What is a religion?

[tree]

@kay

"You never know what you will get from Sunday to Sunday...."

That's for sure.

Definitely a YMMV experience.

 

[Potterprincess]

i dont want to cause any arguements as i went to a church of england primary school so attended church for events like remberance day, christmas, harvest festival etc and was in the church/ school quior and once i got into high school we said the lords prayer at the end of asembley sung hymns and read the bible every day (well i tried to but with my dyslexia its hard).

i now volunteer with a girl guide group which is set in a church hall every week. But my honest opinion on God and religion as im not religious i cant stand it is i accept other peoples veiws on what they believe in.

i dont believe there is a god when we die thats it we are dead possibly burried in the dirt been eaten by bugs i dont believe there is a heaven or a hell and that we must believe and do what god wants and all that other brain washing rubbish.

ALSO IF GOD EXISTED WHY IS IT THAT ADULTS AND CHILDREN ARE BORN OR DEVELOP TERMINAL DESEASIES LIKE CANCER ? IF HE/SHE EXISTED CANCER WOULDNT .

The one thing i do believe is that when we die our spirit carries on living in its own world and comes to visit us and that our bodies we have and developed through our lives is just a shell that keeps the spirit safe until we die. We have also been put on this earth to live and then die all our lives are numbered and when our time is up thats that nobody lives forever.

 

[Propianotuner]

Of course it isn't guaranteed. But what does "responsible" and "sensible" mean to you in this context? Responsible and sensible towards whom?

Responsible for people in general, and sensible about possible consequences.

Groups always act out of self-interest; that's the whole point of people joining forces. Also, more often than not, those groups are the pillars of human society.

Pillars supporting what, eh? What's happening on the shoulders of society?

You asked about the "sects" and "doctrine" of atheists. Well, it was all quite silly but here is how it was. I'll start with "doctrine". I'll keep it brief, it could go into pages of detail though I really can't remember everything anymore.

Given your experiences, would you still say you're interested in forming some similar kind of group with other people who are not only atheist or agnostic but also happen to be friendly and agreeable?

Wait, I had something for this...
Yeah...
No, it's gone.
(Opportunity lost)
(Obscure "Archer" reference)
I'm going to warn you, in advance, that I intend to rebut this. Just can't find ANY damn time.
I'm COMING for you! LOL.

... It's too bad that hasn't materialized yet because I honestly have been looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts on the matter.

 

[GrownupGirl]

Religion is what is used to explain the things humans have always wondered about that are inexplicable: What happens when we die? Why do bad things happen? Why do we exist? (other than the fact that we were born and live on a planet that is able to support life) When people can't find or find it too difficult to the true or accurate answers to things they tend to just make stuff up.

 

[Streetwise]

Religion is what is used to explain the things humans have always wondered about that are inexplicable: What happens when we die? Why do bad things happen? Why do we exist? (other than the fact that we were born and live on a planet that is able to support life) When people can't find or find it too difficult to the true or accurate answers to things they tend to just make stuff up.

One version is people don't say there is no God this say no !!!!!!!!to God.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

The short answer is that it's a cult that has outlived the death of its founder.

That having been said, I consider this current authoritarian PC/SJW crap to be a religion too.

I'd like it to be legally defined as such so it can be purged from our college campuses.

 

[I love roses]

Let me be clear to start with: I am in no way about to suggest that atheism is itself a religion. Atheism is one among a handful of stances on a particular philosophical question, and being an atheist doesn't preclude any one person from subscribing to a whole range of stances on other philosophical questions.

I'd like to propose a few criteria for recognizing something as a religion, criteria which I've selected specifically for their explanatory power, i.e. their ability to effectively explain things we observe in the world, namely how people come together to share in particular worldviews, how they identify with the group, and how it has a societal impact. It can be countered, for example, that one could identify as a Christian or Muslim but not participate in religious activities with others, but it remains that the religion is there in the first place for one to identify with because of the sociological vehicle.

Given that, a religion is a social phenomenon in which:

-There are multiple adherents who gather together for the express purpose of sharing in the religion.
-There are standard, accepted texts, which define the beliefs which adherents subscribe to. Within a religion there may not be unanimity on how to understand the texts, and what all are the accepted and possibly rejected texts, but this is enough of a universal phenomenon to warrant inclusion as a criterion.
-The beliefs associated with a religion must encompass enough general philosophical questions, mostly of the metaphysical and especially the ethical variety, to constitute an overall worldview.
-It must be sufficiently organized and answer enough worldview related questions in order for the adherents themselves to deem it appropriate to identify with the religion, calling themselves 'Christians', 'Hindus', 'Punjabs', or whatever else.

