slithytoves (and anyone else who wants to advise/comment) before I go to bed I thought I'd really open up as well as inform because I was reminded today as to just how complex (perhaps overly so) I am as well as other important things all within ther space of a return 200 miles car journey.

You perhaps inadvertently got me thinking and suddenly I was brainstorming ideas and creating knowledge and understanding of myself, something I realised I haven't actually done in many months or possibly a year or more (I used to enjoy doing this whilst going for a walk around town during the evening).

The low self esteem is actually limited to things of which I either question whether or not I have the right to be a part of and or of which I was in unfamiliar territory. I can't go through the whole conversation I kinda had with myself on that car journey but I'd like to share some of it because my problem is that some of the things I come up with are so complex that even councilors have been seriously challenged by me and admitted that I have a lot going on in my head compared to most of their patients (I've proven that clearly, without bragging, that my knowledge is easily on par with their own, this has been supported by the types of services/sessions I've been offered compared to most others). Whilst no-one (or at least I don't think so) can really get to grips with the things I could mention, certainly it's people who are aspies or very familiar with them that'd have a better chance.

Work and relationships are the only two areas that my self-esteem is probably low, outside of this it seems that I am and always have been a rock with belief in myself that nothing and no-one can challenge (which without being more specific, is just one of the many known sources of strength I have). With regards to relationships then, the lack of self-esteem comes from the fact that I'm entering a territory or marketplace that I spent most of my life never being or wanting or needing to be a part of (never knowing that it'd be extremely difficult for me to be a part of it even if I wanted to be). You see, if I need to speak to a girl about something or I need something specific from her (nothing at all to do with love or friendship I mean) then I have an absolute confidence in myself that can never be challenged because I totally believe I have the right to do so. However, when it comes to a relationship, the way I seem to see it is that I'm chasing after her, I don't have to and in some (or many, who knows) cases that pursuit is not desired because they never asked for it or hinted in any such way. But then along comes me who essentially puts them in the position of having to deal with me in whatever way they deem appropriate. It'd be different if they initially went after me first, because that to me is a clear sign that they want it and thus I am totally unrestricted and have more freedom to respond, but this is almost never the case. To even start to have some self esteem in this situation, I'd have to be convinced or be able to convince myself that I'm doing nothing wrong, that I have the right to do what I'm doing (providing its not causing any actual physical or emotional harm of course), that I can or should try to do this (because.....) and that I can be part or all of their typical expectation of what a guy/boyfriend should be in their eyes. Unfortunately I see rejection as being a way of them implying "how dare you, what makes you think you can look at me in that way or that you have the right to say those things to me, I never once implied I did or asked you to". I feel guilty, wrongful and sleezy just by thinking, much less trying to make romance work with an unsuspecting woman of my affection. I feel as if wanting or needing it to work does not justify or give me the right to have any expectations what so ever and that it'd almost be a punishment for that person to have me as their boyfriend (as oppose to the myriad of other 'socially normal' and possibly slightly better looking guys that they'd really wished they'd have chosen or been chosen by as oppose to having to 'settle for....') and so I have to be so grateful and yet worried at the same time that she'll find someone else and that realistically I could be searching for years thereafter just to find another potential ms. right. For me it's just a simple question of whether I feel I truely deserve her and often the answer is that I don't and never will because with me there's always (seemingly) a dishonest/perverted ulterior motive). Anything in regards to physical contact or sex etc also follows a similar path in which I see myself as the ingeniously selfish and manipulative predator who deserves no sympathy from anyone and from which she needs rescuing from by the other guy who has far more genuine and preferred intentions. I don't mean to sound so negative, but this is what I often think/feel.

I may never be able to get a relationship working (or maybe I could) due to realizing just how different my mindset is to the average woman and that it may not be possible to change enough of that (assuming I'm willing or capable of it), but whatever happens, it's the knowledge and understanding of why I'm currently failing that's useful to me, because above all else it's the not knowing/not understanding that's causing me the problems more so than the not succeeding or getting things my own way with women. I thrive on understanding everything about anything I need to understand and can write 10's or 100's of pages about them (from which I can disect and create knew knowledge/actions etc), but when I'm pursuing something so unknown to me (of which I learn so much but yet never as much as I need) this is where the vulnerability kicks in and I have the problems of not being able to cope with not having/knowing it because relationships do not follow set patterns, women can be so completely illogical, weird or over-reacting and yet this can and is of course just an opinion formed from the lack of understanding or social interaction.

