What Happens to Kids Who Are "External"?

[Amy Stone]

I've been studying up on Asperger's (being newly self-diagnosed) and I read where Aspies can either be "external" or "internal". My son and I both are internal in that we go inside ourselves to process information, we recreate a world that makes sense to us.

However, I have an estranged 15yo that exhibits "external" Asperger's, possibly cormorbid with bipolar and maybe even narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). She usually masks well in school, but comes home and has the opposite disposition. Like Jekyll and Hyde. She can be mean, violent even. Has a "god" complex. Thinks everyone else is wrong. Has no respect for authority because of this. Has problems making friends. Lacks empathy. There is more, but suffice to say she fits the description to a "T".

I have known something was wrong for a long time but she refused to go to a therapist and now she has left home to live with her dad and wants no contact with me. I feel like I failed her in not diagnosing sooner, but I know that I did all I could given my knowledge at the time. I have made her aware she could have Asperger's, which really ticked her off and I knew it would, but I wanted to plant the seed in the off-chance she reads up on it and it leads her to therapy.

My question is to anyone who is external or has a kid that is external: how did things turn out for you? Honestly.

 

[tree]

"Externalizing behaviors that are commonly noted among individuals with an ASD include, among others, verbal or physical aggression, conduct problems such as rule breaking, and behaviors associated with hyperactivity such as interrupting others and disrupting activities (Reynolds & Kamphaus, 2004)."

"In contrast to externalizing behaviors that are more easily quantified, internalizing behaviors, which are be characterized by withdrawal, depression and anxiety are internal and more difficult to observe."
Socialization functioning predicts externalizing problem behaviors in Autism Spectrum Disorder

Is this what you mean by "external"?

 

[Amy Stone]

@tree Yes. Correct.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

Eh don't feel too bad about the 15 year old. Fifteen is the worst year of most people's lives. It's the peak of puberty where kids think no one understands them and they hate everyone and throw massive tantrums. Just be patient and hold out for sweet sixteen. Trust me on this one.

 

[VernalSole1355]

I don't have a kid who is external and I'm personally more internal, but my ex-girlfriend was external so I'll give my experience with her.

She would NEVER act out when she was with me, or my family. We only had a couple incidents with her and those were minor things. She never hit me, never said anything negative about me, nothing.

Her home life was a 180. She always threw tantrums, always was hitting people (mother & siblings included), no respect of authority, especially at the beginning of our relationship. As we stayed together longer, she started to shift from external issues to internal issues with the occasional external flair-up. I was a stabilizer to her, because quite honestly, I was one of her only sources of support. (Her mother was extremely strict, and her brother could've cared less, only inside support she has was her younger sister).

I met her at 15, we broke up at 17. I haven't heard how she's handling the breakup, but even though we had our issues between ourselves, her external behavior improved drastically.

So while I can't necessarily say it was age that did it, I can tell you that us being there for support did help. I believe that you did everything you could to support her. If she didn't want to see a therapist, that's her choice. I used to blame everything on everything but me, but I've had the revelation that part of the problem is me, and that I need to stop saying "I can't", and replace it with "I'm struggling with". I'm sure she will come to that realization to.

Don't beat yourself up over her leaving. I will repeat this, you did everything in your own power to help her, and she, whether she meant to or not, turned it away. I'm only 18, but I have seen some of these things happen firsthand, to myself and to my friends. I've been blessed that I haven't had a sheltered life, been able to see the world for what it is.

You win some battles, you lose some battles. Best thing you can do now is regroup, get yourself stable, and prepare yourself for the next opportunity to help her, or someone else. Use the experience you've had to help someone else if you can. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[ForestGumpett]

I don't have a kid who is external and I'm personally more internal, but my ex-girlfriend was external so I'll give my experience with her.

She would NEVER act out when she was with me, or my family. We only had a couple incidents with her and those were minor things. She never hit me, never said anything negative about me, nothing.

Her home life was a 180. She always threw tantrums, always was hitting people (mother & siblings included), no respect of authority, especially at the beginning of our relationship. As we stayed together longer, she started to shift from external issues to internal issues with the occasional external flair-up. I was a stabilizer to her, because quite honestly, I was one of her only sources of support. (Her mother was extremely strict, and her brother could've cared less, only inside support she has was her younger sister).

I met her at 15, we broke up at 17. I haven't heard how she's handling the breakup, but even though we had our issues between ourselves, her external behavior improved drastically.

So while I can't necessarily say it was age that did it, I can tell you that us being there for support did help. I believe that you did everything you could to support her. If she didn't want to see a therapist, that's her choice. I used to blame everything on everything but me, but I've had the revelation that part of the problem is me, and that I need to stop saying "I can't", and replace it with "I'm struggling with". I'm sure she will come to that realization to.

