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Is having bad social skills offensive.

I don't understand why I often rub people the wrong way. Is it offensive or insulting to someone else for me to have bad social skills?
People can be offended by poor social skills due to the interpretation they have. The meaning they make from it.

Limited eye contact can lead to thinking "they don't respect/care about me" or it can lead to thinking "I'm glad they feel safe enough to not perform neurotypical behavior with me."

Lack of eye contact isn't inherently offensive. But to neurotypical people it breaks a social contract and is supposed to communicate disrespect or disinterest and they don't realize we are not operating from that rule set.
 
Basically this is why l mask, because if l show socially appropriate responses, expression, tone of voice, word usage, l am taken at "face value". And it maybe easier for me because l am female, l have a expressive face.
 
Basically this is why l mask, because if l show social appropriate responses, expression, tone of voice, word usage, l am taken at "face value". And it maybe easier for me because l am female, l have a expressive face.
To me that's a profound point you just made in dealing routinely with an NT world.
 
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I feel the situation is a two way street but it often seems to fall to ND people to make all the allowances for NT people. If people misunderstand me, well then that's my fault. If I misunderstand people, well that's my fault.

It all looks like entitlement to me. I don't expect others to conform to my expectations. But I'm often told that aggressive and antisocial behaviour commited towards me is my own fault.

The irony here is that I understand that people can be jerks, I'm not naive about this. But apparently there's always a rationalisation for others being jerks and an excuse for their behaviour. Apparently I've mistaken their obviously negative behaviour when really they were just being friendly.

If my genuinely friendly gesture is interpreted as negative, well apparently there's no doubt that I really intended to be a jerk. There's no excuses or rationalisations then. I'm usually condescendingly lectured on why it's my own fault that someone did something aggressive or undesirable to me when, until that encounter, I wasn't even aware of their existence.

Here's an example, my living room has a bay window that looks on to a garden, and beyond that is a street. Sometimes I will just be day dreaming and someone will walk past in the street looking right into my home. Then I notice their aggressive indignant stare. Like I'm watching them!

In my last home we had big patio doors that overlooked a grassed area where people would walk past. On one occasion I was lounging on the sofa watch the TV in the corner and I was vaguely aware of two young men in my peripheral vision walking past. I heard aggressive shouting and glanced to my right to see one of these presumably "nice young man" shouting and staring aggressively at me.

I kinda shrugged and looked back to the TV. It sounded like "What the [deleted word] you looking at!?". Then there was a hail of stones and rocks hitting the patio doors!

But if I tell people about that, I get the good old gaslighting. "Well Mildred if you stare at people they might get angry!".

So to sum up, apparently if you  think someone is looking at you, it's perfectly normal to try to break their windows.

If only these narcissistic idiots understood how much of a lack of interest I have in them.
 
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I don't understand why I often rub people the wrong way. Is it offensive or insulting to someone else for me to have bad social skills?
You're certainly not alone with these thoughts.

It depends upon the person you are dealing with, and in which context, but sometimes "yes" it can come off as insulting, offensive, or simply confusing. I think we, too, run into this sort of thing ourselves with other people. There's just enough of a disconnect that either one of us can leave the interaction with thoughts of "that was a bit off-putting, confusing, or just plain awkward".

I have these thoughts several times a day. It's there all the time. I am very self-aware. Someone or I will say something in person or on the phone and it really makes me aware of my deficits. It seems like something "better" should have come out of my mouth, or I was not completely understanding what might have been said, and I could have used some better clarification before responding. I am very aware to the point where it bothers me. I am not a people pleaser, per se, but I sure wish my brain was more "in tuned" with the people I am communicating with so I can articulate things in a way that is clear, concise, and pleasing to the ear. Instead, I often find myself struggling to find the correct words with the correct cadence, and it just seems awkward during everyday social conversations. At some level, I get the sense that other people understand that I am operating at a higher level intellectually, as many people use me as an information resource, and families of my patients love talking with me, BUT like I said, getting my thoughts out in an "elegant" way is next to impossible for me.