What are the implications here? I'm more than a little certain this kind of definition for religion implies that those of us who are enculturated to think of the issue from a westernized perspective need to broaden our horizons in order to grasp all of what's going on. English speaking discussions in which atheism is considered to preclude religion are virtually omnipresent and thinking that way really isn't helpful for anyone who might like to establish a deeper familiarity with, for example, Buddhism.

You see, Buddhism was, from its outset, an atheistic religion. Siddhartha Gautama, aka The Buddha, lived in an environment in which he was exposed to Hindu thinking, reading and hearing about the Puranas (secondary philosophical dialogues which defined sects of Hinduism, some in favor of monism and even monotheism, others in favor of polytheism, and yet others actually in favor of atheism and materialism, see Carvaka Hinduism) and Upanishads (the primary religious texts which the Puranas drew upon as source material, written in the form of poetry, the telling of religious epics, and instructions for carrying out rituals), and spending time learning from Indian ascetics who were the protozoic nucleus that would later develop into a religion we now recognize as Jainism. Unlike the ancient religious environment further west, the idea of atheism wasn't nearly as unfamiliar, so Gautama formed a religion in which there was indeed a principle aspect behind existence, but he redefined Brahman in a purely atheistic sense and didn't deify himself or other Buddhas.

This is really the tip of the iceberg on the subject. I brought up Buddhism in particular because further discussion on its history and development could serve as good source material for talks about people throughout history engaging in religious behavior without theistic beliefs, how Buddhism has been synthesized with some theistic religions in East Asia and in some cases has either adopted theistic thought or redefined local deities and superstitions as Boddhisattvas. A Boddhisattva is a particular kind of Buddha/sagely-person who is capable of escaping the reincarnation cycle but makes the self sacrifical choice not to enter Nirvana in order to return periodically and help guide others to Nirvana.

Buddha decided to deny God unless proven, that other religions used fantasy to explain a God existance and to manipulate societies. However there is beginning to be some Buddhist Eastern infusion into Western thought in Catholicism and Anglican through Thomas Merton who was a Trappist Monk. He went and lived with and studied with Buddhist Monks and wrote books about his experience.

Another interesting study is the study of the Cradle of Civilization in the land of Ur near Saudi/Northern Africa concerning the God “El” which seemed to have evolved and morphed into the Biblical God which in Hebrew and prehebrew Sanskrit and Aramaic languages is tied to names for God or angels in the Old Testament ,Eloheim, Elijah, Shaddai, Raphael, Gabriel, etc. Also, Ur is mentioned as well has pre Hebrew nation era in reference to Jethro. Father of Moses. Jethro is mentioned as coming from the land of Ur, from Midian near modern Iraq. There are many ancient non-Biblical writings about Ur that are interesting and considered pagan. I’m amazed at similarities between Buddhism and Christianity in the “Mystery Religions”. Reference Bible Genesis 15:7.

Even thought Buddhism is atheistic, they have jin which are like little Satanic angels that use trickery, harrassment, torture that make a person strive for a higher reincarnation. I guess every religion needs a devil to scare people straight. Voodoo has a trickster diety as well. Sufism is the Islam mystery component but Inhaven read up much on that one.

There is a collective evolution of common thought in all the major world religions.

 

[I love roses]

Some people turn a sport into their religion, others Star Wars.

Religion is weird, really. All these people getting together, that's the worst part of most religions. The constant need for gathering. The reason I merely lean toward Quakerism and haven't seriously pursued it. I mostly agree with it in a secular pantheistic sorta way, but I have no interest in attaching myself to a group in a religious way.

Interesting that you mention atheism. I was in an atheist Meetup for about three years and found that the members would gravitate towards "doctrines". There were approved blogs and books. Certain "sects" seemed to form and tried to enforce their version of atheism. Eventually one guy announced the need to "clean house". Well, that sent an exodus from that group and a new atheist group formed (I never really got involved in that one). That group, about three years
later, is now "cleaning house" so to speak. Atheism can get awfully religious sometimes.

I will say I like the food that religious groups tend to offer. Donuts and casseroles. I was at my husband's church (UU) recently and offered all sorts of food left over from their Friday night dinner group.

Interesting info and thoughts on Buddhism. I have had a bit of interest in knowing more about it, not interested in being a Buddhist, but still have wanted to know more. But there are so many versions. The tiny city I live in recently gained a Buddhist temple but I feel like I would be rude and intrusive to go check it out since I am merely curious.