Don't beat yourself up over her leaving. I will repeat this, you did everything in your own power to help her, and she, whether she meant to or not, turned it away. I'm only 18, but I have seen some of these things happen firsthand, to myself and to my friends. I've been blessed that I haven't had a sheltered life, been able to see the world for what it is.

You win some battles, you lose some battles. Best thing you can do now is regroup, get yourself stable, and prepare yourself for the next opportunity to help her, or someone else. Use the experience you've had to help someone else if you can. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Respectively, I’m blown away that your only 18. I’m not known many adults that were as mature as some of the things you have said, I sure wasn’t. You rock!

 

[Thinx]

The terms are often used to describe differences between male and female behaviours, the norm having been that males are socialised to externalise and act out, hence more males in fights or in prison, whilst females are/were socialised to internalise worries or distress, hence more women in therapy and mental health facilities.

Arguably this historically could explain the way autism was seen as more of a male issue, whilst non typical males who internalised, and women, went unseen. I wouldn't have thought externalising is worse than internalising, just different.

It's unfortunately not uncommon for young people to feel they can't hold a balance between two parents who have split up, and to end up opting to reject one parent, in their teens, commonly the parent they were living with. Sorry this has happened, it's tough for you, and for her too.

 

[PastelPetals]

I was/am an externalizer due to not recognizing my feelings till they boil over or even knowing how to label my feelings. I am working on that but I didn't learn at all till 15. I was mostly just punished by the school system because by the age of 9 or so the environment beat me and my behaviour were seen as abnormal for my age.

She might not want another label especially as as the other labels you mentioned also have quite the stigma. The way you talked made it seem as if she has no official diagnosis and while that is ok I understand if she is less receptive as she sees you as biased. 15 is just a hard age and one of two things will happen: she will grow up mature and move on or she will end up getting help because she ends up hitting rock bottom.

I get that's not what you want but maybe you need to examine your relationship with her and consider maybe your communication styles don't match up. All I know about you from this post is that you recently discovered you might be an aspie and think the same for your kids but I have no idea what your relationship is like. Why does she not like authority? What does she do when stressed? Does it seem to come out of nowhere even if you know she is having problems before she explodes? I don't think you are a bad parent but I was similar to your daughter. The reason I could not deal with authority was due to both me seeing the world differently (in my head everyone is equal) and being deeping traumatized by the school system and a world that lacked understanding. I was compared to Jekyll and Hyde when I was simply expressing my emotions differently (see first sentence) I was suspected to have BPD even after I was diagnosed autistic but once I got the right therapy it was clear to see that I was having just as much trouble even after not meeting criteria due to using those behaviors to cope but were not the core issue.

You daughter might be very sensitive and does not want to talk to somebody accusing her of dealing with things so drenched in stigma. I would have a g0d complex like situation when I got too stressed as a way of feeling any control, is it no empathy or is she just expressing it differently. If she is estranged there is really nothing you can do if you keep pushing she will cling tighter to her beliefs. I am sorry I tried to word this nicely but words like NPD and bipolar and even autism are worlds being thrown around you need to look deeply into this stuff it could be NPD but also anything cluster B or ODD or autism with a ton of anxiety etc. Everything is transactional she affects you and you know it does but do you know how you affect her? (also I recommend DBT that therapy honestly saved my life it's not the perfect fit but it's the best i've found.

again I am sorry if this sounds harsh I think the casual narcissist reference made me a bit upset. I am sure you love your kid but problem solving does not come in labels it comes in compassion and respect. She is living with a parent and from the limited amount I know she is not in danger give her some time to cool off.

 

[watersprite]

I've been studying up on Asperger's (being newly self-diagnosed) and I read where Aspies can either be "external" or "internal". My son and I both are internal in that we go inside ourselves to process information, we recreate a world that makes sense to us.

However, I have an estranged 15yo that exhibits "external" Asperger's, possibly cormorbid with bipolar and maybe even narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). She usually masks well in school, but comes home and has the opposite disposition. Like Jekyll and Hyde. She can be mean, violent even. Has a "god" complex. Thinks everyone else is wrong. Has no respect for authority because of this. Has problems making friends. Lacks empathy. There is more, but suffice to say she fits the description to a "T".

I have known something was wrong for a long time but she refused to go to a therapist and now she has left home to live with her dad and wants no contact with me. I feel like I failed her in not diagnosing sooner, but I know that I did all I could given my knowledge at the time. I have made her aware she could have Asperger's, which really ticked her off and I knew it would, but I wanted to plant the seed in the off-chance she reads up on it and it leads her to therapy.

