Whats normal about eye contact n the animal kingdom?

[The Midge]

I was reading up on this as eye contact between dogs usually means rouble. I have to make sure mine avoids eye contact with certain dogs,

Wikipedia said this on an article about eye contact:

Eye contact can also be a significant factor in interactions between non-human animals, and between humans and non-human animals.

Animals of many species, including dogs, often perceive eye contact as a threat. Many programs to prevent dog bites recommend avoiding direct eye contact with an unknown dog.[25] According to a report in The New Zealand Medical Journal,[26] maintaining eye contact is one reason young children may be more likely to fall victim to dog attacks.

Similarly, hikers are commonly advised to avoid direct eye contact if they have surprised a bear, since the bear may interpret the eye contact as a threat,[27] although some sources suggest maintaining eye contact.[28] Likewise, chimpanzees use eye contact to signal aggression in hostile encounters, and staring at them in a zoo can induce agitated behavior.[25]

On the other hand, extended eye contact between a dog and its owner modulates the secretion of oxytocin, a neuromodulator that is known for its role in maternal-infant bonding.[29]

So it would appear that those on the spectrum have normal eye contact as far as most animals go and the NT thing is abnormal. Even for our closest relatives the chimp.

So, please excuse me if I feel uncomfortable or threatened if you maintain eye contact. It ain't normal.

 

[Gritches]

Haha, good point It really isn't normal as far as mammalian critters go, but as I'll explain below our (humans') sophisticated brains allow for more complex processing of the facial expressions and body language of others, which basically amounts to "we don't need to throw our poop for others of our species to know that we're angry". But since such complex processing often results in things like the verbal alternative to poop-throwing and chest-thumping, it's really not that useful as a tool and doesn't provide much advantage over how other mammals do eye contact. So yes and double-yes, I agree, human eye contact is a total outlier in the world of eye contact as it applies to large mammal and primate species, and I ain't doing it unless I have to.

Anecdotally, did you know that in some Native American cultures, making any eye contact at all is considered a sign of hostility and disrespect and that it's been part of their social customs to avoid eye contact since ancient times and up to this very day? I only know this because I once lived next to a reservation where this was true, both for the practicing traditionalist and the common street hood alike, and teachers and other school staff were instructed not to demand the Native American kids to "look me in the eye while I'm talking to you" for this very reason.

If I understand correctly, human eye contact is more for its social bonding aspects and primarily for assessing danger, which is hilarious because NTs are terrible at correctly assessing danger and because actually reading the emotion-states of others only supplies partial information (such as that there is "something amiss" due to the presence of a negative emotion-state), necessitating follow-up investigation i.e. "what's wrong, Billy?"; whereas skipping the reading and logically deducing what, if anything, is wrong in any given situation is faster, more accurate, and doesn't rely on playing further social games for the information to make a proper judgment about whether or not danger is present and, if so, of what kind.

So that's why I don't understand the appeal of eye contact, though I suspect it probably has more to do with the social and group bonding that occurs precisely because of the inefficiency spawned by using such a system to assess danger, which itself I find vexing and a little barfy.

More helpfully, there's a saying/rule I stick to regarding duration; apparently, six seconds of direct, unbroken eye contact means you two are either about to "fight or f(make love)", which I interpret to mean that six seconds is a violation of unwritten social convention, typically.

Then again, breaking off and re-establishing eye contact too often looks nervous and jumpy. So I aim for 3-4 seconds, which reliable feedback has told me is very lifelike and realistic. Also, breaking and looking down and to the left signals "deception" to the NT while breaking down and to the right signals that you are remembering. These things matter, especially if you're dead-set on keeping yourself safe when speaking to a NT whose opinion of you has some consequence on your survival or well-being, which of course is my bar for whether or not I'll bother with eye contact.

Well, I just spent a large and unknown amount of time vomiting the contents of my brain all over the reply box. Sorry it's so wordy, but screw it I typed this all I'm posting it. Great observation, I'll be thinking about this one all day

 

[Streetwise]

I was reading up on this as eye contact between dogs usually means rouble. I have to make sure mine avoids eye contact with certain dogs,

Wikipedia said tis on an article about eye contact:

So it would appear that those on the spectrum have normal eye contact as far as most animals go and the NT thing is abnormal. Even for our closest relatives the chimp.

So, please excuse me if I feel uncomfortable or threatened if you maintain eye contact. It ain't normal.

not exactly it depends on whether the animal is sensitised to being prey to another animal .The dodo died because it was not sensitised to something wanting to kill it and that is why it died

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

But since such complex processing often results in things like the verbal alternative to poop-throwing

I've always been a man who likes to stick to the old ways of doing things

 

[Floki]

Hmm I was think about this very topic today. I was wondering why I can stare at my dog in the eyes but not a human. Also I feel more comfortable around my dog than I do other humans. That includes family and friends.

 

[Gracey]

I have a young pup and part of his positive social experiences I take him to a Kennel Club registered Puppy Foundation Class where he can experience being around others of his own kind in a friendly, structured way whilst learning some basic behaviour skills.

One of the rules of attendance is that the pups aren't allowed to eyeball each other during the class due to the very concept that direct eye contact is a threat/challenging in the dog world.

While us humans have evolved as the dominant species on the planet (opposable thumbs and probably direct eye contact !) I'm much more comfortable with the old-school, animal kingdom way of doing things.