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The apostle "doubting" Thomas: needing proof vs. faith

Magna

Magna

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
According to the Bible the apostle Thomas believed that Jesus was the son of God when Jesus was alive because Thomas, like the other apostles, witnessed the many purported miracles that Jesus performed, firsthand. It would be pretty difficult to imagine any of the apostles not believing what they were actually seeing (ie Jesus' godlike/other worldly actions).

However the story goes that Thomas wasn't there when the resurrected Jesus appeared to the ten remaining apostles (minus Judas at that point) and didn't believe the other apostles that what/who they saw was actually Jesus. Thomas didn't believe based on faith alone. He didn't believe it at all because he had no proof which prompted him to say that the only way he'd believe that Jesus had in fact come back to life is if he could touch him physically (ie "put his hand in Jesus' side, etc). Then Jesus appears to all 11 apostles including Thomas and asks/tells Thomas to put Thomas' hand in Jesus' side, etc. to which Thomas exclaims in belief: Deus meus et omnia!" (My Lord and my God).

My thoughts related to this:

Jesus does NOT say anything to the effect of:

"Well, Thomas, you blew it. You were supposed to believe on faith alone. You didn't. You not only didn't believe it was me when your cohorts told you it was, but you also didn't believe me when I said I was coming back. For those reasons, you can't go Heaven. In fact, sadly and as a lesson to others....you're going to Hell. Yes, let this be a lesson to everyone here and anyone hereafter: If you need actual proof to believe in me/God, you're not fit for Heaven. There's only one place for any of you that don't believe based on faith and that's eternal punishment with no recourse."

The idea that everyone who has cognitive abilities, to a person, needs to believe in God with no proof or that same God will punish them eternally is shameful and absolutely contradicts the story of the apostle Thomas and Jesus.
 
I agree. The false premise in many people's thinking is that faith is belief in something without any evidence. I didn't believe until I had direct experience with the Divine. To believe the claims of Christianity without proof sounds, to me, like some sort of idiotic madness and I don't understand how it can be done.
 
Magna said:
According to the Bible the apostle Thomas believed that Jesus was the son of God when Jesus was alive because Thomas, like the other apostles, witnessed the many purported miracles that Jesus performed, firsthand. It would be pretty difficult to imagine any of the apostles not believing what they were actually seeing (ie Jesus' godlike/other worldly actions).

However the story goes that Thomas wasn't there when the resurrected Jesus appeared to the ten remaining apostles (minus Judas at that point) and didn't believe the other apostles that what/who they saw was actually Jesus. Thomas didn't believe based on faith alone. He didn't believe it at all because he had no proof which prompted him to say that the only way he'd believe that Jesus had in fact come back to life is if he could touch him physically (ie "put his hand in Jesus' side, etc). Then Jesus appears to all 11 apostles including Thomas and asks/tells Thomas to put Thomas' hand in Jesus' side, etc. to which Thomas exclaims in belief: Deus meus et omnia!" (My Lord and my God).

My thoughts related to this:

Jesus does NOT say anything to the effect of:

"Well, Thomas, you blew it. You were supposed to believe on faith alone. You didn't. You not only didn't believe it was me when your cohorts told you it was, but you also didn't believe me when I said I was coming back. For those reasons, you can't go Heaven. In fact, sadly and as a lesson to others....you're going to Hell. Yes, let this be a lesson to everyone here and anyone hereafter: If you need actual proof to believe in me/God, you're not fit for Heaven. There's only one place for any of you that don't believe based on faith and that's eternal punishment with no recourse."

