Unemployment Statistics

[Bellatrix]

Since first learning about Asperger's Syndrome about six years ago, I've often come across the claim that approximately 70 to 80 percent (the precise percentage varies, and it's often as high as 90) of people who are on the proverbial spectrum are either unemployed, or underemployed.

Could this actually be true? Does anyone know the source for this belief? I haven't been able to find any original research that has been able to substantiate this claim. Is it just another one of those 'urban myths'?

 

[Progster]

I don't think so, because it doesn't account for the 'high fuctioning' people who are on the spectrum, but are managing their life and so aren't registered with the services that collect those statistics, or who are self diagnosed, or who haven't been identified as being on the spectrum. A lot of older adults with AS who weren't diagnosed at an early age would fall in this category. Now, a lot more people are being identified as being on the spectrum, diagnosed and registered than before. But it is also probably true that most people with ASD have experienced difficulties with employment at some point in their life.

If you google this, it comes up with many different sources, all quoting different statistics. I think there are many organisations and researchers who conduct surveys and collect data on this, rather than one specific official source.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

It could be true, but I don't know if it is true. What's very true is that work is social, and interviewing, promotion, and disciplinary action are heavily dependent not on personal competencies per se but social competency: devotion to a goal more than self, and ability to leverage other people to unite for it.

I'll poke around for a bit, as this is in my professional purview. Good question.

 

[King_Oni]

The number has been floating around here and there and I've even heard that number being used by a temp agency a while ago when I inquire about actual job opportunities for "my brother" (heck, they don't have to know I'm looking around for myself), but they gave me that 75 to 80% number as well and thus "a slim chance" and my best bet was to look for support through the government, since they are not skilled to help people on the spectrum for work. And this was from one of the bigger temp agencies in my country.

Where they got their number, I don't know... and it makes one wonder if they carelessly throw around that number themselves. However, they might be talking from experience, as their database probably notes any peculiarities for individuals.

Now, the number might be that high because; it's not like they listed everyone on the spectrum worldwide. Nor is everyone, who might be on the spectrum (since diagnosing is not a mandatory process; nor does everyone "suffer" so they need help) but is employed listed.

On the other hand, even if you're speaking of 80 percent, it's still 8 in 10.. of 4 in 5... which IMO is too much. In an ideal world everyone should have a job they enjoy and that works for them. But alas, it's not an ideal world.

The other side of the coin is this though. People sometimes point out that, there are many high functioning ones have a job, and they might negate that high number, but they simply don't get involved with this researches and polls. And that's a fair point. However, there might also be a fair amount of aspies out there that are recluses and don't even interact with "the real world" that much, hence they're not even on the radar at all as well.

Furthermore; and this is where I think it gets interesting, especially with the changes in the DSM 5. For a diagnosis to hold some ground, one of the criteria should be that it has to impact your life. (DSM 5; Autism spectrum disorder 299.00 section D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.) and this if you are able to hold a job, are you even on the spectrum? Yes, we're not going to retroactively take away diagnosis, however, by definition, one can wonder if you can even speak of people who pass criteria D (as well as others) if there's much to diagnose anymore. And the way I see it, if you're socially inept, much like Aspergirl4Hire points out, you might not be that succesfull in employment, as a lot revolves around social behavior, not so much skills.

I also feel that the aspies who manage jobs and especially higher functioning ones (both jobs, and individuals)... to me it comes down these people being so skilled, that their skillset is so valueable employers might put up with some odd traits someone has. That's not that uncommon. A bigger question is, and perhaps more important now; how do people hold up if they're all held against the same light? Some might require support but get a job, while others, are hired because of skill or more liberal social norms at company A. For others, support is not available and some might struggle when they get laid off and have to move to company B with more rigid social norms.

The number 80; it doesn't feel that odd, if you look at all the pro's and cons, but I hear that number floating around too much without much proof to back those numbers up; but then again, as with all research, you can only make numbers from whomever participates.

Last year I conducted a poll on this forum. And while the samplesize was small... I mean, I can't force people to participate, here are some numbers that came out.

