NT and Aspie Communication

[Grumpy Cat]

Well, read enough of them, and you are bound to remember some of them at least, no? I know you're NT, but not all aspies have an easy time with vocabulary either. Still, words are the only tools we have to communicate, and it is so useful to have the right tool when you need it. Was that abstract? Now I am getting paranoid...

At any rate, I will of course do as you ask, though, and write without the "filter." In return, please ask me to explain/reword if needed to understand. I don't mind.

"Well, read enough of them, and you are bound to remember some of them at least, no?"

No. Seeing all those big words reminds me of my anatomy class. I had to remember and spell huge words and it took me hours to learn. After the class was over, I forgot most of those words. For me, to remember large words I would have to work with them a lot. Like I told Loomis, I have to relate a large word to something I'm familiar with like "Toxoplasmosis Gondii" I related back to Waldo and have never forgot it. Another example would be like drugs - they have large trade names and a generic name. I can remember the names of the drugs (trade names only - generic names are very hard) I give out over time from being around them so much, but if I just learn a drugs name and I'm not around it repeatedly I have to keep refreshing myself with that drugs name. Big words don't come easy to me - I don't know if its like that for all NT's though.

 

[May Black]

Well, knowing the dictionary definition of a word and being able to use/understand its use in a sentence are different skills. However, I must say that my problems have historically been in ORAL conversation. You are the first person to complain here (or elsewhere) about not being able to understand the things I write b/c they are too abstract. Nurse has indicated a few words I used were new to her, but she seemed able to read my posts after looking them up or asking to rephrase with a different word. Possibly others have had such difficulty but did not comment?

I could and would use any of the words in the sentence I sampled. What I think might cause troubles for me is the sentence structure, but not solely. I think I have to focus too much on how you're saying things, which makes it harder for me to understand what you're saying, if that makes any sense to you at all. I have hard time putting finger on it. Maybe by trying to be as precise as possible you fill the sentence with more information than my brain is capable of comfortably processing. It's not that I'm not able to understand what you're saying, it just requires more effort on my side. I wouldn't be even bringing it up had you not mentioned people have hard time understanding you sometimes.

I wonder, is it difficult for you in any way to deal with language that is not precise? Lets say my last sentence, would you have preferred I made it clear that by understanding I only mean in oral conversations (no pun intended) or are you fine with me being vague?

 

[May Black]

I like posting here b/c I don't have to work so hard to use the "right" words. Most of the time, the word I type here is the first word that came to me. In the real world I filter almost everything I say.

I can imagine. I really enjoy reading your posts. It's like doing brain gymnastics.

 

[May Black]

Was that abstract? Now I am getting paranoid...

At any rate, I will of course do as you ask, though, and write without the "filter." In return, please ask me to explain/reword if needed to understand. I don't mind.

Please don't feel that way, it was not my intention in any way to make you feel uncomfortable about the way you write. When presented with a problem that interests me, I'll try to decipher it, and sometimes I will keep doing that a tad longer than required. I do score borderline Aspie after all.

Well, read enough of them, and you are bound to remember some of them at least, no? I know you're NT, but not all aspies have an easy time with vocabulary either. Still, words are the only tools we have to communicate, and it is so useful to have the right tool when you need it.

I don't think we'd be able to use words the way you do even with a lot of training honestly. I can express myself on an academic level fairly decently, but I am not capable of transferring that successfully into informal language and even if I was, it wouldn't be on your level.

And sorry for writing three posts instead of one, I didn't realize there was a second page at first.

 

[May Black]

Big words don't come easy to me - I don't know if its like that for all NT's though.

I can memorize more or less anything I want, sometimes when I learn a language I will know the words, but not remember the meaning of it. As in, I can ask my boyfriend something like "what does convoluted mean again" when we're out walking on the street just because the word popped in my mind.

 

[SyAn]

Could it be that being misunderstood so often IRL we over-focus on being explicitly precise, which can result in oral communication output approaching convoluted incomprehensibility?

 

[SyAn]

To all who write here: I am continuously impressed at the level of respect for each other's being who they are that I read here, makes me confident that whoever will not or mis-understand will ask for clarification - wish this was the case also IRL . . .
Thank you all

 

[May Black]

Could it be that being misunderstood so often IRL we over-focus on being explicitly precise, which can result in oral communication output approaching convoluted incomprehensibility?

I cannot express in words how much I appreciate just about everything about that sentence.