This is largely (though not entirely) the internal opposition I face in the very situations I'm made (by myself) to sometimes beleive I need in order to stay sane and happyish. So hopefully from what I've said thus far (and I'll leave it at this too) there is room for suggestions, comments etc that will force me to address things, change my way of thinking or fill in missing gaps etc.

For better and worse I'm by no means your average aspie at all (and most of us know how complex and challenging that can be even at it's easiest).

 

[Beverly]

The_Hopeless_Aspie_Guy I think I see the problem. For whatever reason you don't think you have the right to have a partner, to have the same intimate experiences the majority of humans have. I don't know why because you do have that right and, you deserve it as much as I or anyone else does.

You have the confidence every other area, use it not to chase a girl but, to attract them to you. Look good, go socialize with the outward goal simply to meet people and make casual friends - you are entitled to those, same as anyone else. Be confident and happy - it's attractive and, contagious.

You don't have to be a 10 to be irresistible. I don't know any 10's, not even the current male sex symbols are 10s. They don't go looking for girls, they attract hoard of them by being confident and happy, by not being afraid to be the center of attention. Some of them can't even sing or dance worth a darn, but, they can still be confident in every detail about themselves and, it shows, it gets attention and, it's attractive. Women want to be with them, not for what they do but for who they seem to be. A confident man is a good bet, he will have a decent job, even if it might be a few promotions away, he'll get it, he'll help you do things because he's confident he can do whatever you might need him to do - good bet and, a good date.

So, step one ask yourself "Why don't I deserve the same social and intimate experiences every other human on this planet deserves?" I don't know the answer because being an Aspie sure as heck isn't the answer, but you do, somewhere in there, you know the answer.

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

You have the confidence every other area, use it not to chase a girl but, to attract them to you. Look good, go socialize with the outward goal simply to meet people and make casual friends - you are entitled to those, same as anyone else.

It's certainly something I'm inclined to want to try and yet for the few times I have to get additional friends I've either failed without knowing how, or in the case of the only girl I ever managed to have as a friend in my adult life, I had to do too much to keep her interested and although we got on well I could tell I was hardly compatible with the rest of her friends. It was unsurprising that once we no longer worked in the same place that she stopped responding to me and quickly I had to move on and forget.

So, step one ask yourself "Why don't I deserve the same social and intimate experiences every other human on this planet deserves?" I don't know the answer because being an Aspie sure as heck isn't the answer, but you do, somewhere in there, you know the answer.

Sometimes it's perhaps not even about deserving it, it's simply feeling too settled in what has always been the norm for me (basically not getting myself into situations with women that deep down I knew were almost a fantasy because of all those immense differences that stop them from ever really doing more than just chatting with me in a work-place and never wanting to go any further than that. It infuriates me that really, with all the potentially good and or caring advice I've been given thus far in this thread, that realistically the only difference I can make to the situation is to grab hold of those numerous opportunities where I see someone attractive by biting the bullet and I dunno, asking for a phone number or any other unlikely attempt to try and initiate a relationship of some kind (it's either a gift or a curse to appreciate such an extreme range of ages, looks, ethnicities, sizes/shapes).

and thus I come back to square one where only the partial knowledge of knowing why I fail can really be achieved through increased efforts or conversation/advice. I actually had a good conversation with 2 ladies in a store yesterday about a TV show they were talking about and they very much acknowledged and appreciated my involvement (saying (whilst looking directly at me and not the other person) "now where were we" once the customer had left, but I realized that if that were anything other subject other than the x amount of programs I know loads about or philosophies or technology etc (maybe instead they talk about kids or some kind of laughing small talk I've never been able to connect with) that realistically there would be no conversation or interaction as I can't do the 'in between' stuff that is seemingly essential to friendships or romances (and why I used to sometimes think I was sociable and other times that I was not).

