Masking without being disingenuous?

[Judge]

Any advice on how not to upset people while maintaining some level of sincerity and things which I value?

There isn't any. You sacrifice sincerity to not upset the neurological majority. A social dynamic that does not change. But then if you handle it properly with time and experience, your audience isn't likely to figure it out.

This isn't about manners or a sense of fairness, but only about day-day social self-preservation.

 

[Ban]

There isn't any. You sacrifice sincerity to not upset the neurological majority. A social dynamic that does not change. But then if you handle it properly with time and experience, your audience isn't likely to figure it out.

This isn't about manners or a sense of fairness, but only about day-day social self-preservation.

That's exactly the problem I'm facing, I don't understand how you can maintain your sense of self and just general happiness without being true to yourself though

 

[Judge]

That's exactly the problem I'm facing, I don't understand how you can maintain your sense of self and just general happiness without being true to yourself though

Pretty hard to maintain a sense of self if people are socially demolishing you regularly based only on your autistic traits and behaviors. Self-preservation is an extraordinary instinct, but sometimes it only really comes out under the most dire of circumstances. It doesn't sound like you're quite there yet.

In this regard it may come down to how much punishment you're willing to take before you change how you perceive such things. One of those social equations that lack any "moral balance".

- "Been there, done that; got the t-shirt".

 

[Pats]

I hate small talk and feel like it's such a waste of everyone's time. How do you ever get to know each other by discussing the weather? I've always struggled with communication. I want to know what you think, your values, who you are and the only way for you to know me is by honesty, but I find most NT's don't like honesty, so very few people really know me. But most people just make assumptions and I don't like that. After attending a church for 5 years, who constantly stated the importance of being supportive and encouraging of each other. I tell you, not a single person could tell you anything about my life and visa versa because all I ever got was small talk. How do you know what kind of encouragement we need based on weather? I never got that.

I'm mostly quiet in most situations - which is much easier since my hearing is impaired, because I don't hear 90% of what's being said to begin with. lol It's made some situations more bearable, but some more frustrating. I've been with all my kids and they've been in a long conversation and I've sat and not heard a single word being said and no idea what the conversation is about. That's frustrating because I do want to interact with my kids. But they know when I'm not hearing anything, I think, by the goofy expression on my face, and then they tease me. lol

In a work environment, there's always masking. As a matter-of-fact, in my working years I was not aware of my autism or the masking, etc, and never understood this fear I always had of 'being found out' or 'being caught' and I was very careful of how I acted and what I said. That's a very uncomfortable feeling to live with. Felt like every working moment I was fighting who I was and wanted to do. But I guess it was the only way I survived in the working world.

 

[Ban]

I hate small talk and feel like it's such a waste of everyone's time. How do you ever get to know each other by discussing the weather? I've always struggled with communication. I want to know what you think, your values, who you are and the only way for you to know me is by honesty, but I find most NT's don't like honesty, so very few people really know me. But most people just make assumptions and I don't like that. After attending a church for 5 years, who constantly stated the importance of being supportive and encouraging of each other. I tell you, not a single person could tell you anything about my life and visa versa because all I ever got was small talk. How do you know what kind of encouragement we need based on weather? I never got that.

I'm mostly quiet in most situations - which is much easier since my hearing is impaired, because I don't hear 90% of what's being said to begin with. lol It's made some situations more bearable, but some more frustrating. I've been with all my kids and they've been in a long conversation and I've sat and not heard a single word being said and no idea what the conversation is about. That's frustrating because I do want to interact with my kids. But they know when I'm not hearing anything, I think, by the goofy expression on my face, and then they tease me. lol

In a work environment, there's always masking. As a matter-of-fact, in my working years I was not aware of my autism or the masking, etc, and never understood this fear I always had of 'being found out' or 'being caught' and I was very careful of how I acted and what I said. That's a very uncomfortable feeling to live with. Felt like every working moment I was fighting who I was and wanted to do. But I guess it was the only way I survived in the working world.

Relatable, I don't get small talk either, I think it would help if I understood what the end goal was with it or what people are meant to get out if it but I really can't see it. Yeah I think your right about work, got to be done there, I can almost rationalise masking at work by thinking I'm doing what's required to get through it and get paid but outside of work I find it harder to justify to myself.