About 44% said they were unemployed (all unemployment combined) while 37% said they had a job. It's nowhere the 80% of course, but even if almost half of the people on the spectrum have no job, that's a lot... even if half have a job. It's nowhere the rates for unemployment in general in developed countries (which is <8% in general if I'm correct).

https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/the-aspiescentral-monthly-poll-march-2014.5642/

 

[Bellatrix]

Thanks for all the responses

That pie chart, breaking down the categories as it does, is probably more useful in determining our true position in relation to employment than any dry proclamation that it is X percent of whatever population. Context is of course important, and the actual figures will vary from nation to nation, across age groups and according to socioeconomic status (ex. if your parents are filthy rich and paying for your attendance at Harvard, not having a job really won't matter much). My guess is that the 70 to 80 percent figure cannot be verified or otherwise substantiated, and is therefore of little, if any, use to us. The two categories of unemployment within that chart (i.e. unemployed and living on government assistance, and unemployed with no stable income) 'only' add to 37%, but even this figure is of course way too high.

 

[King_Oni]

Thanks for all the responses

That pie chart, breaking down the categories as it does, is probably more useful in determining our true position in relation to employment than any dry proclamation that it is X percent of whatever population. Context is of course important, and the actual figures will vary from nation to nation, across age groups and according to socioeconomic status (ex. if your parents are filthy rich and paying for your attendance at Harvard, not having a job really won't matter much). My guess is that the 70 to 80 percent figure cannot be verified or otherwise substantiated, and is therefore of little, if any, use to us. The two categories of unemployment within that chart (i.e. unemployed and living on government assistance, and unemployed with no stable income) 'only' add to 37%, but even this figure is of course way too high.

You're missing the "I volunteer but have no job otherwise" group which is why I got to 44%. (makes up 12 votes instead of 10)

As much as I appreciate and respect people doing volunteering, it's not a job that pays the bills in most cases; and considering it's voluntarily, it's a bit easier to get into I reckon. If it doesn't suit you, you can tell them so and not volunteer. There's no real incentive there. Of course, many of us could try volunteering for experience, social skills and whatever you have... but it's not gainful employment, which I think is what overall, the number in employment on the spectrum should be about.

Of course, context in general is important, but that's with every statistic, even if you look at unemployment rates in a nation regardless of disability.

But 44 or 37 percent unemployed is of course way too high, especially if you hold that against overall unemployment rates in western countries. That by itself shows that there's a big discrepancy between being employed with an disability (and therefore being a functional, participating and contributing member of society) and being unemployed with whatever you have going on.

 

[Bellatrix]

Actually, I deliberately excluded the volunteering category because, strictly speaking, people who volunteer are working even though they don't get paid to do so. The same with students. I myself actually have two jobs, but I don't get paid for either one unfortunately.

 

[Bellatrix]

An article I just now uncovered -

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/o...=Full&region=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article

"A 2011 study found that 39 percent of young people with autism in the United States received no services whatsoever after high school. Loneliness and social isolation are major issues. Unemployment among adults with autism — most of them higher functioning than my brother — is common. An estimated 90 percent of adults with autism are unemployed or underemployed."

No sources for this 90% figure are given that I can see.

 

[King_Oni]

Actually, I deliberately excluded the volunteering category because, strictly speaking, people who volunteer are working even though they don't get paid to do so. The same with students. I myself actually have two jobs, but I don't get paid for either one unfortunately.

Fair enough; but for me... a work should be, first and foremost, something for financial gain and improvement, not to keep me busy (since I can do that without volunteering). If we're not considering employment to be gainful, what exactly constitutes a job? Also; it makes up for creative numbers by a government about who is and isn't employed. Heck; for what it's worth, I might be employed by being part of staff on this forum.

I've considered employment to be something along the lines of being paid an hourly wage up to 1.0 FTE (which in this country is a 40 hour workweek) or an equivalent if you're doing freelancing and such; and have more liberal hours. Why I take this stance is because, working for free does not pay my bills and technically, I'd still be applying for welfare checks to make ends meet and thus be part of the unemployed, but by some arbitrary standard, capable workforce.