I also have this "thing" where, because I am constantly reading, watching documentaries, and generally have an insatiable hunger for knowledge, that at the age of 56, I just know a lot of things on a wide variety of topics. That's all fine and dandy, but people really get put off by that. Socially, there might be a topic of conversation brought up, a group of 2,3,4 people, I am just listening, waiting patiently for a "pause" where I can chime in, and when I do, I bring up some "interesting" information/facts. I don't know how else to communicate other than with facts and things I've learned, BUT as soon as I open my mouth, everyone shuts up, an uncomfortable pause, then they change the subject. It happens quite frequently. At that point, I too, just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of them carry on with their conversation. If I can, I will leave. I think "hate" is a strong word here, but it never feels good. I've never been able to get around this phenomenon.
 
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Absolutely. You can see the ire in their eyes, when you do something unconventional. It's like okay, I have different ways of operating. Then you simmer, like, hey that's one more bad impression I've made. And half the times I didn't even know what I did wrong. I guess being autistic is just naturally offensive to the world.
FACTS!!
 
Misunderstandings do happen, this is a given, but asking someone to completely invalidate themselves and their own emotions to placate another is not okay. Especially when the unintential offender hasn't done anything unreasonable
When the words one chooses to use are extremely hurtful to others, then there is a problem worth examining there. Regardless of the way we understand the world, we can learn to not use a sharp tongue with others.

Apologizing for hurt is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of humanity. Thinking of others’ feeling is a strength and a skill we can learn.
 
Or you accept the consequences of offending people, which is well social isolation for me.
One may never become the life of the party but one can still act to reduce/mitigate negative consequences and enhance positive consequences. Social isolation must be stressful to you, or there's no point to the thread.
 
I'm one of those people, repeatedly mentioned in this thread, whose negativity hovers over them like a dark shadow. I suck the life out of every room and turn off NT's at a prodigious rate.

In my youth, I was almost completely nonverbal. My mother and older brother, both undiagnosed but obviously autistic, never ceased to criticize me for not having friends. (Mom had none.) While never finding my four siblings a job, they repeatedly found me jobs in fast food and washing dishes. After all, I would never amount to anything.

Eighth grade, speech and debate, I outscored my closest competitors by a third. Ninth grade, coach bucked the system to get the NFL (Forensics) to have me compete in the high school division because, well... So, that was the end of that narrative, right? If you can toss other debaters around the podium, you must not be a total idiot.

I had, at last, discovered the key to success in this NT world: logic and reason, skillfully applied. Okay, you guys, stop laughing and get up off the floor. At any rate, I had made my name and I had a claim to fame.

In the army, finished a twenty-week school three weeks early; plus leave, I got five weeks off for Christmas! I had posted my territory. Got home, parents still treated me like I was an idiot. "How do you think I got five weeks off? Maybe, like you, they just didn't want me around?" I learned the social skills to identify and form bonds with individuals; still never spoke in crowds.

After one formation, my Neanderthal sergeant said right out in front of the platoon, "You a DUD, Smith, evvuhbudy NO you a dud." To which I immediately replied, "And you uh Englush majuh, Sahden Barnes. Evvubudy NO you uh Englush majuh." Stunned silence; many of them had never heard me speak. Then, a dozen of his mindless acolytes broke out howling, telling Barnes that the dummy got him good. Well, that taught Sergeant Barnes a lesson, right? No more having everybody think I was stupid, right? Right?

Actually, Barnes was very angry (a totally illogical response.) He caught me sleeping, a jailable offense, kicked the jeebers out of my bed and marched me to the CO's office. On the way, I pointed out to the sergeant that, when he got angry, that set of veins on his forehead stood out like a big, pulsating 'Y'. I tried to walk a bit in front, peek around to see his forehead as we walked. He was acrimonious. Got to the CO's, who told Barnes to stand outside his office. I was Soooo relieved (I said); that man scared me to death. No, he hadn't struck me, but it was a shame that the shiniest pair of boots in the company was all scuffed up from kicking my bed. But, it sure was embarrassing to be marched across the parade ground with all those people looking on as Sergeant Barnes yelled over and over how he was going to throw me in jail this time. Humiliating, and very scary! (You see, it's against the law for an NCO to threaten any enlisted man with imprisonment.) I was told to return to the workplace and Barnes was called into the office for a discussion. I never heard another word about it. Best thing, Sergeant Barnes never bothered me again. Lesson learned; dink the buggers.