To all who write here: I am continuously impressed at the level of respect for each other's being who they are that I read here, makes me confident that whoever will not or mis-understand will ask for clarification - wish this was the case also IRL . . .
Thank you all

I feel the NT world has a lot to learn from the Aspies in that respect.

 

[Randomperson]

Words only exist so that they an be used, not to be forgotten, not be be bastardized and contractioned.

 

[icesyckel]

Could it be that being misunderstood so often IRL we over-focus on being explicitly precise, which can result in oral communication output approaching convoluted incomprehensibility?

There are things that many NT's feel "go without saying" or writing, for that matter. Because I do not pick up on many non-verbal messages/signals, I have to rely more on words. The more precise the words, the better, but only if the other person understood them. Whether this results in "convoluted incomprehensibility," I cannot say; however, I don't find that I have difficulty getting NT's to understand me in oral communications when I need to - sometimes it takes more effort than it should, but most seem to understand me when I speak.

It is me understanding them, actually, that is more the issue. Again, they are "saying things without saying them," whereas I am being straight and verbal with them.

Regardless, I have observed that NT's don't really communicate all that well without using words. Their "unspoken language" is imprecise even among them. I've seen many couples, for example, get into tiffs over "Honey, I can't read your mind!" I think it is better to err on the side of being too wordy than to be misunderstood resulting in an unintended argument/conflict.

 

[icesyckel]

I can imagine. I really enjoy reading your posts. It's like doing brain gymnastics.

For the sake of clarity, I don't speak exactly as I write (no one does) and especially not as I write when I am here. I am posting sort of in the raw, and I come here as a place where I don't have to work on "blending in."

My psych described my efforts to assimilate to (cause myself to resemble/blend in with) so-called normal people and their culture as "a second full-time job that no one else knows about." I couldn't have put it better. It's one of the reasons I like him - he is incredibly insightful. He couldn't have described it in this fashion, so accurately, without understanding exactly what it was like for me.

So, while I know there are NT's who post here, and I like that they do, I'm here to relax and just be me. That said, I think there is some confusion - again, I don't often have problems IRL with getting NT's to understand me in oral conversation (though sometimes I do and I used to have such problems a lot more in the past). Often, it is more my difficulty in understanding them.

Also, it depends on the subject. If we're discussing work, then no problem. If we're discussing something less concrete like art appreciation, then it is much much more difficult.

 

[icesyckel]

Maybe by trying to be as precise as possible you fill the sentence with more information than my brain is capable of comfortably processing. It's not that I'm not able to understand what you're saying, it just requires more effort on my side. I wouldn't be even bringing it up had you not mentioned people have hard time understanding you sometimes.

Again, my difficulty is more with understanding NT's in oral conversations. However, I did in the past (especially when I was very young) have significant trouble getting NT's to understand me in oral conversation as well. I may have referenced that in a past post, in all fairness, and confused the conversation here. However, even now there are some occasions where there is a gap, and neither I nor the NT knows where we "got off the rails" so to speak. Often, I suspect from Nurse's posts, that it has to do with vocabulary.

I work in a very intellectual field. Most of the NT's I am around and interact with on a daily basis have an immense vocabulary. Some of them have better vocabularies, actually. In deeper thought, I believe the problems are more related to when I am in a different social setting, like at a family event or social function with a different "crowd" where not everyone has post-graduate credentials. I think I sometimes forget that I need to alter my word choice for a different "audience."

I wonder, is it difficult for you in any way to deal with language that is not precise? Lets say my last sentence, would you have preferred I made it clear that by understanding I only mean in oral conversations (no pun intended) or are you fine with me being vague?

I understood everything you wrote, actually. I rarely have difficulty with understanding what NT people write. It's what they don't write and don't say that sometimes confuses me.

I prefer precise language, but I do not require it. I believe precise language better conveys a persons intended message. That is why it is "precise." However, I realize that there is a degree of precision I cannot expect from most NT's, who prefer to let many things "go without saying."

Also, I think I know where we got confused regarding abstraction. I was making a point that people have abstract thoughts in their minds. The better one's command of language, the easier it is to find words to convey that abstract idea.

Put differently, think of a painting that you like, visually speaking, as a whole (not for some specific part or reason). Now, suppose I asked you to tell me why you like this painting. As you analyze your abstract appreciation for the painting, you must now find words to explain this appreciation to me.