My question is to anyone who is external or has a kid that is external: how did things turn out for you? Honestly.

I’d be happy to chat with you about this, but privately.

 

[Judge]

I'd think those who externalize live even more traumatic lives. Deduced down to perpetually being "the bug or the windshield" and possibly accruing a criminal record.

 

[Amy Stone]

@PastelPetals Thank you for your personal account. That does help! I am not sure where everything went wrong, she has acted out all her life, but my attempts at getting her help did not work. She was very much against it. You didn't sound harsh at all. The labels, as they are, are to help understand what is going on and the appropriate response. I am not sure why you would be upset over NPD (no two people are alike and you are not her), but her personality and actions do fit according to the DSM-V. Unfortunately, I will not know unless she chooses to go to a therapist and opens up to me.

@watersprite feel free to send me a DM if you wish

 

[PastelPetals]

@PastelPetals Thank you for your personal account. That does help! I am not sure where everything went wrong, she has acted out all her life, but my attempts at getting her help did not work. She was very much against it. You didn't sound harsh at all. The labels, as they are, are to help understand what is going on and the appropriate response. I am not sure why you would be upset over NPD (no two people are alike and you are not her), but her personality and actions do fit according to the DSM-V. Unfortunately, I will not know unless she chooses to go to a therapist and opens up to me.

@watersprite feel free to send me a DM if you wish

NPD labeling just sketches me out due to me hearing every parter, mother, grandfather...well everyone say that their mentally ill relative or partner had NPD or BPD. You may be right for all I know but NPD symptoms fit other disorders as well. I guess I was just worried you had jumped all the way to "how do I fix my kid with a personality disorder" when you had no diagnosis or paths to treatment. Based on your response it does not seem that way so I apologise for my rushed judgement.

I know for me my parents felt very guilty I came into the world loud and stayed that way (my pediatrician was concerned I cried as loud as I did) and my parents felt bad for not being able to understand or help. I am sure you are doing your best and so is she and I know you just want the best for her. If she decides to resume contact and agrees to be evaluated push more for autism first than other things as she will be treated better.

I was diagnosed at 14 despite fitting all criteria for autism and it being brought up since I was a toddler. Sadly I am both a girl and of course externalizing. The more I was labeled with behavioural issues the worse I was hurt. I might have bipolar I might have ODD who knows and thankfully it was determined that it not really worth it to know (I agree) by my neuropsych. I don't have manic episodes due to proper meds and I don't have oppositional behaviors when I feel safe in an environment. 15 was rough for me but thankfully I was able to find a good treatment program that year that helped a ton and I am doing better. I guess my reactions are just due to baggage so I am sorry for hoisting that baggage on you as well. Just to note autism can cause a seemingly inflated ego due to being misunderstood and your brain just deciding it easier to think your above all of it.

 

[Amy Stone]

@PastelPetals That is so kind of you for sharing your story and perspective. That is what I was hoping to get. This really does help. I am sure my kid feels the same as you, that I am trying to "fix" her with a diagnosis. I of course am not and instead, I am trying to find the best approach and guidance for her. But after reading your account, you made me realize that we are miscommunicating on this. Plus with me having Asperger's, I am sure I am not being clear. Thank you again for your response. Really. It did help tremendously.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I've been studying up on Asperger's (being newly self-diagnosed) and I read where Aspies can either be "external" or "internal". My son and I both are internal in that we go inside ourselves to process information, we recreate a world that makes sense to us.

However, I have an estranged 15yo that exhibits "external" Asperger's, possibly cormorbid with bipolar and maybe even narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). She usually masks well in school, but comes home and has the opposite disposition. Like Jekyll and Hyde. She can be mean, violent even. Has a "god" complex. Thinks everyone else is wrong. Has no respect for authority because of this. Has problems making friends. Lacks empathy. There is more, but suffice to say she fits the description to a "T".

I have known something was wrong for a long time but she refused to go to a therapist and now she has left home to live with her dad and wants no contact with me. I feel like I failed her in not diagnosing sooner, but I know that I did all I could given my knowledge at the time. I have made her aware she could have Asperger's, which really ticked her off and I knew it would, but I wanted to plant the seed in the off-chance she reads up on it and it leads her to therapy.

My question is to anyone who is external or has a kid that is external: how did things turn out for you? Honestly.