In the free world, I worked my way up the technical ladder, unable to fathom some of the foolishness going on around me. At one company, I literally broke a point system designed to motivate technicians. The more difficult tasks were weighted more heavily; the higher your production, the bigger the raise. One impossible board, now a single chip but then a nightmare circuit to troubleshoot, (a discreet phase lock loop, for you techies) I mastered the circuit and racked up huge points. At review time, my supervisor said there was no way he'd give me the raise I'd earned. They eliminated that reward system.

Years later, I was given a few dozen technicians in the defense arena. My employer, a major government contractor, stayed out of my way. I instituted what looked to be costly programs which turned out to produce unparalleled performance improvements. For years, my every contract evaluation was 10. (That means full contract award; unheard of in those circles.) The review system meetings were secret, but I had my spy, who told me that people were angry that I was given 10's. "Even Bo Derek wasn't really a 10." You see, they didn't like me. But the final evaluator would ask the same question: "In what area of the contract has he not exceeded expectations?" (That's right: and now you techs involved know the civilian identity of The Pandector.)

I could tell a dozen more stories along these lines. Is there a point to this self-serving diatribe? You bet your fiddle stick (another techie reference.)

I learned that you don't earn respect by excelling in the things you are paid to do. Respect is not earned according to the criteria laid out in writing. Winning is respected. So much failure and inefficiency is due to people not performing their assigned functions, yet this fact is routinely overlooked because so often the offender is popular among their cohort. I wasn't at all worried about popularity; I had insulated myself from the need with layers of technical excellence, whereas they had insulated themselves from the need for technical excellence with layers of social success.

About a third of my workforce were happy working for me, but everyone on the team performed to expectations or found more appropriate employment. People who had lied on their resume and in interview found reason to update their resume; people who performed were well rewarded.

What I'm saying is... Yes, I have a horrific stage presence. Being judged by NT standards, I often seem the spaced out fool or the overwrought lunatic. I worked very, very, very, very hard to keep my head down and do my assigned tasks. But people aren't comfortable around me. I have a negative approach because a positive approach never earned me anything but an invitation to the rear of the short bus. It was either serve out my miserable life as an unsung bench tech, or stand upright and kick the tail of the one who declares me a fool.

How I envy those on the spectrum who have the sort of social grace to keep a positive attitude while being abused. Me? I earned my right to speak my mind and be heard. If they can't get over the fact that my tone and body language have little to do with my contribution, then that's their problem. If they persist in making it my problem, I feel fully justified in turning the tables. I'm not mean, but my appalling lack of dopamine shouldn't be used to sideline me in life. I know how to speak reasonably; if you can't listen to reason, that's not my fault. If you just don't like my face, well, there's nothing I can do about that. Let's talk results, please, because all that social programming simply isn't installed on my system.
 
Being too direct is definitely a way in which an autistic person can step on someones emotional feed. When I worked on group projects I would always very bluntly tell someone what was wrong with their work, no extra words to make it land better.
That doesn't just isolate you, it hurts the project. And maybe you don't care about the feelings of your coworkers but in that situation, I would.
 
I'm one of those people, repeatedly mentioned in this thread, whose negativity hovers over them like a dark shadow. I suck the life out of every room and turn off NT's at a prodigious rate.

In my youth, I was almost completely nonverbal. My mother and older brother, both undiagnosed but obviously autistic, never ceased to criticize me for not having friends. (Mom had none.) While never finding my four siblings a job, they repeatedly found me jobs in fast food and washing dishes. After all, I would never amount to anything.