Many (not all) NT's would respond: "I don't know why I like it - I just do." By contrast, I think most aspies (and likely most art enthusiasts) would search for the best words to describe their abstract appreciation. There is no one word that perfectly explains why you like a painting or why blue is your favorite colour. However, the more words you know, the more tools you have to explain abstract thoughts to others.

That was what I was getting at - not that I prefer abstract to concrete ideas. In fact, I tend to prefer concrete concepts to abstract ones, I think. However, many of the things NT's love to discuss (art, music, media, etc.) are often based in abstract ideas that are difficult to discuss in words. Now, trying to discuss such subjects with someone whose vocabulary is limited can be even more difficult.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Again, my difficulty is more with understanding NT's in oral conversations. However, I did in the past (especially when I was very young) have significant trouble getting NT's to understand me in oral conversation as well. I may have referenced that in a past post, in all fairness, and confused the conversation here. However, even now there are some occasions where there is a gap, and neither I nor the NT knows where we "got off the rails" so to speak. Often, I suspect from Nurse's posts, that it has to do with vocabulary.

I work in a very intellectual field. Most of the NT's I am around and interact with on a daily basis have an immense vocabulary. Some of them have better vocabularies, actually. In deeper thought, I believe the problems are more related to when I am in a different social setting, like at a family event or social function with a different "crowd" where not everyone has post-graduate credentials. I think I sometimes forget that I need to alter my word choice for a different "audience."



I understood everything you wrote, actually. I rarely have difficulty with understanding what NT people write. It's what they don't write and don't say that sometimes confuses me.

I prefer precise language, but I do not require it. I believe precise language better conveys a persons intended message. That is why it is "precise." However, I realize that there is a degree of precision I cannot expect from most NT's, who prefer to let many things "go without saying."

Also, I think I know where we got confused regarding abstraction. I was making a point that people have abstract thoughts in their minds. The better one's command of language, the easier it is to find words to convey that abstract idea.

Put differently, think of a painting that you like, visually speaking, as a whole (not for some specific part or reason). Now, suppose I asked you to tell me why you like this painting. As you analyze your abstract appreciation for the painting, you must now find words to explain this appreciation to me.

Many (not all) NT's would respond: "I don't know why I like it - I just do." By contrast, I think most aspies (and likely most art enthusiasts) would search for the best words to describe their abstract appreciation. There is no one word that perfectly explains why you like a painting or why blue is your favorite colour. However, the more words you know, the more tools you have to explain abstract thoughts to others.

That was what I was getting at - not that I prefer abstract to concrete ideas. In fact, I tend to prefer concrete concepts to abstract ones, I think. However, many of the things NT's love to discuss (art, music, media, etc.) are often based in abstract ideas that are difficult to discuss in words. Now, trying to discuss such subjects with someone whose vocabulary is limited can be even more difficult.

Have you ever wondered if maybe some of the people you work with may be Aspies but just don't know it? Some of the vocabulary used on this site is so far above me that no matter how much you tried to drill it into me I would never learn it in a million years. I could study big words until the cows come home but I will never be able to just roll them off my tongue like Aspies do. Aspies have brains made for large vocabulary. Some if these words I have never heard in my whole life and would never have heard them if I hadn't come to this site. Other NT's don't talk like that - it has to be an Aspie trait.

Another thing, how do you know that all the people you work with really understand what you're saying? Maybe they are trying to act like they do so they aren't embarrassed. I know in the medical field a lot of big words are thrown around for certain illnesses, symptoms and diseases. If I'm talking with a doctor he might bring up a diagnosis I've never heard before, but I will act like I know what he's saying. When he's gone, I'll turn around and say "what the heck is that diagnosis?" Usually it will turn out they don't know either and we'll go look it up. If there's a term that I should know, but I can't remember at the time, I'll act like I know it at the time, but then look it up after the discussion is over. Just a thought. Do your family members use large words like you?

 

[May Black]

Also, I think I know where we got confused regarding abstraction. I was making a point that people have abstract thoughts in their minds. The better one's command of language, the easier it is to find words to convey that abstract idea.

Put differently, think of a painting that you like, visually speaking, as a whole (not for some specific part or reason). Now, suppose I asked you to tell me why you like this painting. As you analyze your abstract appreciation for the painting, you must now find words to explain this appreciation to me.

Many (not all) NT's would respond: "I don't know why I like it - I just do." By contrast, I think most aspies (and likely most art enthusiasts) would search for the best words to describe their abstract appreciation. There is no one word that perfectly explains why you like a painting or why blue is your favorite colour. However, the more words you know, the more tools you have to explain abstract thoughts to others.