The idea that everyone who has cognitive abilities, to a person, needs to believe in God with no proof or that same God will punish them eternally is shameful and absolutely contradicts the story of the apostle Thomas and Jesus.
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The fact is if you doubt on anything..it is not wrong.
Doubts are normal, fears are normal. It is part of a normal human process
So therefore how could God blame you for something that is normal?
We are his dumb children so He should treat us as such instead of expect a lot from us as Christians or/and humans
So therefore if you are smart you should not be looked down on because you are still dumb compared to God.
He knows our dumb areas and should help
If you are a non intellectual person then that does not mean you are dumb. It is how you apply yourself
Everyone has doubts, worries and fears and struggles it is human
To err is human which means make an error.
I am not to blame regardless of struggles because that is why Jesus died
If people do not believe in God, it is not their fault some people have their reasons
Others do not..I'll just say that, they have plenty but I know some are trying to be nice.
Anyway they work it all out because I am done.
 
I would ask whether the episode with Thomas occurred before or after the day of Pentecost, when the promised Spirit began to indwell the disciples.
 
The bible says, to approach God you need to believe he exists, and that he rewards people who seek him.
 
NB79 said:
The bible says, to approach God you need to believe he exists, and that he rewards people who seek him.
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Except the part of the Bible where the apostle Thomas didn't believe that Jesus existed (as God) after Jesus died and only until Thomas had concrete proof?
 
Magna said:
Why?
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Because there are several benefits to the indwelling Spirit, most dramatically stated as ‘having the mind of Christ’, which Paul teaches as that single thing that separates Christians from the mass of humanity. The OP seems intended as a reflection of the current situation with believers, while Thomas’ doubt occurred before Pentecost and therefore before the Holy Spirit indwelt believers. Not a decisive factor, but as I said, worth asking.

The OP states a case I’ve never heard uttered in earnest, that a failure to accept the Lord in faith would be a permanent division between that person and God. In which case, of course, nobody would ever become a Christian. It is also to assert that, once a person comes to believe, any lapse of faith would bring permanent alienation. I’ve never heard either of those positions put forward until today.
 
The Pandector said:
Because there are several benefits to the indwelling Spirit, most dramatically stated as ‘having the mind of Christ’, which Paul teaches as that single thing that separates Christians from the mass of humanity. The OP seems intended as a reflection of the current situation with believers, while Thomas’ doubt occurred before Pentecost and therefore before the Holy Spirit indwelt believers. Not a decisive factor, but as I said, worth asking.

The OP states a case I’ve never heard uttered in earnest, that a failure to accept the Lord in faith would be a permanent division between that person and God. In which case, of course, nobody would ever become a Christian. It is also to assert that, once a person comes to believe, any lapse of faith would bring permanent alienation. I’ve never heard either of those positions put forward until today.
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Like much of theology, contemplation about what actually did or didn't happen is open to speculation so I'll take such liberties with this topic.

It's correct that according to the Bible Thomas as one of the Apostles, believed that Jesus was the son of God while Jesus was alive and before Jesus was crucified. Easy to believe when the Apostles were actually witnessing Jesus' miracles firsthand and in real time. Pre-Pentecost aside, the Apostles were in hiding after Jesus' burial wondering what would become of them. One can logically presume that they started to doubt whether Jesus was in fact the Son of God with each passing day after Jesus' burial. It's logical to presume that Jesus' death started to result in a "lapse of faith". Actually we don't have to presume. Thomas doubted all of it. That's probably why he wasn't there. Perhaps he was deciding on what he was going to do with his life at that point. Perhaps he was in the process of leaving the ministry completely.

The point is, as stated in the OP, Jesus didn't admonish or punish Thomas in the least for Thomas' disbelief. Thomas required proof to believe. I don't see it more complex than that.
 
The logic mention is presumably per the OP wording that does allow it to come across as contradiction..?

