Is he lying?

[Profmom]

For years, our son has gotten in trouble at school for using foul language when he's being picked on by kids. Three times this year he's gotten in trouble for doing this with teachers too. Every time he swears up and down that he doesn't do this, and he gets really upset that we don't believe him. When everybody else in the room hears the same thing, though, there's no denying it. He's a bad liar and hardly ever lies to start with (we got lucky there), and he seems genuinely surprised and upset when this happens.

He was just diagnosed with Aspergers not even two months ago, so we're still trying to sort out what's typical for a 12-year-old and what might be related to his Aspergers and ADHD. Could he be saying these things but not be aware of it or remember it? He's never remembered what happens during his tantrums (he is embarrassed when he finds out what he said or did). But swearing at other kids and teachers when he's angry? It's not like he's in a big tantrum. He's just mouthing off when he's angry or frustrated.

We just can't figure out how to give any consequences for his behavior, if at all, if we don't know the cause of it.

Does anybody have experience with this?

Thanks!

 

[Nadador]

I wouldn't class denying an action under questioning as being the same as a proper lie. I never made up lies as a lad, but if I'd done something that would get me in trouble, I would sometimes deny it. This was often more about embarrassment and not wanting to disappoint my parents than anything, though of course there was an element of not wanting to lose privileges as well. At that age, my independence was vital to my sense of self. Anything I couldn't do because of punishment, even temporarily, was highly upsetting.

On the few occasions when I used foul language, I must say, I couldn't really help it. My social deficits put me at a loss for responding cleverly to teasing, and my poor emotional control [as much about my age as my AS] made it hard to take scolding from teachers, especially in front of a roomful of students around whom I already felt quite alien. The embarrassment I felt is what drove my language.

Communication skills fail + emotional control fails = cursing

From my experience of several nephews, denying bad behaviour is typical of most any twelve-years-old boy. By my Aspie tendency to analyse, I've observed four types of lies in my nephews, who are all NT:

Avoiding
Denying
Omitting important details
Making up stories/alternative explanations

If you lad is only doing the first two, I'd say that's fairly normal for his age. The third may come later in adolescence, though I would think an Aspie might have a harder time with this. The last one would be a bit more uncommon for an Aspie, as we often don't do this very well at all. From what I'm learning from my fellows here, many of us refuse to tell stories on principle.

I hope this helps. From this and your other posts, I feel for you and your son in your struggles, and wish you patience and sanity!

 

[Suzanne]

Having read your thread a couple of times, I would venture to say that he truly believes he has not sworn, but since as you say, when he gets into tantrums he does not remember, suggests that both he had his teachers are right here!

You sound a bit like my husband actually, because he asks: which is the aspie bit and which is you being a normal person? I have to explain that being an aspie is normal to me but there are traits that are more aspie than "normal"

I have so much going on in my head, that apparently, half the time, when I think I have said something out loud, my husband tells me I haven't and I could swear I did, which causes tons of issues for us.

Does the school know that he is an aspie? Because they need to know, so that bullying him is stopped.

I know this woman, who's son is an aspie and she relates how he was sitting down and this girl came to sit next to him and because he was being too quiet, she started to prod him! He asked her politely to please stop, but nope, she prodded again and again and again and eventually he said: if you do that again, I shall whack you and she did and he duly whacked her, which shocked the teachers, because he was not known to be violent but what did they do? They told him off for hitting a girl and told her off for annoying him!

When I was a child, I remember being told ( all of us were told) that a girl was coming back to school, but to be very gentle with her, because she has just been in for an operation. Well, we were on a school trip and this very girl started to mock me ( cannot remember what she said) but she was sneering at me and I sensed she was using her handicap, to try and fight with me and so, I turned away, and much to my horror, she lost balance and fell but of course, she chose to say that I PUSHED her and being aspie (but unknown to me), I could not deal with the injustice of it and tried to protest, but because she had been for an operation, they chose to believe her and ordered me to my room and I was not allowed to have anything to eat or drink and I tell you, I was tortured, because never is it in my nature, to be cruel, but I felt such hatred and couldn't cope being in the same room with her, after that! As it happened, another teacher came in and got me talking and listened to me and said she believed my account, which was such a relief, but said that there was nothing she could do ( I believed her) but she got me food and something to drink.

That memory has tortured me for years, because that girl was using her disability against me, and has resulted in my having very little sympathy for those who are visually handicapped. I mean, once a woman in a wheelchair tried to run me down!

We do not swear for the fun of it! I tend to swear when I am so angry that I could kill and so, instead, swear!

Your son is not in the wrong here; it is those bullies!

 

[Ylva]

I am twenty-seven. I still occasionally say or do things on automatic pilot that I have no recollection of doing or saying after the fact.

Responding to bullying seems like something that one would do automatically, because survival instincts and whatnot. I believe him.

 

[Judge]

This makes me ponder the idea of "mini-meltdowns"....or "mini-shutdowns". Where one may black out certain aspects of what happens to them in a short time span due to stress alone.

 

[Kari Suttle]

Every time he swears up and down that he doesn't do this, and he gets really upset that we don't believe him. When everybody else in the room hears the same thing, though, there's no denying it. He's a bad liar and hardly ever lies to start with (we got lucky there), and he seems genuinely surprised and upset when this happens.

Only you know your son. I believe it could be either or. He is either telling the truth and legitimately does not remember what he said, as you have said he does. Or he is just responding to perceived attacks of bullying by mouthing off at them, which I would think of as a somewhat instinctual thing. Not on an aspie level so much as anybody would do it, i think. I was bullied some but i never paid them any mind because to me, they only made themselves look stupid bullying people and nothing they said was true anyways. rising to the occassion would, in my mind, put more eyes on me than i was comfortable with and plus it would also upset me - and was some kid making themselves look stupid worth that? No, to me it wasn't. But that's just my story.

