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Please explain a few things about free will and God (Christianity).

Magna

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Firstly: My intention in this thread is in no way to put down religion, belief in God, religious people, etc. I ask that anyone who responds does so with respect to the belief systems of others, whatever they may be.

Being human, the only perspective I have is mine (as a human). I know that "our ways are not God's ways" or vice versa, which means humans often don't understand why certain things happen when they seem to be bad, hurtful, damaging, etc. Christianity teaches that things that happen to us that seem wrong, bad, unjust, hurtful, heinous, etc happen because there's a bigger picture and only God can see it.

Thinking in human terms from a human perspective and more specifically as a parent, I think of the following scenario:

Assume a parent loves their child dearly. That parent has a goal of raising a child who is autonomous (ie free will) and that parent knows that the child will learn from their mistakes. That parent shouldn't shield the child from every possible misstep and instead needs to allow the child to fail.

However...would a loving human parent sit by as they watch their child make a choice, go in a certain direction in life, etc that would be so dangerous that the choice would be lethal for example? That would never happen. A parent would never watch their child walk towards and step off a cliff for example, knowing full well the child will die and not say anything and watch it happen in order to preserve the child's autonomy, free will, etc. Also, if a child was persistent in wanting to walk toward the cliff, every parent would physically stop the child and literally prevent them from falling to their death.

Eternal hell is certainly the quintessential example of all examples of a fate worse than death, worse that stepping off a cliff, etc. God allows, preserves, protects our autonomy, our free will to the point of watching people step off the cliff to eternal damnation should they choose rather than stopping them. God knows what eternal life is really like. God knows what eternal damnation is really like for people; God knows the severity of it (a severity like nothing else).

If God's inaction was compared to the analogy of a human parent and child, God's inaction would be considered unconscionable. Why doesn't God step in in such instances?
 
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Seems like you've already addressed your question in the second paragraph of your post.
 
Jesus was better with the parables than the allegory of parent and child in the eyes of God. (Adoptive parent and older child, possibly. Infant to say, age five, no way.)

But you have to take into account that by the time people begin to comprehend faith they are old enough to understand certain dangers like cliffs. There is an assumption that people are not completely stupid.

And autonomy of the mind, especially strong willed or stubborn individuals, is not going to be something easily ceded to another, particularly a non-corpereal individual whose dictates are presented by Teacher P. (Way too many variables open to interpretation. And there are a lot of very poor or ineffective teachers out there.)

Faith is very much and individual team sport. Much like swimming. To each their own and to their own ability. The group aspect of faith, is one of my biggest struggles with it because people are what they are. They do not have the knowledge nor the authority to tell me how to believe.

We have a why. Just don't say, 'This is how you get miracles, etc...' Faith is something that is so easily bastardized by others that informed context is nearly impossible to find.

Cults happen way too often and always follow the same pattern, but people are too oblivious to the obvious.

Modern Christianity actually didn't start defining hell as we know it until the 1300's, after the publication of the Divine Comedy.
 
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But you have to take into account that by the time people begin to comprehend faith they are old enough to understand certain dangers like cliffs. There is an assumption that people are not completely stupid.

However, in relation to the infinite I would argue that people are, if not "completely stupid", than nearly so due to the limitation humans have for truly understanding what infinity is; it's directly counter to our understandings as finite beings. We can say we understand infinity as something that goes on forever, but completely understanding "forever" is certainly beyond my grasp.

As such, I would say that humans don't understand the certain danger of infinite damnation. We are "stupid" in that regard. We are children in that regard.
 
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Defining the 'age' of consciousness is not something that is within the realms of human comprehension. The anecdotal evidence of things like past lives, 'old' souls, and reincarnation beliefs in numerous faiths argue to that point.

One could also argue that 'God' was tempted by Lucifer in the Book of Job at the very start of the story when 'God' punished Job as a way to test Job's faith. What is 'God' who is a supreme, all knowing being doing proving a right/wrong argument? Especially by tormenting an innocent believer? In the terms of morality isn't that 'wrong'?