So volunteering might be a bit of gray area, but if you get down to it, so is being employed apparently. Afterall, being employed parttime but earning... oh, I don't know... over 100 dollars/euro an hour for only 20 hours a week, still brings in more money than a lot of full time jobs, while other people work 60 to 80 hours on 2 jobs... do they constitute for being double employed? And what about people who hold a job, but still apply for welfare because they need more money because their (parttime) job doesn't pay enough to pay bills? Granted, it's something I hear more in the US than in Western europe, where people hold 2 jobs, but it's not like it's uncommon from what I hear/read.

 

[King_Oni]

An article I just now uncovered -

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/o...=Full&region=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article

"A 2011 study found that 39 percent of young people with autism in the United States received no services whatsoever after high school. Loneliness and social isolation are major issues. Unemployment among adults with autism — most of them higher functioning than my brother — is common. An estimated 90 percent of adults with autism are unemployed or underemployed."

No sources for this 90% figure are given that I can see.

Exactly, and that's the problem. There's no source for this. Still... from my personal perspective, those numbers are "good" in that, I'm unemployed myself, hence the notion that the large majority is unemployed means there's a significant problem that has to be looked into. 90% probably looks a lot more significant than say... 30%. While that might still be too much, I would expect a government to consider 90% more of an issue than 30... but I might live in an ideal world.

 

[Xenocity]

The problem is there is very little data collection on adults with Asperger Syndrome and Autism.
Everything in the U.S. and many countries is geared towards little children.

Once the person leaves high school they lose nearly all support programs in most states and countries.
Some states allow them to stay on until 22 or 23.

Once you lose those benefits, you are no longer tracked or studied (I can't think of a better word).
Even funding is targeted at children.

Until someone actually bothers to study and research those who are adults with ASDs.
Same goes with mental illness in adults.

I'm going to ask about this when I see my case worker again (hopefully by the end of the month).
I'd like to get into the research and study part of it all, instead of a regular job.
I've tried to find it on my own, but I haven't discovered it.

There is literally no excuse on why we cannot get the data and research from adults with ASDs and better data and research on children with today's mobile technology. This would also be good for their families and friends too.

 

[Xenocity]

Also the U.S. unemployment numbers based on 60,000 adults.
Those who have to leave the workforce for health, parenthood, and similar things aren't counted.
Those working any job, be it mowing lawns once a week, part time job, and full time job are all counted as employed.
Volunteering also counts as employment.
Unemployed is anyone who isn't working that is actively looking for work for at least six months (obviously you have to be part of 60,000)

Right now the U.S. unemployment numbers are lining up with the actual reality of the economy (the real numbers are worse).

 

[DC1346]

Since first learning about Asperger's Syndrome about six years ago, I've often come across the claim that approximately 70 to 80 percent (the precise percentage varies, and it's often as high as 90) of people who are on the proverbial spectrum are either unemployed, or underemployed.

Could this actually be true? Does anyone know the source for this belief?

I suspect this true, though times are admittedly changing and work opportunities are improving.

Think about it.

Under IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, students who receive special education services (including aspies) are entitled to "reasonable accommodation" which includes an individualized education plan (IEP) that's tailored to each student.
Depending upon a student's IEP, he/she could have a mentor or a life coach. The student might have the ability to self impose a time out so that he/she might leave a classroom at any time if he/she feels that stress factors are leading to a meltdown. The student might have reduced homework assignments, extra time to complete assignments, or the ability to work on assignments in the relative privacy and quiet of a special ed classroom.

What happens when these kids graduate? The real world is not so friendly as a structured school environment. Once these kids "mature out" of their special ed programs and graduate, they lose the benefits they had as students. While K-12 children are entitled to all sorts of benefits, the sad reality is that autistic adults don't have much in the way of support. For all too many, once they graduate, it's "sink or swim" time.

Young adults who haven't yet evolved coping mechanisms or scripts for dealing with everyday life are suddenly confronted with having to live on their own while going to college or finding (and retaining) a job. For all too many young people, this has proved to be an impossible task.

Advocates like Temple Grandin suggest that this problem may be getting worse, not better. In Temple Grandin's day (and my day as well), we didn't have cellphones or WIFI. The internet didn't exist. Satellite TV and cable TV did not exist. Television stations shut down at midnight after playing our National Anthem. TV was in black and white because colored televisions hadn't been invented yet.