You should go to Dallas to the Buddhist temple. They welcome people to stay there and will teach you. The place is beautiful, never been there but you can take a google reality tour and read about them. .i hear the vegetarian food is awesome. Forget its name but it is the only palace/community with free cafe’, donations accepted.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

Another interesting study is the study of the Cradle of Civilization in the land of Ur near Saudi/Northern Africa concerning the God “El” which seemed to have evolved and morphed into the Biblical God which in Hebrew and prehebrew Sanskrit and Aramaic languages is tied to names for God or angels in the Old Testament ,Eloheim, Elijah, Shaddai, Raphael, Gabriel, etc. Also, Ur is mentioned as well has pre Hebrew nation era in reference to Jethro. Jethro is mentioned as coming from the land of Ur.

It sounds like what you're referring to comes from the Ugaritic texts discovered in Syria in the 1930's. Among them was the core of the Canaanite mythology which had the same cast of characters as the OT. The chief god was El and his wife Asherah, they had 70 children who were also gods and they were collectively known as the Elohim. In addition to the names you mentioned there was Ba'al, Beelzebub and a few others. What was also found was the complete Book of Psalms VERBATUM with the Hebrew version. Since the Israelites were the idiot nomadic cousins of the Canaanites, who got their language, culture and religion from their more powerful, civilized relatives, it makes a good case for the origins of Judaism.

 

[I love roses]

Seems so, and the reference to God the creator in Hebrew in Genesis means more than one and in some places says “Us” but denies multiple Gods and evolves into the trinity concept even in the Old Teatament but is not outright stated in the text but is there nevertheless. Jesus is the Angel of God or Son of Man in the Meshack, Shadeack, Ibednego story.
Holy Spirit appears in the Holy of Holies and also is the fire that consumes the Sacrifice, and the Father is referred to repeatedly yet are all a single entity metaphysically. The Bible doesn’t seem to be a completely literal book but rather allegory maybe including real people and sometimes not that tells a spiritual truth about the relation between man and God and how they relate. Jesus is who bakes the cake for Elijah when he is in dispare, etc.

 

[I love roses]

It sounds like what you're referring to comes from the Ugaritic texts discovered in Syria in the 1930's. Among them was the core of the Canaanite mythology which had the same cast of characters as the OT. The chief god was El and his wife Asherah, they had 70 children who were also gods and they were collectively known as the Elohim. In addition to the names you mentioned there was Ba'al, Beelzebub and a few others. What was also found was the complete Book of Psalms VERBATUM with the Hebrew version. Since the Israelites were the idiot nomadic cousins of the Canaanites, who got their language, culture and religion from their more powerful, civilized relatives, it makes a good case for the origins of Judaism.

There are a lot of cultural overlaps in the stories. Syrians worshipped a woman of a mountain. In the gospels Jesus ministers to a Samaritan woman who refers to her people worshipping at a certain mountain. This woman evolved into the Christian Mary or they were proselytizes into accepting Mary based on prior belief. Not sure what came first, then chicken or the egg. There are little clues all in the Bible that allude to these earlier beliefs. I still believe the Bible account as I was raised in it. Seems prayers are answers and in unexplainable ways. i was raised to believe it literally. One day the story of the parting of the Red Sea began to sound like a chinese mythological tale. It frightened me because I was taught never to doubt. For several years I was in spiritual pain. But I didn’t worry about it too much. I said, God won’t leave me like this. So I studied Catholicism four years searching for truth and I found falsifications of St. Helena, Constantine’s mother and began to see the political aspect of it. But I still have faith. Suddenly The mystery and symbols began to be revealed in the text with their spiritual meanings. Land represents living in righteousness and truth. The sea is sin and worldliness. The Israelites fled sin on dry land because God parted it. They didn’t avoid temptation of sin, they walked right through the middle of sin ( the walls of water on both sides ) but did not commit sin as those who sin are destroyed of their own choices. So I still believe. The spiritual truth is all still intact. Did Jesus really come down in human form? I’m not going to over analyze. I only know personally that God relates to me in my personal life and I do not deny that. Catholic religion has great history books on a lot of this, they don’t deny it. But they exploit their power politically in my opponion. I don’t like what they did in the Rawanda genocide for a modern example. I don’t knock Catholics personally. I have a Catholic priest as a spiritual director even though I’m not Catholic. But I know too much to submit to them. They want unusual things, your mother maiden name, names of family members and ex spouses. it sounds like to control. So I won’t go along with it. So I attend somewhere else. Any comments, Pappy?