And now I just feel like I'm being really awkward or ungrateful and trying peoples patience on here (and yours maybe) because I'm sounding like I can't do this or won't try/do that and that perhaps I'm not listening or just that I really am perhaps as bad as I said I was and in need of such a higher amount of help despite initially seeming normal face to face (to a point anyway). Ooh I just learnt something that might be true, I have all the tactics and ways of thinking to make anyone understand anything and to amaze others with the staggering level of detail, but not the specific knowledge to initiate the feelings to make this work and meanwhile the people posting on here have all the knowledge and to some extent the means to share it, just not nearly close enough to the level I would require for it to get things working for me. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems as though you could all only so expertly and precisely tell me exactly what to do (or not to do) if you were there in person seeing me interact with others. And I'm hoping I've not offended anyone by saying this, if so I'm very sorry
.

t's so easy for us all to say you need to work on self-esteem, etc., but the "how" part isn't quite so simple. Even online social venues like this one can help you smooth out rough edges in communication and give you a chance to see how others interact, for better and worse. Being a fully-engaged member of this community may also help you identify your assets and strengths, as well as areas you may need to work on. The more you join in, the more social experience and self-confidence you'll gain. This site is especially good because people share at such a genuine, personal level, and we understand that some of us may be/feel awkward. I know from working with you on your Match.com profile that you have plenty of depth and dimension to you. Get comfortable sharing more of yourself here, making conversation in this safe space, and you'll develop skills for getting your good qualities noticed IRL.

Note to self, ^^^^ this is worth trying, thanks.

 

[Slithytoves]

I think I see the problem. For whatever reason you don't think you have the right to have a partner, to have the same intimate experiences the majority of humans have. I don't know why because you do have that right

Look good, go socialize with the outward goal simply to meet people and make casual friends - you are entitled to those, same as anyone else. Be confident and happy - it's attractive and, contagious.

This is where we disagree. I'm very wary of terms like "right" and "entitled" when it comes to relationships of any kind. The reality is, we're not entitled to anything. If we think we are, we can make critical mistakes and become resentful and bitter when connections don't happen. Relationships with other people have to be earned. That's why it's so important that we do the personal work necessary to make ourselves appealing and reciprocal. The sense that we have a "right" or are "entitled" to relationships with others engenders a mindset that if we don't have them, it's us against them and it's not our fault if they don't respond well to us. I see hints of anger and us/them thinking in AspieGuy already, so this isn't terminology I would personally encourage.

"Deserve" can pose a similar problem, depending on how a person looks at it. Put in the context of "right" and "entitled", and "Why don't I deserve...?" as you put it in your post can be an unproductive question (not assuming you meant it that way). It only truly works if "desert" is appreciated in the frame of "What have I done/not done to make myself a person whom others would want to know?"

You don't have to be a 10 to be irresistible. I don't know any 10's, not even the current male sex symbols are 10s. They don't go looking for girls, they attract hoards of them by being confident and happy, by not being afraid to be the center of attention. Some of them can't even sing or dance worth a darn, but, they can still be confident in every detail about themselves and, it shows, it gets attention and, it's attractive. Women want to be with them, not for what they do but for who they seem to be.

You may know from other threads that I have been a personal assistant to both well-known recording artists and film actors. My last relationship before Harrison was with an iconic character actor with a large cult following, and in my travels with him to genre conventions, I had the opportunity to see a number of single male stars interact with women for days at a time. I also had a chance to converse at length with many of these men, and got a good sense of their personalities.

From my experience, I don't think male stars/sex symbols are good examples for learning what attracts women. Most all of the "hoards" who approach them do so for their money and status (though we both know many known names aren't nearly as wealthy as most people think), and for the delusional fantasy image women build in their heads (the equivalent of your "who they seem to be"), not because those men are actually confident, happy people.

I had a particularly interesting weekend at a convention once, watching two single former child actors (still working and "famous"). Actor A is very confident, has a big, "happy", funny personality and loves being the center of attention. Actor B is relatively reserved and not much of a go-getter. I watched Actor A hold court with a number of women, asking a couple to dinner and giving others special access at the convention. By the end of the weekend, I heard more than one of those lucky ladies say the guy was a total ass, their image of him dashed to pieces. I watched women talk with Actor B, who was much less "interested"/generally outgoing, and he ended up spending most all of the weekend talking to just two ladies, both of whom came away saying what a wonderful, polite, humble man he is. Guess who got the phone numbers?