To entertain ourselves, we played games and in playing games, we developed social skills and learned important things like how to take turns and how to play fair.

In today's world of instant gratification, we can live stream films on our cellphones, tablets, and desktops. We can immerse ourselves in a world of video games and ignore the world that we were born into but are not really a part of. The act of embracing 21st century technology has limited the social development of all too many young people - which is to their ultimate detriment since it hampers their ability to move out and to adopt an independent lifestyle while also going to college or finding and retaining a job.

The good news is that HR directors are starting to realize that Aspies can be very productive.

Look at this article from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/11/health/aspergers-work-irpt/

Anyone who knows anything about us knows that we are largely project and work oriented. We won't waste time in idle gossip. We're like theJoe Fridays of the workforce ... "Just the facts ma'am" (a reference to an old TV series from the 50's.)

 

[Bruce Stern]

Underemployed. My CV through my entire career is full of promising starts and unhappy endings. I'm in a high demand field with a clean record so I'm almost always technically working but have to take less attractive jobs to make ends meet. I have two houses and may end up with three because I buy one then lose my job. I'm off work until I can start my new job and didn't qualify for unemployment because I resigned (albeit under pressure). My job losses have never been due to expertise, medical mistakes, ethical issues or drug use. They have all been due to issues of communication and workplace habits (like dressing inappropriately for the workplace culture, showing up late, etc).

Regarding the reference in the The NYT article. The author refers to a 2011 study. I tried to find using some cross-referencing:

Butterworth, J., Hall, C., A., Smith, A.F., Migliore, A., Winsor, J., Timmons, J., C., Domin, D. (2011) StateData: The National Report on Employment Services and Outcomes.

Newman's study would be another one worth reading:

According to this study, 66% of youth with autism spectrum disorders had worked at some point after high school. However, when surveyed a few years later, only 47% of these youth had jobs. These data were from the National Longitudinal Transition Study 2 (NLTS2), a 10-year project designed to monitor a national sample of students who in 2000 were in special education, and age 13 to 16

Newman, L., Wagner, M., Cameto, R., Knokey, A. (2009) The Post-High School Outcomes of Youth With Disabilities up to 4 Years After High School. A Report From the National longitudinal Transition Study-2 (NLTS2)

I got these from this page: http://autismnow.org/on-the-job/employment-research-and-reports/

[edit for citation research and I'm compulsive about how I write]

 

[Xenocity]

Those numbers don't surprise me.
Hell hopefully I can land a job soon.

 

[DC1346]

I have two houses and may end up with three because I buy one then lose my job. I'm off work until I can start my new job and didn't qualify for unemployment because I resigned (albeit under pressure).

i TOTALLY RELATE TO THIS! Until recently, I owned two houses ... one in PA and one in AZ. I finally sold the one in PA and took a huge loss. The house in AZ is being remodeled and will become a rental property.

Depending upon what the real estate market is like where your houses are, you might consider getting a property manager and putting your houses up for rent so that you're at least off setting the mortgages.

I have had A LOT OF JOBS over the years ... and now I know that I have Asperger's Syndrome, I understand that when my stress levels get to a certain point, I just snap and my fight or flight response kicks in and I'm off to another job.

I very nearly had a panic attack today because the office manager of the high school where I work yelled at me. I had submitted a receipt for my first culinary purchases of the year but because I talked to the school's financial officer, I inadvertently spent money from my school activity account instead of my lab fees account. The secretary lectured me about the difference between the two accounts and this was all news to me because at my last school (in the same district) this would not have been a violation of procedure and the money would have come from my lab fees.

"WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!" growled the office manager. I could feel myself going into meltdown and said that I needed a few moments to pause and reflect.

"YOU ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!" snapped the office manager. "YOU'RE GOING TO STAY HERE AND LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY" She then continued to berate me, telling me that I should have known and that if I didn't know, I should have asked.

When another teacher popped her head into the office to ask if everything was okay, I used that opportunity to make my escape. I went to my classroom, locked the door, and then just collapsed in my office chair for I don't know how long. I snapped out of it when I found another teacher standing by my desk asking me repeatedly if I was alright. She had apparently tried opening the door and finding it locked, had seen me at my desk sitting perfectly still like a statue. When I ignored her locks (and honestly, I never heard her), she opened the door with her key and hurried inside to see if I was okay.