Even Egypt had a chance to avoid 'God's' punishment, if Pharaoh let the Israelites go. (But here, too, we have the documentation of the eruption of Thera and its subsequent fallout of said eruption. All of the 'plague' events empirically traced to a provable source.).

Jesus was also on his own in the wilderness for forty days. Lucifer tempted him, but Jesus didn't get into a right/wrong I'll prove it game with Lucifer at the cost of another person.
 
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Seems like you've already addressed your question in the second paragraph of your post.

This paragraph?

"Being human, the only perspective I have is mine (as a human). I know that "our ways are not God's ways" or vice versa, which means humans often don't understand why certain things happen when they seem to be bad, hurtful, damaging, etc. Christianity teaches that things that happen to us that seem wrong, bad, unjust, hurtful, heinous, etc happen because there's a bigger picture and only God can see it."
 
This paragraph?

"Being human, the only perspective I have is mine (as a human). I know that "our ways are not God's ways" or vice versa, which means humans often don't understand why certain things happen when they seem to be bad, hurtful, damaging, etc. Christianity teaches that things that happen to us that seem wrong, bad, unjust, hurtful, heinous, etc happen because there's a bigger picture and only God can see it."


Yes.

Presumably only humans will be replying to the thread,
but apparently you're hoping for some additional
comments that vary from your own view.
 
Presumably only humans will be replying to the thread,
but apparently you're hoping for some additional
comments that vary from your own view.

Correct. That's exactly why I posted. I'm looking for comments that vary from my own view.
 
How much of humanity's benevolence and better nature is rooted in faith? Assumption tells us, a pretty good chunk of it. Faith in something is a leading weight in how individuals orient their own moral compass.

That something is defined by the human mind and its inherent limitations.
 
The way I've always heard it was that free will was necessary for us to be able to freely choose the good, and that, if God forced us to love him, that'd be coercion or slavery instead of a choice.
 
If God's inaction was compared to the analogy of a human parent and child, God's inaction would be considered unconscionable. Why doesn't God step in in such instances?

Ever thought of praying to God and asking him to answer your question?
 
Once you reach a certain age, you make your own choices and are responsible for the consequences.
 
Ever thought of praying to God and asking him to answer your question?

Many times. I was raised in an extremely religious family to the extent that many aspects of the family dynamic exhibited the same characteristics of religious cults. That's not to say that all extremely religious families are like cults.

I'm open the idea that God exists rather than being Atheist, but I've tried many times in my life to utterly, unequivocally believe in God but in being honest with myself in retrospect it was always at best an unsuccessful contrivance on my part; living a lie in a way. That's of course speaking only of myself. I am not implying that other people who absolutely believe in God "with their whole heart" are living a lie.

One reason I try to be respectful of religions and religious people is that I firmly believe that anything a person does, thinks, believes, etc that is kind, doesn't hurt others and is respectful of others, is justified if it helps them "get through this thing called life" (as Prince says) in a constructive way.
 
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Many times. I was raised in an extremely religious family to the extent that many aspects of the family dynamic exhibited the same characteristics of religious cults. That's not to say that all extremely religious families are like cults.

I'm open the idea that God exists rather than being Atheist, but I've tried many times in my life to utterly, unequivocally believe in God but in being honest with myself in retrospect it was always at best an unsuccessful contrivance on my part; living a lie in a way. That's of course speaking only of myself. I am not implying that other people who absolutely believe in God "with their whole heart" are living a lie.

One reason I try to be respectful of religions and religious people is that I firmly believe that anything a person does, thinks, believes, etc that is kind, doesn't hurt others and is respectful of others, is justified if it helps them "get through this thing called life" (as Prince says) in a constructive way.

There's a part in the Bible where Jesus calls over a child. He says to have faith like the child. That's how I view the Bible. And God above all.
Including his ways.
And I'd like to add if you ask him in prayer. Believe you will receive an answer. But, ask he explain it to you in a way you can understand.
As for Job there are many reasons that occurred. I don't claim to understand all. But, a few are obvious. One being the event with Job that is written. Is an example to those who would come after. For answers and instructions in living and understanding.
Another I have to say is dealing with man's self importance. Believing wrongly that we hold power over all things to our own glory.
Something Job said of himself. That God challenged him to prove.
 