 

[Pats]

Relatable, I don't get small talk either, I think it would help if I understood what the end goal was with it or what people are meant to get out if it but I really can't see it. Yeah I think your right about work, got to be done there, I can almost rationalise masking at work by thinking I'm doing what's required to get through it and get paid but outside of work I find it harder to justify to myself.

You do what you gotta do to survive.

I also believe in honesty, and without honesty how do you ever really know the person? There was a family friend who was waiting his court trial on indescent liberties of a minor. He and his wife would offer to babysit my kids, which I did need help at the time. My mom wanted to just make excuses to say no, but I told her if she wants to be friends, it needs to be based on honesty. So I told them that I really appreciated their offer to help and I hoped to remain friends and would also help them with anything they need, but at the time I could not leave my children with them. They were mad and no longer friends with me - he was also guilty of the charge.

 

[Ban]

You do what you gotta do to survive.

I also believe in honesty, and without honesty how do you ever really know the person? There was a family friend who was waiting his court trial on indescent liberties of a minor. He and his wife would offer to babysit my kids, which I did need help at the time. My mom wanted to just make excuses to say no, but I told her if she wants to be friends, it needs to be based on honesty. So I told them that I really appreciated their offer to help and I hoped to remain friends and would also help them with anything they need, but at the time I could not leave my children with them. They were mad and no longer friends with me - he was also guilty of the charge.

Yeah I completely agree, I feel like if your not being honest then your just wasting everyone's time because nobody is getting anything real out of the conversation. Good on you for sticking to your guns, it would have been less awkward to just lie but I think in the long run it feels better to stay in line with your values especially for such important things as that.

 

[Aspychata]

Social interaction is basically insincere whether we chose to view it that way or not. Social standards of civility created this. However, it's become way more lax due to social media removing away so many boundaries.

I don't beat myself up for this.

 

[Gracey]

Yeah I think I really struggle to see what there is other than facts, I think listening is definitely a safe bet to start with as you said. What would you say it is that people are wanting out of the interaction though if they aren't that interested in sharing knowledge and facts. So I get that people like to be listened to but after I've been listening to them what should I be bringing to the conversation?

I think your answers can be found within the type of social situation you find yourself.

For example, Working or studying alongside your peers requires a different interaction to thanking the store checkout clerk and wishing them a good day.

Waiting in line with others to catch the next bus requires a different interaction to attending a comic con with other like minded folk.
And so on.

After listening/ observing
(and processing what's been said)
you may be able to gauge what's required from you and unless you happen to be a therapist with a client paying by the hour and talking directly to you, you can rest assured nothing is broken and doesn't require fixing through exploration and explanation.
- some just want to offload or complain, to be heard (no fixing required)

Many humans have a bone deep need to be sociable born from a time where the best chances of survival and successful reproduction were within a group.

I think for some the necessity has dissipated but the bone deep drive still remains hence the sociable small talk masked as manners, courtesy, politeness, empathy.

The last example I'd like to offer is a situation I recently found myself in and ask for your thoughts on what I could bring to the conversation:

Facts- I'm lone working during the evening in a building divided into three sections open to the general public.
I have responsibilities in only one section but all three sections communicate with each other by way of radio.

A report of an incident came over the radio from a different section to mine that CCTV had seen three older teenage girls had seriously assaulted a younger lone teenage girl and the police were dealing with the situation.

approx 30 mins later I was approached by a clearly distressed older woman pleading for my help as she'd just watched a video posted on FaceBook showing a young girl being assaulted on the property wearing the same coat as her daughter.

She was unable to contact her daughter by phone and non of her daughters friends were answering her calls to them either.
This woman was visibly shaking and informing me she felt sick.

My question to you - What are your thoughts on what I could offer the social conversation?

 

[Hypnalis]

You have certainly described how I am going into conversations so maybe this is the issue but can you elaborate more on what you are supposed to do other than exchange facts? I understand finding a topic that you are both interested in but once you you find something you both want to talk about I feel like I want to compare on contrast opinions which I think its often too much for what the level of conversation warrants so what is it you do instead?

Even this short reply makes assumptions about the purpose of social conversations that I think you should question.

Most social conversations with people you don't know well are, in a sense, about nothing.
If you don't have any interest outside of explaining your opinions, you'll have trouble finding anyone to talk with. And you may be finding that people you talk to terminate the discussion quickly.

I suggest you consider a different objective: try to make the other person a little happier than they would be without interacting with you.

 

[Ban]

I think your answers can be found within the type of social situation you find yourself.