Eighth grade, speech and debate, I outscored my closest competitors by a third. Ninth grade, coach bucked the system to get the NFL (Forensics) to have me compete in the high school division because, well... So, that was the end of that narrative, right? If you can toss other debaters around the podium, you must not be a total idiot.

I had, at last, discovered the key to success in this NT world: logic and reason, skillfully applied. Okay, you guys, stop laughing and get up off the floor. At any rate, I had made my name and I had a claim to fame.

In the army, finished a twenty-week school three weeks early; plus leave, I got five weeks off for Christmas! I had posted my territory. Got home, parents still treated me like I was an idiot. "How do you think I got five weeks off? Maybe, like you, they just didn't want me around?" I learned the social skills to identify and form bonds with individuals; still never spoke in crowds.

After one formation, my Neanderthal sergeant said right out in front of the platoon, "You a DUD, Smith, evvuhbudy NO you a dud." To which I immediately replied, "And you uh Englush majuh, Sahden Barnes. Evvubudy NO you uh Englush majuh." Stunned silence; many of them had never heard me speak. Then, a dozen of his mindless acolytes broke out howling, telling Barnes that the dummy got him good. Well, that taught Sergeant Barnes a lesson, right? No more having everybody think I was stupid, right? Right?

Actually, Barnes was very angry (a totally illogical response.) He caught me sleeping, a jailable offense, kicked the jeebers out of my bed and marched me to the CO's office. On the way, I pointed out to the sergeant that, when he got angry, that set of veins on his forehead stood out like a big, pulsating 'Y'. I tried to walk a bit in front, peek around to see his forehead as we walked. He was acrimonious. Got to the CO's, who told Barnes to stand outside his office. I was Soooo relieved (I said); that man scared me to death. No, he hadn't struck me, but it was a shame that the shiniest pair of boots in the company was all scuffed up from kicking my bed. But, it sure was embarrassing to be marched across the parade ground with all those people looking on as Sergeant Barnes yelled over and over how he was going to throw me in jail this time. Humiliating, and very scary! (You see, it's against the law for an NCO to threaten any enlisted man with imprisonment.) I was told to return to the workplace and Barnes was called into the office for a discussion. I never heard another word about it. Best thing, Sergeant Barnes never bothered me again. Lesson learned; dink the buggers.

In the free world, I worked my way up the technical ladder, unable to fathom some of the foolishness going on around me. At one company, I literally broke a point system designed to motivate technicians. The more difficult tasks were weighted more heavily; the higher your production, the bigger the raise. One impossible board, now a single chip but then a nightmare circuit to troubleshoot, (a discreet phase lock loop, for you techies) I mastered the circuit and racked up huge points. At review time, my supervisor said there was no way he'd give me the raise I'd earned. They eliminated that reward system.

Years later, I was given a few dozen technicians in the defense arena. My employer, a major government contractor, stayed out of my way. I instituted what looked to be costly programs which turned out to produce unparalleled performance improvements. For years, my every contract evaluation was 10. (That means full contract award; unheard of in those circles.) The review system meetings were secret, but I had my spy, who told me that people were angry that I was given 10's. "Even Bo Derek wasn't really a 10." You see, they didn't like me. But the final evaluator would ask the same question: "In what area of the contract has he not exceeded expectations?" (That's right: and now you techs involved know the civilian identity of The Pandector.)

I could tell a dozen more stories along these lines. Is there a point to this self-serving diatribe? You bet your fiddle stick (another techie reference.)

I learned that you don't earn respect by excelling in the things you are paid to do. Respect is not earned according to the criteria laid out in writing. Winning is respected. So much failure and inefficiency is due to people not performing their assigned functions, yet this fact is routinely overlooked because so often the offender is popular among their cohort. I wasn't at all worried about popularity; I had insulated myself from the need with layers of technical excellence, whereas they had insulated themselves from the need for technical excellence with layers of social success.

About a third of my workforce were happy working for me, but everyone on the team performed to expectations or found more appropriate employment. People who had lied on their resume and in interview found reason to update their resume; people who performed were well rewarded.