 

[I love roses]

To claify though. I’m not dogging the Catholic religion. I practice some of their meditations and such. There is corruption in all the denominations because people are not perfect. I simply for now submit to a church of another kind as best as I can in its imperfection.

 

[I love roses]

It isn’t unusual to find the Psalms or other books hidden and scattered about the world in ancient times, ie. Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls intact. People passed these things around and hid and preserved them as they formed and attached or detached into groups and as political forces rose and fell. Other times they were used educationally and multiple copies passed around. I have the papyri numbers to masoritic texts, coptic texts, and many others.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

I don’t knock Catholics personally. I have a Catholic priest as a spiritual director even though I’m not Catholic. But I know too much to submit to them. They want unusual things, your mother maiden name, names of family members and ex spouses. it sounds like to control. So I won’t go along with it. So I attend somewhere else. Any comments, Pappy?

After having read that, It sounds like you've reached many of the same conclusions as Dr. Jordan Peterson. He takes a Jungian psychoanalysis approach to the Bible and all mythology.

As an atheist, I think he's on the right track, the Bible was never meant to be taken literally, it's a different type of truth, it's archetypical, metaphorical, cultural and spiritual.

If you haven't watched his Biblical lectures on youtube, I'd highly recommend them. He talks about the hidden meanings behind all the major biblical stories in such a manner that even an atheist as myself can understand.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

It isn’t unusual to find the Psalms or other books hidden and scattered about the world in ancient times, ie. Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls intact. People passed these things around and hid and preserved them as they formed and attached or detached into groups and as political forces rose and fell. Other times they were used educationally and multiple copies passed around. I have the papyri numbers to masoritic texts, coptic texts, and many others.

Yes, the reason behind that is the general collapse of late Bronze Age Mediterranean civilization. In a couple of decades, centering roughly around the year 1177BC, every major civilization in the Mediterranean collapsed except the Egyptians.

 

[I love roses]

I’ll have to check him out. Although, I am not atheist. I believe because I had some timely miracles. I don’t have to understand a written account of a Creator to have a relationship. Something rescues me in bizzare ways in extreme duress or time of need. Following the book for my life seems to be honored. But this lack of proof is great because it removes the need to be divided from people and whatever they believe. I believe even if a muslim believes to the best of his ability and feels he is honoring God as he chops off my head that perhaps in his lack of understanding he is still graced unto a salvation because he was trying to be obedient. King David was a murderer. My life is such that if
i was driving down a freeway and my gas tank fell off, there would be a man at the end of an an exit ramp as I coast off with tools and a new gas tank. My answers to prayers have been that timely in some instances and just about as bizzare. Space doesn’t allow for all the stories and probabaly no one wants to hear them.

 

[I love roses]

And every civilization is going to continue to collapse because man can’t stop being greedy, especially the ones at the top. It’s all the same. That is why the book is true. No new thing under the sun.

 

[I love roses]

they had 70 children who were

70 represents something. The repetitions in the Bible and their consistency is something. I think in the ancient days everyone must have known more easily what all the symbolic language meant.

 

[I love roses]

Yes, the reason behind that is the general collapse of late Bronze Age Mediterranean civilization. In a couple of decades, centering roughly around the year 1177BC, every major civilization in the Mediterranean collapsed except the Egyptians.

At some point the Egyptians wiped out a lot of groups. There was a documentary where a God was carved on a mountain. Then their God replaced either over it or beside it or something such as to force people to give up their origional God and accept the one of the new ruler. Every time this happens they destroy all evidence of the old God.

 

[I love roses]

It sounds like what you're referring to comes from the Ugaritic texts discovered in Syria in the 1930's. Among them was the core of the Canaanite mythology which had the same cast of characters as the OT. The chief god was El and his wife Asherah, they had 70 children who were also gods and they were collectively known as the Elohim. In addition to the names you mentioned there was Ba'al, Beelzebub and a few others. What was also found was the complete Book of Psalms VERBATUM with the Hebrew version. Since the Israelites were the idiot nomadic cousins of the Canaanites, who got their language, culture and religion from their more powerful, civilized relatives, it makes a good case for the origins of Judaism.

Yes, they came out of basically, Iraq. So they were related to jews before Abraham got with his housemaid Hagar. Sounds like a family feud. But in the Biblical account, God says he chose the Jews specifically for their inferiority or weaknesses so God’s power could be more greatly exhibited through them as a vehicle or manifestation of His power. The creator seems to play them off each other depending which one is in the worst sin and rebellion. The two nations are relatives that God teaches and guides sometimes even using jealousy between the two to bring about a positive result.