The lesson I saw played out again and again in my time doing conventions was that the guys -- even celebs -- who made good connections with women weren't overeager, or overly anything. What made things work for them was their courtesy, their thoughtfulness, and a quiet, steady brand of confidence that was unintimidating and easy to be around. No grabbing the spotlight required or desired.

Nadador, formerly a very active member of AC whose TV career keeps him away from here much of the time, is known as an incredibly appealing man among female fans who have met him in person. I came to AC through him, when he was dating a good friend of mine, and I have seen him interact with people in person. What makes him so appealing is his gentleness, his humility, his courtesy, his tendency to listen more than/as much as talk, and the crystal-clear impression that he is self-secure and intelligent without having to act like he is.

If you're not comfortable with all of yourself and well-practiced at finding the middle ground, "confidence" can easily come across as arrogance or desperation. So I'm leery of advising someone with low self-esteem in some areas and almost extreme confidence in others to present according to the example you're describing. Part of AspieGuy's problem may well be that he's trying too hard as it is, and women can sense that something doesn't jibe.

 

[qwerty]

I'm very wary of terms like "right" and "entitled" when it comes to relationships of any kind. The reality is, we're not entitled to anything. If we think we are, we can make critical mistakes and become resentful and bitter when connections don't happen. Relationships with other people have to be earned. That's why it's so important that we do the personal work necessary to make ourselves appealing and reciprocal. The sense that we have a "right" or are "entitled" to relationships with others engenders a mindset that if we don't have them, it's us against them and it's not our fault if they don't respond well to us. I see hints of anger and us/them thinking in AspieGuy already, so this isn't terminology I would personally encourage.

"Deserve" can pose a similar problem, depending on how a person looks at it. Put in the context of "right" and "entitled", the question "Why don't I deserve...?" as you put it in your post can be an unproductive question (not assuming you meant it that way). It only truly works if "desert" is appreciated in the frame of "What have I done/not done to make myself a person whom others would want to know?"

This, what Slithytoves has said is really important stuff to take in and reflect on The_Hopeless_Aspie_Guy. This is some of the best real, genuine advice you might
ever get, you seem to respond really positively to straight up, cut to the chase advice
and well, i have been mulling what Slithytoves has said here and have found it very
insightful and helpful myself.

There is a whole community here who in many cases struggle with social situations
and coping with how to communicate with dating and much of the stuff you seem to
be going through. This is perhaps the most supportive bunch of people i have ever
had the privilege to be part of.
Try getting to know some people, maybe talk about some of your interests and stuff
you mentioned that you enjoy philosophy, technology, films/TV etc.. well there are
many people here who enjoy the same things and there are threads that you will
hopefully really enjoy on these topics.

I will give you my two pennies worth of advice:

It sounds like you are way too focused on this at the moment
I know for myself when an issue is right at the front of my mind
then i will keep making mistakes or reinforcing some of the negative
ideas i have because i have been over thinking the issue, so the next
time the situation arises that i have the issue with I will balls it up
which just makes me feel worse about the issue.

Why not try and put it on the back burner for now and try to have some
fun instead of dwelling on this issue you have?
Try to talk with other people here and get used to feeling accepted and
enjoying the time with people who have similar interests and stuff.
I think it is fantastic that you have your name on a waiting list for some
counselling as from reading some of what you have written i think it would
be a good idea to stop torturing yourself over this until you can get some
good help with working on healthier ways to approach your issues.

I think that while you stop obsessing over the interactions and how it could all
go pear shaped with every female you meet, that sounds exhausting to me and
will definitely not be helping your situation any, it could even be part of the
problem. So take a few deep breaths and give yourself permission to enjoy
yourself, get to know yourself, improve your social skills and promise yourself
to wait till you can really get to the bottom of your issues with a psychologist
before you even think of starting a relationship.
Women you meet will be more likely to be friendlier if they don't sense any
issues and baggage about gender n stuff.

btw nice ta meet ya, what kind of philosophy do you find interesting?
i really enjoy it too.