What I'm saying is... Yes, I have a horrific stage presence. Being judged by NT standards, I often seem the spaced out fool or the overwrought lunatic. I worked very, very, very, very hard to keep my head down and do my assigned tasks. But people aren't comfortable around me. I have a negative approach because a positive approach never earned me anything but an invitation to the rear of the short bus. It was either serve out my miserable life as an unsung bench tech, or stand upright and kick the tail of the one who declares me a fool.

How I envy those on the spectrum who have the sort of social grace to keep a positive attitude while being abused. Me? I earned my right to speak my mind and be heard. If they can't get over the fact that my tone and body language have little to do with my contribution, then that's their problem. If they persist in making it my problem, I feel fully justified in turning the tables. I'm not mean, but my appalling lack of dopamine shouldn't be used to sideline me in life. I know how to speak reasonably; if you can't listen to reason, that's not my fault. If you just don't like my face, well, there's nothing I can do about that. Let's talk results, please, because all that social programming simply isn't installed on my system.
Sounds like Elon Musk.

I don't really think you envy those on the spectrum "who have the sort of social grace..." You worded that sentence as an insult using very negative terms. And that is fine as long as you enjoy the life you have.
 
Sounds like Elon Musk.

I don't really think you envy those on the spectrum "who have the sort of social grace..." You worded that sentence as an insult using very negative terms. And that is fine as long as you enjoy the life you have.
You are quite wrong, my friend. Unless I'm clearly being sarcastic, etc., you can expect me to say what I think. Furthermore, I'm being completely honest in reporting that I have no understanding of why you think that sentence is worded as negative, insulting, or that it's in any way less than frank.

When I say I envy someone's ability to do something, I mean that I'm watching someone do something that I can only dream of doing. I have thousands of hours practicing guitar, but I really envy those people who become accomplished in a fraction of that time. I know that other autistic people have problems, but I really envy the ones that still have the ability to produce a usable mask.

Once again, I have offended some unwritten rule of social conduct and haven't a clue as to what it is. Thanks, though, for making my point. I would be grateful if you would explain what it is in the quoted sentences that determines that it was written as negative and insulting. Which is another sincere sentence that could be taken as snarky, right?
 
"I envy those on the spectrum who have the sort of social grace to keep a positive attitude while being abused."

And then you praise yourself for not doing that very thing. Implying your own superiority. You earned it, after all.

Keeping a positive attitude while being abused may be for a necessary thing but never a good thing. What you are saying is very similar to admiring an abused housewife who keeps a positive attitude about it.
 
"I envy those on the spectrum who have the sort of social grace to keep a positive attitude while being abused."

And then you praise yourself for not doing that very thing. Implying your own superiority. You earned it, after all.

Keeping a positive attitude while being abused may be for a necessary thing but never a good thing. What you are saying is very similar to admiring an abused housewife who keeps a positive attitude about it.
Thanks for responding, Au Naturel.

I've failed to make my point. The piece was intended as a justification founded on self defense. So, yes, it is self-serving in tone.

My larger point (I finished up with it) was that that way was laudable (I am envious), but I don't have a face that supports that approach. I don't have the social facility to do that. That opinion of myself may stand in contradiction to those whose experience leads them to believe that the specified behavior is a matter of choice. Given the choice, I would choose that way. My limited social skill set doesn't afford the option. Given the forum, I expect others may have the same experience.

Or an abused husband. Depends on the reason the spouse is keeping a positive attitude. Statistics are what they are, but miracles do happen. Obviously, I am generally against abuse or accepting abuse, as my comments demonstrate.

Thanks again for getting back. You're a person I can learn from.
 
The person who is the most popular always gets away with doing the least work, or just bad work. Supposedly elon musk fired a bunch of people like that when he got hold of twitter.

If you are like you prefer to just grind away at projects, focused on something for hours on end with no regard for any social fluff. Only thing that matters is technical quality.
Sure; being popular is what they concentrate on. I figure it's a type. But I have to say there are always those people who make social hay out of getting things done.