To that, I will say that the more detailed explanation and the actual lesson is that Thomas was suspicious of Roman / Pharisees shenanigans, that some sketchy imposter (or both) were trying to exploit the already professed prophecy of who Jesus was and of his claim to rise again. Even if one just takes it as a story instead of actual, historical truth, one sides with the Thomas character on this, as it could have truly been a case of exploitation if you know all of what the Romans / Pharisees previously tried to control the narrative of who / what Jesus was, etc. It'd be an obvious tactic that they would attempt to infiltrate, further write and control the masses from then on. Thomas was debatably the smarter human in this situation, which I contend is a deeper part of the lesson. Faith can lead some to any lengths, but it's not always enough. If this weren't true, then what's the point of ever showcasing miracles, right? Actual proof becomes a humbling thing, too, and though it could be rather thrown in the face of someone lacking faith...still...there's legitimate reason for caution and being reserved because not having cautious reservation has just as often humbled a lot of people, as well. Overall, yes, it's good that Jesus didn't condemn Thomas for doubt.
 
The Pandector said:
It is also to assert that, once a person comes to believe, any lapse of faith would bring permanent alienation. I’ve never heard either of those positions put forward until today.
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The "unforgiveable sin" of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" comes to mind as an example of "permanent alienation" as you say. Although I don't believe the exact and the specific examples of such a seemingly critically important pitfall are even defined in the Bible which in and of itself is incredible.
 
Magna said:
The "unforgiveable sin" of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" comes to mind as an example of "permanent alienation" as you say. Although I don't believe the exact and the specific examples of such a seemingly critically important pitfall are even defined in the Bible which in and of itself is incredible.
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Sounds as though you’re equating your generic ‘lapse of faith’ with ‘blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’. I didn’t assert that there was no such thing as a permanent separation from God, only that having a lapse in faith does not cause such a rift, as the OP agrees.

My point was that the OP seems worded to imply that somebody somewhere had somehow suggested that a lapse of faith can cause that permanent rift, and that I have never before heard that propounded.

I agree, it would be nice to have a clear definition of the sin that God won’t forgive. But the context of that one mention makes it pretty clear that saying the work of the Spirit is of the devil at least approaches the threshold. Which has probably given pause to many worldly wise people who wish to demean the work of the Spirit, though, admittedly, most of that ilk would not be dissuaded… but they can’t say they weren’t warned.
 
Magna said:
Like much of theology, contemplation about what actually did or didn't happen is open to speculation so I'll take such liberties with this topic.

It's correct that according to the Bible Thomas as one of the Apostles, believed that Jesus was the son of God while Jesus was alive and before Jesus was crucified. Easy to believe when the Apostles were actually witnessing Jesus' miracles firsthand and in real time. Pre-Pentecost aside, the Apostles were in hiding after Jesus' burial wondering what would become of them. One can logically presume that they started to doubt whether Jesus was in fact the Son of God with each passing day after Jesus' burial. It's logical to presume that Jesus' death started to result in a "lapse of faith". Actually we don't have to presume. Thomas doubted all of it. That's probably why he wasn't there. Perhaps he was deciding on what he was going to do with his life at that point. Perhaps he was in the process of leaving the ministry completely.

The point is, as stated in the OP, Jesus didn't admonish or punish Thomas in the least for Thomas' disbelief. Thomas required proof to believe. I don't see it more complex than that.
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“Pre-Pentecost… the apostles were in hiding”. True. And post-Pentecost they openly led lives that led to almost all of them being martyred. So it seems to me dismissive to say “pre-Pentecost aside”. My original suggestion was that one would expect different behavior from a person with the indwelling Spirit than one would expect from someone without the indwelling Spirit. And that’s what we see happening with Thomas; without the Spirit he required ‘scientific’ proof.

None of which is to say that a person with the Spirit could never have a lapse of faith, only that it’s reasonable to typify between pre- and post-.
 
It makes less sense for Jesus to be petty and say, "I told you so." It doesn't fit his character. I think the point of the story is to show people can doubt and make mistakes, but still be saved. This is part of being human and why Jesus prays for a different fate, in the Garden of Gesthemane. Even he can doubt.

On a practical level, no religion will catch on if it says we are perfect or damned. Each is about the road from humanity to divinity.
 
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