I was okay. I apparently went into a meltdown for 15 minutes or so but I snapped out of it with just enough to prep for my first class.

In any event, since this has been my 4th challenging encounter with the office manager, I can already see that she's going to be a major stress factor in my life. I have previously talked to the principal about this woman's attitude ... and for a while she was better ... and now she's not. (sigh)

I don't know how much more of this woman I can take. The thing that gets me is that she's like a volcano and I never know when she's going to erupt. Not knowing when she will become unpleasant makes it difficult for me to contingency plan.

If things continue to get worse, I will probably move on at year's end. We shall see.

(sigh)

 

[Bruce Stern]

i TOTALLY RELATE TO THIS! Until recently, I owned two houses ... one in PA and one in AZ. I finally sold the one in PA and took a huge loss. The house in AZ is being remodeled and will become a rental property.

Depending upon what the real estate market is like where your houses are, you might consider getting a property manager and putting your houses up for rent so that you're at least off setting the mortgages.

I have had A LOT OF JOBS over the years ... and now I know that I have Asperger's Syndrome, I understand that when my stress levels get to a certain point, I just snap and my fight or flight response kicks in and I'm off to another job.

I very nearly had a panic attack today because the office manager of the high school where I work yelled at me. I had submitted a receipt for my first culinary purchases of the year but because I talked to the school's financial officer, I inadvertently spent money from my school activity account instead of my lab fees account. The secretary lectured me about the difference between the two accounts and this was all news to me because at my last school (in the same district) this would not have been a violation of procedure and the money would have come from my lab fees.

"WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!" growled the office manager. I could feel myself going into meltdown and said that I needed a few moments to pause and reflect.

"YOU ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!" snapped the office manager. "YOU'RE GOING TO STAY HERE AND LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY" She then continued to berate me, telling me that I should have known and that if I didn't know, I should have asked.

When another teacher popped her head into the office to ask if everything was okay, I used that opportunity to make my escape. I went to my classroom, locked the door, and then just collapsed in my office chair for I don't know how long. I snapped out of it when I found another teacher standing by my desk asking me repeatedly if I was alright. She had apparently tried opening the door and finding it locked, had seen me at my desk sitting perfectly still like a statue. When I ignored her locks (and honestly, I never heard her), she opened the door with her key and hurried inside to see if I was okay.

I was okay. I apparently went into a meltdown for 15 minutes or so but I snapped out of it with just enough to prep for my first class.

In any event, since this has been my 4th challenging encounter with the office manager, I can already see that she's going to be a major stress factor in my life. I have previously talked to the principal about this woman's attitude ... and for a while she was better ... and now she's not. (sigh)

I don't know how much more of this woman I can take. The thing that gets me is that she's like a volcano and I never know when she's going to erupt. Not knowing when she will become unpleasant makes it difficult for me to contingency plan.

If things continue to get worse, I will probably move on at year's end. We shall see.

(sigh)

Your situation with the work meltdown. Wow! I can totally relate. It's what led to my last job loss. God. I hope you get things worked out with her. I can only say I relate and there will never be a shortage of power-trippers in the world. I'm hoping I learn to interact, cope and respond to them better. Best of luck in that!

100% agreed on the property management! The worst mistake I made was letting a friend rent my house for me. It took him six months to rent it, he rented to a buddy who let deduct all kinds of stuff he said he paid cash for and never had a receipt. I had a beautiful garden I designed myself and he unplugged the sprinkler control , never plugged it back in and half my plants died. The property management rented in 2 days, videotaped everything and I've the best tenants since. They saved me SO much money and STRESS. Definitely going to do the same thing down here but I'm going to miss this place with my hills, privacy.. sniff...

 

[Bruce Stern]

I made a list of things I'm going to do at my next job. These are open to revision/addition but any one of these have hurt me. It's like freaking Game of Thrones the amount of work I feel I have to do to keep this job I start in less than 3 months.