That was what I was getting at - not that I prefer abstract to concrete ideas. In fact, I tend to prefer concrete concepts to abstract ones, I think. However, many of the things NT's love to discuss (art, music, media, etc.) are often based in abstract ideas that are difficult to discuss in words. Now, trying to discuss such subjects with someone whose vocabulary is limited can be even more difficult.

This was extremely helpful, thank you. I assume I would have somewhat easier time following you had English been my mother tongue.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

This was extremely helpful, thank you. I assume I would have somewhat easier time following you had English been my mother tongue.

May Black, you're an NT, right? I read that you said you also tested high on the Aspie test?

 

[icesyckel]

Have you ever wondered if maybe some of the people you work with may be Aspies but just don't know it?

Not really - once you realize what asperger's is, it is much easier to spot. I am surrounded by lawyers at work, and by necessity most of them have higher than average intelligence and vocabularies, all regular lawyer jokes aside. Not everyone who is extremely intelligent has AS/ASD; conversely, not everyone who has AS/ASD is extremely intelligent. Most of the lawyers I know are NT. I can think of only one, off the top of my head, who I suspect has an ASD.

Some of the vocabulary used on this site is so far above me that no matter how much you tried to drill it into me I would never learn it in a million years. I could study big words until the cows come home but I will never be able to just roll them off my tongue like Aspies do. Aspies have brains made for large vocabulary. Some if these words I have never heard in my whole life and would never have heard them if I hadn't come to this site. Other NT's don't talk like that - it has to he an Aspie trait.

While I suspect that you are being too hard on yourself and too critical of your abilities, let us suppose this is the case and you really cannot learn vocabulary words. I don't believe that is necessarily typical (or atypical) for the neuro-typical. Some (not all) aspies do have an markedly good memory for vocabulary words. However, many NT's I know would astound you with their vocabularies.

Almost everyone is good at something. It is not going to always be vocabulary, and I do admit that I sometimes have trouble remembering that when communicating with others, whether aspies or NT's. Because of this, I am always willing to rephrase/reword as is necessary to ensure good communication.

Another thing, how do you know that all the people you work with really understand what you're saying? Maybe they are trying to act like they do so they aren't embarrassed.

Most of the time, in order to do legal work, you must be able to understand it. If someone doesn't understand me, then that will usually become apparent quickly as we continue working. Eventually they will have to say, "Look, I am lost here. What are we talking about?" I don't see shame in that. When it gets embarrassing is actually when they try to play it off and, after fifteen minutes, they finally have to fess up. Then you see they were trying to cover it up.

However, keep in mind that all lawyers with whom I work graduated from law school and passed at least one bar exam. You just can't do that without developing a decent vocabulary. It is a job-critical skill. Words like detinue, trover, replevin, pecuniary, and perpetuity are all over bar exams, just to name a few.

I know in the medical field a lot of big words are thrown around for certain illnesses, symptoms and diseases. If I'm talking with a doctor he might bring up a diagnosis I've never heard before, but I will act like I know what he's saying. When he's gone, I'll turn around and say "what the heck is that diagnosis?" Usually it will turn out they don't know either and we'll go look it up. If there's a term that I should know, but I can't remember at the time, I'll act like I know it at the time, but then look it up after the discussion is over.

See, I think you should just ask the doctor. He won't mind explaining. I know I wouldn't. Not everyone can know every word no matter how good they are with vocabulary. He can't expect you to know every word he learned in med school, and there is no shame in asking.

Just a thought. Do your family members use large words like you?

Not really. My father sometimes does, but he's fairly intelligent compared to most.

 

[icesyckel]

This was extremely helpful, thank you. I assume I would have somewhat easier time following you had English been my mother tongue.

Yes, I expect that would make a significant difference.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Not really - once you realize what asperger's is, it is much easier to spot. I am surrounded by lawyers at work, and by necessity most of them have higher than average intelligence and vocabularies, all regular lawyer jokes aside. Not everyone who is extremely intelligent has AS/ASD; conversely, not everyone who has AS/ASD is extremely intelligent. Most of the lawyers I know are NT. I can think of only one, off the top of my head, who I suspect has an ASD.



While I suspect that you are being too hard on yourself and too critical of your abilities, let us suppose this is the case and you really cannot learn vocabulary words. I don't believe that is necessarily typical (or atypical) for the neuro-typical. Some (not all) aspies do have an markedly good memory for vocabulary words. However, many NT's I know would astound you with their vocabularies.

