911 call...........

[Aspychata]

So awhile back, l worked in a liquor store in a very high end tourist spot. Singer Pink was there my nite working a shift.

But with high end tourists, we have the tourist industry workers, and sadly the homeless population.

This one homeless guy use to be a teacher. Nice guy, very respectful, just couldn't stop drinking. The local neighbors would give him money for odd jobs around their house. So he was on a binge maybe going on several weeks.But his buddy picked up bottles for him and l only worked p/t so l didn't know full extent of how much he drank. We tried to help out the nicer ones at our store. We would give them food from the deli when it was cold. We also helped out a veteran who called me a bad name but later he apologized.

One day the former teacher opened the door and was out of it. He is about 50-65 years old. He barely made it to counter but he wasn't drunk just weak. I said hi, and l kindly asked if l could call 911 for him because it look like that to me. But because he is very polite, l appealed to him nicely. He said no. He came to the front counter, l asked him again, he said no. I sold him a pint size of vodka because he wasn't intoxicated and he wasn't belligerent. And he left.
But the rest of my shift, l had horrible thoughts of what if he dies in his sleep? And am l responsible for this? The next day l was at work. And l found out that my co-worker called a ambulance at noon because he didn't get up and his buddy alerted our store. He was taken to detox and sobered up but it was about 4 weeks later. His sister came down and found him a hotel room. And he came back to the store later and then he moved away. I did tell him l offered to call 911 for him. I had helped him with teeshirts because he needed them at one point.

What would you have done? I never was sure if l should have just called 911 and detained him. I was by myself in the store. It has bothered me that l handled it wrong. I don't even know if 911 would have taken him. We only don't sell if the client is intoxicated or rude or underage or combo of those.

 

[menander]

If someone says No then I would respect that if he was not in clear danger to himself or others. Then, if I saw him later, I would tell him how bad I felt and specifically ask him if he would have prefered me to have called. You cannot know how things will unfold. You simply can't. He knows you care. That is clear. You are kinder to people like that than most!

 

[Aspychata]

It's funny how the guilt just really screws with your head.

My co-worker who was a veteran, went on his Facebook page and sorta declared he was going to end life because his girlfriend dumped him. So l had to handle out of state calls from his family and police visits trying to find him.

I did call and make a plea that he call our supervisor because he was a no show at work. Luckily that resolved in the end. That job was seriously taxing my poor brain.

 

[Judge]

Seems to me assuming the man was in fact not intoxicated, your best solution would have been to call 911 whether the man left the premises or not. And not to forcibly detain him. To let the authorities field the call, whether they chose to respond or not.

As a Good Samaritan you're not legally liable for whatever emergency services are warranted for the person you call for. Conversely forcibly detaining much of any patron could put you and your employer at risk.

 

[Aspychata]

Sorry. I meant distract him not detain him. I never use force for anything. But very sound advice. That thin line of are you suppose to call? Never have been in that situation before. He may have left store before the ambulance came. It's a island only connected by two long bridges to mainland. The ambulance would have made it out in 45 mins on a good day. The reality is - it would have come more like 55 mins or more. I wouldn't be able to distract him that long and l wouldn't know where to send the EMT after he left the store.

 

[Judge]

Sorry. I meant distract him not detain him. But very sound advice. That thin line of are you suppose to call? Never have been in that situation before. He may have left store before the ambulance came. It's a island only connected by two long bridges to mainland. The ambulance would have made it out in 45 mins on a good day. The reality is - it would have come more like 55 mins or more. I wouldn't be able to distract him that long and l wouldn't know where to send the EMT after he left the store.

Look at this way. That under the circumstances you can look at from two different perspectives:

1) From an insurance/liability perspective, your best bet was what happened. The patron didn't appear intoxicated, so you sold him the liquor and most importantly he immediately left the premises. Had he collapsed inside the store for any reason, there's potential exposure involving the business owner's premises liability.

2) From a human and ethical perspective, you could have simply called 911 and let the EMTs decide what was best under the circumstances. Though it seems probable he would have left the store before they got there.

If you had any concerns about legal liquor liability, keep in mind that California liberalized such laws some two years ago. It's doubtful under such circumstances that such liability was ever at risk.

IMO it's fair for you to stop ruminating over what happened. You did ok, though yes you did have options.