(1) Better time management! Prioritize tasks and quit getting distracted by low priority items.
(2) Be on time.
(3) Dress appropriately for the office culture.
(4) Learn to chit-chat to a degree of relative confidence.
(5) Use coaching, mentoring or other objective feedback.
(6) Stop the 'suggestions' unless you're specifically asked and even then be careful of who how you communicate them.
(7) Appropriate communication with chain of command and people in positions of authority.
(8) Learn to check-in better with my emotional state and head off meltdowns.
(9) Learn better coping skills to deal with #8.
(10) If upset do not let it show other than with trusted friend or in other situation outside work.
(11) No more blunt honesty unless under rare and proscribed condition.
(12) No more oversharing or over-discussion of favorite topics. Branch out into others interests (see #4)
(13) Better learn to read body language so if someone's bored, etc. I will pick up on it.
(14) Language can repair as well as hurt. Learn to recognize and act on mistakes.
(15) No one likes someone who complains all the time. It may not be the best electronic medical record, office process, communication system, redundant paperwork etc, but it's the way it is and stop trying to change it.
(16) Improve posture and eye contact. These send unintended messages too.
(17) Everyone is connected to the hive-mind. Anything you say/do may reach any number of people and affect your group status.

 

[DC1346]

Your situation with the work meltdown. Wow! I can totally relate. It's what led to my last job loss. God. I hope you get things worked out with her.

Hah ... so after thinking about it, I decided to talk to my building principal. Under the provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act, I requested a reasonable accommodation which is a right that's supposed to be guaranteed to me under the law ... to wit .... that the office manager recognize that if I ask for a time out (because she's yelling at me), I should get a time out and not an angry "NO! YOU HAVE TO STAY AND LISTEN TO ME!" response that includes physically blocking me from being able to leave (really flee) the area.

I told the principal that I came very close to having a meltdown yesterday ... and that this woman's behavior upset me for the rest of the day so I felt as though I was off balance even though the instructional part of my day actually went quite well. I said that if she could not accommodate my request, I was prepared to submit my immediate resignation. I told her that this was the 2nd time this woman has blown up at me and I couldn't take it anymore because there was no way for me to know when she was going to erupt. I further added that talking to this woman is like handling a live grenade whose firing pin has been removed. I know the fuse is ticking down ... but as to when it will explode is anyone's guess.

The principal has now BANNED the office manager from initiating contact with me. If I need to talk to her, fine and well ... but she is NOT ALLOWED to hunt me down, to publicly berate me, and to prevent me from leaving.

I hope this will be the end of it ... but we will see.

I am still stressed out about it and am worried about this woman's reaction and how our next conversation will go. The reality is that I WILL have to interact with her because she oversees two of my culinary budgets.

I am not looking forward to our next conversation and just thinking about talking to her again is making my stomach churn.

100% agreed on the property management! The worst mistake I made was letting a friend rent my house for me. It took him six months to rent it, he rented to a buddy who let deduct all kinds of stuff he said he paid cash for and never had a receipt ...

Heh ... I'm sorry for your experience. While working in Saudi Arabia, I befriended another American, a school psychologist from back east. I will refer to him as "George" which is not his real name.

George laughed when I told him that I had engaged the services of a property management company. Since George had a Ph.D in psychology, he assured me that he was a "good judge of character." He interviewed prospective tenants, accepted one with whom he felt a rapport, and moved overseas with every confidence that he had found a reliable and trustworthy tenant.

One month after George moved abroad, the tenant stopped paying rent. George emailed a friend to go talk to the tenant and the tenant cursed out the friend and threatened to shoot him. A few days passed while George and his friend exchanged phone calls and emails but finally the friend went back to the house accompanied by local police only to find that the tenant had abandoned the house. Not only had he abandoned the house but he had trashed the place, smashing the walls with a sledge hammer, smashing mirrors and windows, and pouring cement down the sinks. He even took all of the appliances INCLUDING the stove, microwave, and refrigerator. The cost of repairing the damage far exceeded what little George had made in rent.

I could have been a jerk and said, "I told you so" but knew enough to refrain from doing this.

 

[DC1346]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread ... so I've started an Aspie Teachers' thread which may be found at:

https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/the-aspie-teachers-thread.13475/