Almost everyone is good at something. It is not going to always be vocabulary, and I do admit that I sometimes have trouble remembering that when communicating with others, whether aspies or NT's. Because of this, I am always willing to rephrase/reword as is necessary to ensure good communication.



Most of the time, in order to do legal work, you must be able to understand it. If someone doesn't understand me, then that will usually become apparent quickly as we continue working. Eventually they will have to say, "Look, I am lost here. What are we talking about?" I don't see shame in that. When it gets embarrassing is actually when they try to play it off and, after fifteen minutes, they finally have to fess up. Then you see they were trying to cover it up.

However, keep in mind that all lawyers with whom I work graduated from law school and passed at least one bar exam. You just can't do that without developing a decent vocabulary. It is a job-critical skill. Words like detinue, trover, replevin, pecuniary, and perpetuity are all over bar exams, just to name a few.



See, I think you should just ask the doctor. He won't mind explaining. I know I wouldn't. Not everyone can know every word no matter how good they are with vocabulary. He can't expect you to know every word he learned in med school, and there is no shame in asking.



Not really. My father sometimes does, but he's fairly intelligent compared to most.

1) "However, keep in mind that all lawyers with whom I work graduated from law school and passed at least one bar exam. You just can't do that without developing a decent vocabulary. It is a job-critical skill. Words like detinue, trover, replevin, pecuniary, and perpetuity are all over bar exams, just to name a few."

So are you saying their large vocabulary mainly surrounds "legal terms"?

2) "See, I think you should just ask the doctor. He won't mind explaining. I know I wouldn't. Not everyone can know every word no matter how good they are with vocabulary. He can't expect you to know every word he learned in med school, and there is no shame in asking."

I would never do that in a million years unless its some disease that's within their specialty then they are always happy to discuss it. See, doctors know a lot about one subject because most are now specialists (cardiologist, pulmonologist, etc) so they are able to know the ins and outs of one area very well. But it gets harder for nurses (especially med surg) and Gen Practitioners that must deal with every body system and have to know several things. But you are still EXPECTED to know it. Kind of like for something to hold up in a court if law - the person "should have known" about something that is considered to be a part of their line of work.

 

[icesyckel]

So are you saying their large vocabulary mainly surrounds "legal terms"?

No, but legal terms are naturally the first that came to mind. They all also had to graduate from undergrad in a variety of fields/disciplines. Also, legal case precedents come up in a variety of factual settings. Some involve disputes between carpenters and others between the government and a business or individual. Some involve crime, and many involve medical terms. For example, every single attorney I personally know would know that hydrocodone and Vicodin are essentially the same thing. Did they learn that in law school? Probably not, but you don't become a practicing attorney if you struggle with vocabulary. Being able to learn and recall new words is just part and parcel of the whole gig.

But you are still EXPECTED to know it. Kind of like for something to hold up in a court if law - the person "should have known" about something that is considered to be a part of their line of work.

So what you are saying is that, as a nurse, you are expected to know every diagnosis - even the ones some doctors might not?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

No, but legal terms are naturally the first that came to mind. They all also had to graduate from undergrad in a variety of fields/disciplines. Also, legal case precedents come up in a variety of factual settings. Some involve disputes between carpenters and others between the government and a business or individual. Some involve crime, and many involve medical terms. For example, every single attorney I personally know would know that hydrocodone and Vicodin are essentially the same thing. Did they learn that in law school? Probably not, but you don't become a practicing attorney if you struggle with vocabulary. Being able to learn and recall new words is just part and parcel of the whole gig.



So what you are saying is that, as a nurse, you are expected to know every diagnosis - even the ones some doctors might not?

What I'm saying is that any specialized field (medicine, law, etc) for one to say they don't know something (unless they are a student) is seen as a "weakness". The medical field is very competitive (I'm sure law is too) and I have NEVER heard a doctor or nurse come right out and say they don't know something (they go look it up on their own.) Everyone is always trying to outdo everyone else with how much they know and how high their degrees are. It would be nice if you could just ask someone about something that you didn't know, but you run the risk of embarrassment. That's what I hate about the medical profession. I asked a "seasoned" nurse this weekend about something in private because I knew that I could trust her, but I've been around to see how nurses will talk about each other and make fun of other nurses for not knowing certain things.

If you couldn't remember something about law that you know you should know, would you ask a colleague?