 

[Aspychata]

From an autism perspective: l was getting wrapped up emotionally feeling horrible about the situation which normally doesn't happen to me. So it helps me to discuss this now and pick this apart. It's great to be logical and ethical but l got sucked in emotionally - over- whelmed then l have felt guilty about the entire thing. This was my first attempt at really talking about it. Thanks @Judge for being a voice of reason. For some reason fate keeps pointing me in this direction of protecting lives. I need to get better at this.

 

[Judge]

From a autism perspective: l was getting wrapped up emotionally feeling horrible about the situation which normally doesn't happen to me. So it helps me to discuss this now and pick this apart.

Yep. Ruminating over the past....it's what we do.

But yeah- seriously I don't see you at fault regardless of which way you could have responded.

I once witnessed a man who seemed in distress having partially fallen while pushing a shopping cart. I ran to help him, propped him back up on his feet where he promptly said he was ok. But I was thinking he wasn't, but then what else could I do? Yeah, I felt bad about it too, but left him be to continue his shopping. Wondering if he was going to make it home ok.

 

[Aspychata]

That's great you were there. I almost saw this homeless lady faint in LA from heat. I gave her a cold water. We can only do so much in our lifetime. Human suffering is still difficult to see.

 

[Thinx]

This also trips you up into your tendency to ruminate I think, and second guess yourself. It seems like, because it was so serious, you don't like to distract yourself from it, but keep on worrying.

One idea I find helpful is that I learn through experience, and maybe because of how we are we do need to experience something in order to get an idea of how we might handle it another time. For me, I just mostly bumble through things the first time I encounter them.

In the end, I got to a stage of experience in my work areas that I really had mostly seen it all before, and could comfortably handle most dilemmas. Like, finally...

Ultimately this man was an adult who made a choice. We could say, ethically, he put you in an awkward position. It's good to know that he survived his poor choice.

 

[Aspychata]

This also trips you up into your tendency to ruminate I think, and second guess yourself. It seems like, because it was so serious, you don't like to distract yourself from it, but keep on worrying.

One idea I find helpful is that I learn through experience, and maybe because of how we are we do need to experience something in order to get an idea of how we might handle it another time. For me, I just mostly bumble through things the first time I encounter them.

In the end, I got to a stage of experience in my work areas that I really had mostly seen it all before, and could comfortably handle most dilemmas. Like, finally...

Ultimately this man was an adult who made a choice. We could say, ethically, he put you in an awkward position. It's good to know that he survived his poor choice.

It was tough choice to figure out the correct way to handle it. In retro- maybe l should have called the non-emergency island police number and alerted them. But then we get into a technical liability area and trying to protect one self from liability issues. So you can't quite run through all of this as it happens but only go back and revisit your choices. Sometimes there are no right answers, only the best choice. Some states are more ligitous then others too. Being on the spectrum means l need to see all the choices l could have made.

 

[Judge]

It was tough choice to figure out the correct way to handle it. In retro- maybe l should have called the non-emergency island police number and alerted them. But then we get into a technical liability area and trying to protect one self from liability issues.

How true. In real time trying to work the problem on the job can be a nightmare. Enough to make one's head spin sometimes.

But then for me, that was basically my job for nearly two decades as an insurance underwriter. Where if you screw up, it's likely to be co$tly.

 

[Fino]

What does "wasn't drunk just weak" mean? He was sleepy? He had been drinking but wasn't drunk?

 

[Jumpback]

From an autism perspective: l was getting wrapped up emotionally feeling horrible about the situation which normally doesn't happen to me. So it helps me to discuss this now and pick this apart. It's great to be logical and ethical but l got sucked in emotionally - over- whelmed then l have felt guilty about the entire thing. This was my first attempt at really talking about it. Thanks @Judge for being a voice of reason. For some reason fate keeps pointing me in this direction of protecting lives. I need to get better at this.

I don't know if this relates, but I know that there is something in some personality theories where underused tendencies tend to come out as childlike. Like if someone is overly logical or someone is overly emotional when the other side gets triggered it is so underused that it's like a logical person might be like a child throwing a temper tantrum or an emotional person might be so logical they are just cruel, or something

On a side note, I have to quite drinking

 

[Jumpback]

So awhile back, l worked in a liquor store in a very high end tourist spot. Singer Pink was there my nite working.

But with high end tourists, we have the tourist industry workers, and sadly the homeless population.

This one homeless guy use to be a teacher. Nice guy, very respectful, just couldn't stop drinking. The local neighbors would give him money for odd jobs around their house. So he was on a binge maybe going on several weeks.But his buddy picked up bottles for him and l only worked p/t so l didn't know full extent of how much he drank. We tried to help out the nicer ones at our store. We would give them food from the deli when it was cold. We also helped out a veteran who called me a bad name but later he apologized.