He was just diagnosed with Aspergers not even two months ago, so we're still trying to sort out what's typical for a 12-year-old and what might be related to his Aspergers and ADHD.

Does the school know that he has aspergers? They should know. There was a boy at the highschool i graduated from who was an aspie. I don't know if the teachers were aware of it or not - i know for a fact the bus driver was, though, so i would assume the school knew. But maybe they didn't. Kids bullied him relentlessly. I had him in two classes, history and art. In history the other boys would call him gay and say horribly obscene things about him, and in art his bag was stolen and thrown around the room more than once. But not once did the teacher ever do anything about it - hell, in history class they would all get into trouble, the boy just as much as the bullies because he would always argue back at them! One time we were doing an outdoor activity and i recall that a fight broke out. I remember feeling appalled by it all - the teachers ignoring the severity of it, mostly. As much as yes this boy only made the bullying worse by getting mad and mouthing off or getting into a fight, who could blame him? He'd been through it in elementary, middle school, and back then in highschool. The moral of the story...do your best to understand whatever is going on with your son at school and make damn sure his teachers are doing right by him. You can't stop bullying in the halls - in fact i think a teacher constantly standing up for a kid would make it worse - but his classrooms, at least, need to be a safe zone with a no tolerance policy for bullying in the classroom.

 

[Ylva]

I have a theory that people only ever help others for the connection payoff. People literally only help people they feel connected with, is the more cynical version. Hard to do when your actual handicap is that you can't connect socially, at least not as easily as that.

 

[Maelstrom]

[QUOTE="Profmom, not be aware of it or remember it?[/QUOTE]

Hi I would say yes, there were a couple of occasions when I was pushed over the edge by bad kids and did stuff I couldn't remember. We had a borderline sociopath boy in one of my grade schools who was getting the other kids to stomp on live trapped field mice. Being older and thinking stomping on cute field mice was disgusting, I told them to knock it off, and go release them in the field. So this boy stomps on the cute field mouse right in front of me. They said I pulled down his knit cap over his face and hit him, but I don't remember anything at all, (meltdown blackout?) What may be more important is stopping the (bulling) that is (pushing) your son over the (edge), and perhaps some anger (coping) therapy wouldn't hurt as well.

 

[pushpin]

I am twenty-seven. I still occasionally say or do things on automatic pilot that I have no recollection of doing or saying after the fact.

Responding to bullying seems like something that one would do automatically, because survival instincts and whatnot. I believe him.

Yes, same here. I unfortunately have only a partial recall of my meltdowns. It sucks not knowing what you've done or said because you genuinely can't remember. So yes, op, I agree that it is possible that he's not lying.

 

[epath13]

1) you might want to address the issue with his therapist or during an IEP meeting (if he has an IEP). He just needs to learn how to handle his anger, what he can do when he's angry, learn to notice a moment before he can't control himself anymore. It might take long time but it's worth to learn how to do it.
2) People in his environment need to become role models, and also learn how to deal with anger in a positive way.

 

[Profmom]

Thank you all! It's so hard to tease these things out. I'm glad to hear your own stories. We don't know any other kids or adults with aspergers.

He perceives his teachers as bullies (and we believe that many of them treat him in a bullying way, not by his account because that is not reliable, but by our interactions with them and their actions that we observe), so he is as defensive with them as he is with other kids. We have explained to the school that he does not feel safe or that he is being looked out for, and when he is feeling defensive he will respond with anger, and when he's really feeling threatened he'll become aggressive. He has a 504, and his angel of a case manager at his elementary school last year put in his 504 that he is only to be corrected by teachers in a "private and positive manner", but they do not abide by that. You'd think they'd learn that when they come down on him privately and in a way that is supportive that he responds very well. But most don't, and instead chastise him in front of the whole class. Well, duh! Of course he'll push back! We know this about him.

His principal and case manager (who is the school guidance counselor) know about the aspergers, and we asked the case manager to share this information with his teachers. I have talked with one of the teachers directly because she kept getting on his case about being disorganized.

For discipline, the principal said that he is waiting for an IEP to discipline him in a way that is consistent with what is mandated for special ed kids. He says his hands are tied by the school board rules. No help there.

We started the IEP process over a month ago, but they have 65 business days to complete the process and they get time off for school holidays, so we won't have anything until mid-February. In the meantime, we visited a school for autistic kids yesterday and it was absolutely wonderful but is 50 miles away so we can't make it work, but the school director spent two hours talking with us about our son. It was such a relief to talk about him with an educator who totally "got" him. It was amazing to be in an environment where he is a typical kid. She gave us the name of a special ed advocate who has experience in our area, so I called her to get the ball rolling. We know that the school will not be accommodating and that we don't have the time to become experts like we ought to, so we will hire someone to help us. We know that we will have a fight on our hands. We will push for an aide, as much to help with his academics as other kids as to protect him from teachers and their willful ignorance.

We got the school to get him a day therapist in school, though,since that is a separate process, so he will now have someone help him deal with his anger in school. He doesn't need an IEP for that. But, naturally, they won't even do the assessment until after the holidays. For the rest of the week, then, I will do my usual checking phone messages throughout the day to see if I have a call from the principal about another infraction.

The jury is out on whether or not he lied this last time. We're so exhausted and the punishment would be the same either way (loss of technology time and schoolwork during school hours when he's at home on suspension) that we just let the question go. We're so tired.