I totally believe in God. My understanding of Him not interfering in the world's ways is that He created us in the hope of having a personal father/child relationship with each of us. If He stepped in, governed the world & stopped evil things happening, that would make us mindless & just doing as we're told. He gave us free will in the hope that we would all choose Him over own selfishness.

In the book of Job, my understanding is that God is trying to show Job how much pride is in his heart. He knows Job is a man after His own heart but pride is still in the way. Finally, at the end, Job sees this truth & repents, asking for forgiveness. I can't speak to the details of Job's trials but in essence, it's about a father opening his son's eyes to the truth.

I personally don't like religion at all. To me, religion is rules & regulations - God is love - and the 2 don't equate. So I simply live with God as my Father & I talk to him how I'd talk to anyone. I work at trying to live how He wants me to, which in my case, has meant that He wants me in community support work. My role is to have as many clients as possible know that they're valued & loved.

If they don't believe in God, then I don't mention Him at all. I'm not anointed to talk to people about Him. I'm anointed to show people His love through my actions. So I take them to appointments, I provide personal care & I clean their houses. I talk to them in a friendly way by always being positive & happy, I do my absolute best at all times because I'm not there just for the pay cheque & that shows by my attitude & behaviour towards them. In the meantime, I silently pray for them.

I used to live by the phrase of God helps those who help themselves, so I thought I had to make my decisions & then God would help me fulfill them. I made mistake after mistake in life until my 40's when I had my first real revelation. That revelation was that I should always be trying to do what He wants, because He has nothing but the best in store for me. Just like a father for his child. The only time I've ever done anything right has been when I've done what He wants. In other words, living according to His will. Sometimes the hardest part is working out what His next step for me is.

I'm human, I'm fallible, I'm endlessly apologising to Him for my attitude, pride, self pity etc but when I apologise, I also made myself learn to accept His grace & mercy & I keep trying. He knows I'll never be perfect, yet I've never felt as much love from any human (including my parents) as I have from Him.

End of rant ;) :D
 
It's a nice thought but what if you lose a child? What kind of God lets your children die? I hope there is a God and I somehow end up where he is. So I can kick his butt for all the evil and vile things he created and allowed to happen.
I don't believe God 'lets' children die. Children die because of accidents, other horrible people or situations etc. I already explained why I believe God doesn't intervene. I also don't want to be a person that thinks it'll never happen to my children (just because I'm a Christian). I've thought about all this & there's no way I could ever be prepared fully because I'm human. If one of my children does die, however, I'd like to believe that I won't be blaming God, but rather, be grateful that He's there to scoop my child up in His arms & be grateful that He is always with me to comfort & help me through the crisis.

I can't guarantee that would be the case, of course, but I'd like to believe it'd be the case.

God hasn't created anything vile or evil, in my opinion. Man has done that.
 
The universe is much more complex, than even the most educated and brightest, would even try to imagine, I'm Quite content to be Agnostic, not my business, to tell a entity called God how to conduct itself.
 
Firstly: My intention in this thread is in no way to put down religion, belief in God, religious people, etc. I ask that anyone who responds does so with respect to the belief systems of others, whatever they may be.

Being human, the only perspective I have is mine (as a human). I know that "our ways are not God's ways" or vice versa, which means humans often don't understand why certain things happen when they seem to be bad, hurtful, damaging, etc. Christianity teaches that things that happen to us that seem wrong, bad, unjust, hurtful, heinous, etc happen because there's a bigger picture and only God can see it.

Thinking in human terms from a human perspective and more specifically as a parent, I think of the following scenario:

Assume a parent loves their child dearly. That parent has a goal of raising a child who is autonomous (ie free will) and that parent knows that the child will learn from their mistakes. That parent shouldn't shield the child from every possible misstep and instead needs to allow the child to fail.