One day the former teacher opened the door and was out of it. He is about 50-65 years old. He barely made it to counter but he wasn't drunk just weak. I said hi, and l kindly asked if l could call 911 for him because it look like that to me. But because he is very polite, l appealed to him nicely. He said no. He came to the front counter, l asked him again, he said no. I sold him a pint size of vodka because he wasn't intoxicated and he wasn't belligerent. And he left.
But the rest of my shift, l had horrible thoughts of what if he dies in his sleep? And am l responsible for this? The next day l was at work. And l found out that my co-worker called a ambulance at noon because he didn't get up and his buddy alerted our store. He was taken to detox and sobered up but it was about 4 weeks later. His sister came down and found him a hotel room. And he came back to the store later and then he moved away. I did tell him l offered to call 911 for him. I had helped him with teeshirts because he needed them at one point.

What would you have done? I never was sure if l should have just called 911 and detained him. I was by myself in the store. It has bothered me that l handled it wrong. I don't even know if 911 would have taken him. We only don't sell if the client is intoxicated or rude or underage or combo of those.

From an alcoholics perspective, he was probably scared of going to the hospital where he couldn't drink and going through withdrawal

Withdrawal is what keeps me quitting, because alcohol actually helps with anxiety and indecision, but I have reached a point where I just don't want to self medicate anymore. But then if you quit you have daily things that must get done that have to get done,while going through withdrawal. If I could just take 4 weeks off from life I'd quit, but if I do that I'll get evicted for non payment of rent

 

[Aspychata]

I am not a nurse, but the tolerance level becomes higher with chronic abuse. We were warned that some people have been drinking so long and can put away a huge amount of liquor but not appear drunk. So l don't know his drinking patterns. One time - l did tell the veteran that was his last for the nite. I am pretty sure he complained. It's a gray area. We are subjectively making a decision. I sold liquor to one guy who fell down the minute he left the store. I did call the cabbie later to ask if he made it in to his apartment since a cab picked him up. It's not a bar situation, plenty people show up drunk at the store, so you have to refuse service.

He was speaking coherently. He might have been weak from not eating, because sometimes all he had was one meal for the day depending on his money. Alcohol was more important then food to him l believe. But l worked p/t So l don't know what he had the day before. We do our best to stay on top. Because liquor licenses are about 500,000 dollars in this state, you don't want your boss to lose it.

 

[Nervous Rex]

It's funny how the guilt just really screws with your head.

I have a lot of memories that immediately bring feelings of guilt or remorse. A. Lot. Of. Memories. They come up at random times. For some memories, I reflexively think, "I'm sorry", or something to that effect. When I am consciously monitoring and directing my thoughts, I can change my reaction to something healthier like, "I've learned from that" or "I'll do better next time."

 

[Aspychata]

Guilt rumination is like a whole separate forum in itself. Parent's guilt, friend guilt, on and on. We can easily trip on that one. Probably rumination is about 75% guilt stuff. But if anybody has statistics- bring it on.

 

[Jumpback]

I am not a nurse, but the tolerance level becomes higher with chronic abuse. We were warned that some people have been drinking so long and can put away a huge amount of liquor but not appear drunk. So l don't know his drinking patterns. One time - l did tell the veteran that was his last for the nite. I am pretty sure he complained. It's a gray area. We are subjectively making a decision. I sold liquor to one guy who fell down the minute he left the store. I did call the cabbie later to ask if he made it in to his apartment since a cab picked him up. It's not a bar situation, plenty people show up drunk at the store, so you have to refuse service.

He was speaking coherently. He might have been weak from not eating, because sometimes all he had was one meal for the day depending on his money. Alcohol was more important then food to him l believe. But l worked p/t So l don't know what he had the day before. We do our best to stay on top. Because liquor licenses are about 500,000 dollars in this state, you don't want your boss to lose it.

Alcohol is dangerous because it's legal and helps with some things. Like it helps people go to bars and talk to the opposite sex and make fools of themselves on the dance floor.

I'm guessing a lot of the people you came across were self medicating, probably others were kind of thrill seekers who felt like life was more fun when drinking

 

[Aspychata]

Some people medicate daily. I had several ladies who drank because they were stuck in marriages they couldn't leave due to their age and economics. They felt they wouldn't survive if on their own. That's pretty bad.