Dr. Tony Attwood basically characterizes the so-called "externalizing" or "outgoing" Aspie as "socially clumsy". (1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be social. (2) Teenagers, in general, because they do not have enough life experience,...tend to see things as "black and white", "right and wrong",...missing the importance of nuance, exceptions, and those "grey areas". (3) Because of their lack of life experience, mistake making, knowledge, etc., teens also tend to be victims of the Dunning-Kruger effect,...enough knowledge to think they are experts, but not enough to realize they could be wrong. (4) There is nothing wrong with coming off as confident in yourself,...as long as it isn't a narcissistic front/mask for deep seated, internal insecurities, fears, and anxieties. (5) The not fully recognizing the social construct of "authoritative positions" is likely an autism thing. Whether it be a parent, a physician, a teacher, a boss, the company president, whatever,...the social and professional hierarchy may not be recognized by the young autistic. Been there, done that. To me, they are just people, no better than me,...and it feels quite wrong, weird, awkward inside to call someone by their title. But it can also be professionally awkward for the other person, who may not understand why you interact with them as a friend within the context of a professional relationship.

Specifically, with autism, this combination above can be a set up for a lot of misunderstandings, communication difficulties, emotional frustration and anger, some really harsh comments, taking those mental leaps of misinterpretation and false conclusion, and will ultimately handicap any potential friendships, professional relationships, etc. I am speaking from personal experience here. I was one of those externalizing kids,...it wasn't until decades later, that the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, becoming a totally different person than what my parents knew of me. Being autistic, and not knowing you're autistic,...these things just end up being misinterpreted by others as "you're not a nice person". Being autistic, and not researching into autism, knowing the anatomy, physiology, and psychology,...well, that may lead to a lack of self-awareness, a lack of knowing one's self, not being comfortable with one's self, not knowing how to adapt and overcome, etc. If you don't understand your own autism, what it may lead to is this misinterpretation that "the world is against me", that "people don't like me",...when all of this is a sick and twisted little mind trick we tend to play on ourselves because we do not think and behave within the norms of the neurotypical world.

It has taken me over 50 years, and I am still learning.

 

[Telepath John]

However, I have an estranged 15yo that exhibits "external" Asperger's, possibly cormorbid with bipolar and maybe even narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). She usually masks well in school, but comes home and has the opposite disposition. Like Jekyll and Hyde. She can be mean, violent even. Has a "god" complex. Thinks everyone else is wrong. Has no respect for authority because of this. Has problems making friends. Lacks empathy. There is more, but suffice to say she fits the description to a "T".

I like those qualities she has. I can appreciate her frustrations and her unbalanced reactions to the way things are in her life. She knows that every human is an immortal spiritual being and that authorities only want to control and manipulate us. Which is why she has that 'god' complex and lack of respect for authorities. Some day all of our children will be as evolved as she is.

How best for you to deal with her is another question. I like to respect all ways of being and embrace the reality that human evolution is very slow. What is right for one is often wrong for another. The more compassion and respect we can have for one another, the easier our relationships with them will be. Hold fast to your truth about the way life works and also realizes that there are equally valid and different truths that exist. You are not required to like things which would be wrong for you. Just respect them.

I hope my thoughts on this will be helpful.

John

 

[Amy Stone]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. I was looking for some different perspectives and got them. I appreciate everyone taking the time to give their input. Much love!

 

[SDRSpark]

My first and only thought here is this: you say she masks well at school. She probably explodes at home BECAUSE she masks well at school. It takes a lot of effort to mask through the demands of a school day. All of that mental exertion means that by the time she gets home she's overwhelmed and exhausted. She not only can't mask anymore, but the overstimulation has pushed her to the brink of meltdown.

I was the same way when I was in school. Not so much now as an adult, but now I understand what's going on and I can make life choices (employment, etc) to minimize overstimulation and overwhelm - I didn't have that freedom as a teen, or even a young adult. I didn't have that freedom until I was able to make my own choices in life AND understand what my needs were. I was about 30 before I started to really figure it out.

 

[VernalSole1355]

My first and only thought here is this: you say she masks well at school. She probably explodes at home BECAUSE she masks well at school. It takes a lot of effort to mask through the demands of a school day. All of that mental exertion means that by the time she gets home she's overwhelmed and exhausted. She not only can't mask anymore, but the overstimulation has pushed her to the brink of meltdown.

For purposes of illustration:

Y'know when you go to reheat some food, say some soup, you have to leave an opening for the steam to get out? Well, school may be the "heating" process where the steam builds up, and then "home" may be the release.

I will say it's better to be able to release the pressure than have food stuck all over your microwave.

 

[ZebraAutismo]

Your daughter sounds similar to my brother,

 

[Fino]

Is she above average intelligence? To be above average in a public high-school is to feel like a genius in comparison to the hordes of morons inhabiting the school. She may have developed an ego by comparing herself to the lowest common denominator and thus have gotten a chip on her shoulder.