However...would a loving human parent sit by as they watch their child make a choice, go in a certain direction in life, etc that would be so dangerous that the choice would be lethal for example? That would never happen. A parent would never watch their child walk towards and step off a cliff for example, knowing full well the child will die and not say anything and watch it happen in order to preserve the child's autonomy, free will, etc. Also, if a child was persistent in wanting to walk toward the cliff, every parent would physically stop the child and literally prevent them from falling to their death.

Eternal hell is certainly the quintessential example of all examples of a fate worse than death, worse that stepping off a cliff, etc. God allows, preserves, protects our autonomy, our free will to the point of watching people step off the cliff to eternal damnation should they choose rather than stopping them. God knows what eternal life is really like. God knows what eternal damnation is really like for people; God knows the severity of it (a severity like nothing else).

If God's inaction was compared to the analogy of a human parent and child, God's inaction would be considered unconscionable. Why doesn't God step in in such instances?
When I struggle with this as a Christian, I think of the scene in the movie Ray where his mom watches him struggle with finding his way being blind. She knows if she doesn't allow him to struggle through the dark, he will never learn any degree of self-sufficiency in the long run will make him successful. That is a picture of free will to me as Christians believe people do as incredible as it sounds sometimes choose hell over heaven out of their rebellion against God.
 
Anthropomorphizing God (ie describing God and God's actions, inactions, etc in terms of human behaviors, actions, etc) is a perfectly useful tool for us as humans. God is anthropomorphized in the Bible countless times and Jesus himself did so when he called God our "Father".

As such another idea along this same topic that I've been thinking about recently is the idea of eternal punishment and suffering with absolutely no recourse of any kind. No human parent (save for those that may in fact by psychopaths, sociopaths, sadists, mentally deranged, etc) would punish their child for breaking the parent's rules with eternal suffering and no recourse. The imbalance in that would be blatant. When children are punished, they often regret their actions and are often remorseful...only after the punishment is given. I'm guessing one would be hard pressed to find anyone in hell who likes it there and wants to stay (ie they're all likely regretful and even remorseful).

It's incomprehensible to me that a "loving God" would literally banish most people to hell where they would suffer continually for eternity, eternity and never give them a chance for rehabilitation, etc. I can't believe that. I can't believe that those who make it to Heaven (this topic is under the presumption that one exists, of course) wouldn't at some point in eternity say: "Lord, haven't they suffered enough?"

The idea of what hell is purported to be is disturbing of course; however, I find it more disturbing actually that "God" as is commonly described (loving, caring, kind, forgiving, Father, Shepherd who tirelessly seeks and rejoices at finding the one lost lamb, etc) relegates most people to constant pain, suffering and torture forever and without end with no recourse and no alternative. On a base level it seems sick.
 
I think seeking the logic of reality in an anthropomorphization of reality is unproductive. Just because we turn the chaos of causality into a deity doesn't mean we'll be able to make sense of any of it. In fact, adding in a human touch and thinking in terms of love and goals muddles things to such a degree you may now easily spend several lifetimes wading through a confusing swamp of your own design (the spiritual journey).
I understand the christian God as fulfilling a role of parental authority. Injecting justice, love, law and purpose into reality where there is none. As well as of course comforting those afraid of the nature of transience by providing a potential of eternity. Yet this convenient God is overlapped with an inconvenient reality or else the faith would not have an anchor point that allows you to truly believe the comforts.
As a result you feel the discrepancy between the unknowable chaos of reality and the image of God as written in the Bible. It cannot add up or what would be written in the Bible would simply be all you could know from observing the universe as a human 2000 years ago which wouldn't provide much comfort at all. Fast forward centuries worth of arguing and branching sects as a result of ceaseless attempts to reconcile this fundamental incompatibility.

A worldview that allows us this many moral and logical luxuries will never truly work. There will always be a tension in the myriad of small leaps of logic used to keep the whole thing together and meaningful. I'd say that when you stumble on one of them, as you've done here, you should consider it some casual intellectual playtime instead of a grand view-shattering issue. You'll give yourself a migraine otherwise with how deep the apologetics rabbit hole goes. The happiest religious people spend the least time concerned about the contents of their faith. Take it or leave it.
 

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