For example, Working or studying alongside your peers requires a different interaction to thanking the store checkout clerk and wishing them a good day.

Waiting in line with others to catch the next bus requires a different interaction to attending a comic con with other like minded folk.
And so on.

After listening/ observing
(and processing what's been said)
you may be able to gauge what's required from you and unless you happen to be a therapist with a client paying by the hour and talking directly to you, you can rest assured nothing is broken and doesn't require fixing through exploration and explanation.
- some just want to offload or complain, to be heard (no fixing required)

Many humans have a bone deep need to be sociable born from a time where the best chances of survival and successful reproduction were within a group.

I think for some the necessity has dissipated but the bone deep drive still remains hence the sociable small talk masked as manners, courtesy, politeness, empathy.

The last example I'd like to offer is a situation I recently found myself in and ask for your thoughts on what I could bring to the conversation:

Facts- I'm lone working during the evening in a building divided into three sections open to the general public.
I have responsibilities in only one section but all three sections communicate with each other by way of radio.

A report of an incident came over the radio from a different section to mine that CCTV had seen three older teenage girls had seriously assaulted a younger lone teenage girl and the police were dealing with the situation.

approx 30 mins later I was approached by a clearly distressed older woman pleading for my help as she'd just watched a video posted on FaceBook showing a young girl being assaulted on the property wearing the same coat as her daughter.

She was unable to contact her daughter by phone and non of her daughters friends were answering her calls to them either.
This woman was visibly shaking and informing me she felt sick.

My question to you - What are your thoughts on what I could offer the social conversation?

Interesting question, my first thoughts were that your were not in a position to really help the situation practically so I guess she just didn't want to be alone while she was dealing with the stress. I'm never too sure what you would actually say but I'm getting the impression she just wanted somebody there. Perhaps just say something which shows you understand how she was feeling?
In answering your question I think I'm seeing what your getting at. That people are just wanting to have people around them cause its nicer than not even if it doesn't achieve something more tangible?

 

[Ban]

Even this short reply makes assumptions about the purpose of social conversations that I think you should question.

Most social conversations with people you don't know well are, in a sense, about nothing.
If you don't have any interest outside of explaining your opinions, you'll have trouble finding anyone to talk with. And you may be finding that people you talk to terminate the discussion quickly.

I suggest you consider a different objective: try to make the other person a little happier than they would be without interacting with you.

Yeah think I'm maybe too end goal focused, so the purpose is really just meant to be the intrinsic enjoyment of conversing?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I think your answers can be found within the type of social situation you find yourself.

For example, Working or studying alongside your peers requires a different interaction to thanking the store checkout clerk and wishing them a good day.

Waiting in line with others to catch the next bus requires a different interaction to attending a comic con with other like minded folk.
And so on.

After listening/ observing
(and processing what's been said)
you may be able to gauge what's required from you and unless you happen to be a therapist with a client paying by the hour and talking directly to you, you can rest assured nothing is broken and doesn't require fixing through exploration and explanation.
- some just want to offload or complain, to be heard (no fixing required)

Many humans have a bone deep need to be sociable born from a time where the best chances of survival and successful reproduction were within a group.

I think for some the necessity has dissipated but the bone deep drive still remains hence the sociable small talk masked as manners, courtesy, politeness, empathy.

The last example I'd like to offer is a situation I recently found myself in and ask for your thoughts on what I could bring to the conversation:

Facts- I'm lone working during the evening in a building divided into three sections open to the general public.
I have responsibilities in only one section but all three sections communicate with each other by way of radio.

A report of an incident came over the radio from a different section to mine that CCTV had seen three older teenage girls had seriously assaulted a younger lone teenage girl and the police were dealing with the situation.

approx 30 mins later I was approached by a clearly distressed older woman pleading for my help as she'd just watched a video posted on FaceBook showing a young girl being assaulted on the property wearing the same coat as her daughter.

She was unable to contact her daughter by phone and non of her daughters friends were answering her calls to them either.
This woman was visibly shaking and informing me she felt sick.

My question to you - What are your thoughts on what I could offer the social conversation?

I guess that I would reassure her to try to find her daughter. If she didn't have a phone, I'd call the police who responded and let her talk with them. If her daughter was found and she didn't have a car, I would be tempted to arrange for transportation if I couldn't take her myself. All the while, I would reassure her that we will do our best to see that she will be with her daughter, being as calm and reassuring as I can.

That will take a lot of energy, but being kind to another takes precedence in that situation.

 

[Hypnalis]

Yeah think I'm maybe too end goal focused, so the purpose is really just meant to be the intrinsic enjoyment of conversing?

I think you're approaching a social matter as though it was an analytical problem.

I could have filled in a lot of details at the end of my previous post, but I believe they would have been a distraction.

You may want something structured and "actionable", but IMO what you need first is to understand why you want to talk with other people (which is the easy part) and why they might want to talk with you.

People on the spectrum are typically years behind NT's, sometimes decades, in learning the basics of why and how to interact with other people. This can't be turned around quickly, but it can be worked on.
It can't be "force-fed" either - the journey is unique to each individual (true for NT's as well, but they start it at 3 or 4 years old).

 

[watersprite]

That's exactly the problem I'm facing, I don't understand how you can maintain your sense of self and just general happiness without being true to yourself though

Since this is &/or seems to be important to you then why not stick with it.
It’s fine to be yourself.
There are lots of people, not that the decision hinges on this, that stick with being themselves.

 

[Ban]

Since this is &/or seems to be important to you then why not stick with it.
It’s fine to be yourself.
There are lots of people, not that the decision hinges on this, that stick with being themselves.

Yeah it is really important to me and as time goes on I do lean more towards wanting to be myself because the less I'm myself the less happy I feel. I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to strike a balance where being myself doesn't result in negative outcomes which will make me even less happy. For example I think on balance not having a job would create more problems for me so I might consider masking at work to be necessary to get on with people enough that it doesn't cause problems.

 

[Gracey]

Yeah it is really important to me and as time goes on I do lean more towards wanting to be myself because the less I'm myself the less happy I feel. I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to strike a balance where being myself doesn't result in negative outcomes which will make me even less happy. For example I think on balance not having a job would create more problems for me so I might consider masking at work to be necessary to get on with people enough that it doesn't cause problems.

just enough masking at work for the sake of avoiding negative outcomes can be a type of focused end goal albeit one you might be uncomfortable with.

A colleague of mine at work complains to me regularly about her own weight.
I'm never going to tell her that she's wasting her money on expensive, trending diet plans because she's eating her own feelings and until she tackles her emotional issues and uses up more energy than she eats she's always going to be obese...
as much as I'd like to correct her and offer the obvious solution,
the 'aftermath' of that action would affect a greater dynamic at work than my spending five or six minutes out of my day listening to her updates.
- she hasn't asked for my advice, she just wants to offload.
I'm not attached to her outcomes and her weight means little to me.

I guess I could call my masking a trade off. Five or six minutes listening as an alternative to what may be misconstrued as 'fat- shaming' a colleague and the repercussions of such.
Even if it is the honest truth.

 

[Ban]

just enough masking at work for the sake of avoiding negative outcomes can be a type of focused end goal albeit one you might be uncomfortable with.

A colleague of mine at work complains to me regularly about her own weight.
I'm never going to tell her that she's wasting her money on expensive, trending diet plans because she's eating her own feelings and until she tackles her emotional issues and uses up more energy than she eats she's always going to be obese...
as much as I'd like to correct her and offer the obvious solution,
the 'aftermath' of that action would affect a greater dynamic at work than my spending five or six minutes out of my day listening to her updates.
- she hasn't asked for my advice, she just wants to offload.
I'm not attached to her outcomes and her weight means little to me.

I guess I could call my masking a trade off. Five or six minutes listening as an alternative to what may be misconstrued as 'fat- shaming' a colleague and the repercussions of such.
Even if it is the honest truth.

I know what you mean with the idea of preventing repercussions, I think its easier to rationalise the justification for masking when you can see a clear cause and effect type situation. Yeah I always struggle to keep my mouth shut in those kind of situations, like you I'd have the temptation to say what I'm thinking the solution would be. And even more I think because I'd disbelieve myself so much if I was to sort of go along with what they were saying I would feel like I was taking the piss. Almost like I was going "Yeahh I've nooo idea how your fad diets couldn't POSSIBLY be working" obviously I wouldn't say it like that but that's how I'd feel about it saying it if I don't think it at all so I'd struggle to say anything which is probably actually fine but I always seem to feel the need to give some sort of proper response.

 

[tree]

 

[Matthias]

Any advice on how not to upset people while maintaining some level of sincerity and things which I value?

I've found two solutions to this problem:
1. Find people who share your values
2. Change your values