Actually, grinding is what I strenuously avoided. I could spend weeks on a hardware upgrade, then move on to a paperwork reduction scheme then a training cycle. I managed each person, but through three leads with whom I was comfortable. So yeah, I avoided the social fluff.

You learn to make do with what you have.
 
So, I just found this video yesterday. The title suggests the topic is about TikTok videos, but right out of the gate, it is actually about how neurotypicals sense our autism, not really knowing what they are sensing, and tend to get offended by how we are saying things. I know this is a bit late in the thread, here, but thought it was applicable to the conversation.

You can stop the video early, as she goes on to other topics.

 
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but some of what you think is negativity is just how my temperament is.

Yeah, this is part of why I say it's real hard to overcome this.

I had the very same issue. I *started out* just naturally negative (though I didnt realize it as that, since it was "baseline" to me, but everyone else sure spotted it).

And it's quite the hurdle to actually beat something like that when it's an inherent thing. It took me quite awhile to do. Difficult. Part of why I get so overly fired up and argumentative at times, that's that original negative trait sorta kicking in (and that's also why I bow out of arguments so quickly, so that doesnt take over). Used to argue with and just generally yell at people so freaking much, years ago... boy am I glad I got past that.

Anyway, it's one of those things that I dont have advice for. Pointing it out is really all I can do.


Oh, quick totally off-topic thing, I gotta ask you: Did you try to contact me via Steam earlier? Someone did, that person has a nearly identical avatar as the one you're using (but not *exactly* the same), and so I wondered if it was you (I tried to respond but whoever it is logged off before I spotted the chat notification, and it's time for me to go to bed in any case).

Steam chat would be so much easier if I could remember everyone's name easier. My friends list is WAY too long, when the heck did that even happen? No wonder I cant remember who is who.
 
Socially, there might be a topic of conversation brought up, a group of 2,3,4 people, I am just listening, waiting patiently for a "pause" where I can chime in, and when I do, I bring up some "interesting" information/facts. I don't know how else to communicate other than with facts and things I've learned, BUT as soon as I open my mouth, everyone shuts up, an uncomfortable pause, then they change the subject. It happens quite frequently. At that point, I too, just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of them carry on with their conversation. If I can, I will leave. I think "hate" is a strong word here, but it never feels good. I've never been able to get around this phenomenon.

Hello @Neonatal RRT

When in a follower/outcast position (you are not in working time and people talking are not your subordinates) the way you talk must be different. You are supposed to help the ones leading the social group shine. Thats the social role of a follower.

By becoming the protagonist when that is not your social role, you are breaking all the social interaction for everybody else.

This can be better understood by reading the 48 laws of power book, or other books about human social stuff, since its a difficult topic for us:


I also have the same problem you describe when I forget to play the game and behave naturally.
 
Perhaps its possible to do this nicely and not be needlessly rude about it, but ultimately its necessary and needs to happen one way or the other. If something doesn't work or needs improvement I need to able to point it out, otherwise i do not want to work with that person. I would expect other people to do the same with my work.
Many people is pointing you that you should work in your attitude, and you are not only ignoring the advice but getting angry/deffensive about it.

You are human and have a strong need to improve your social interactions but at the same time you are human and reject feedback. Every time you decide to just "accept" things as they are you are deniying yourself the opportunity to work on your defficits.

So you want your problem to be solved but dont want to change anything. You post about a problem but then deny that there is a problem to solve.

You cant solve being autistic, but you sure can work on your attitude towards others and you sure can learn. There are a ton of very good books to learn social skills and attitude.

As an engineer you will understand that any structure or machine usually fails by their weaker part. Its a basic design principle. Our weaker part as autists is our social skills.

Despite your attitude towards me, I will share you two good books that would help you improve your social skills and attitude if you readed them.



The second one is an audio book.

Please note that by making jokes about me and ignoring feedback you are just working against yourself.

I already lead a team of people, have a good job, an incredible family and can mask properly when needed.

Its you who needs help. You should not become your own enemy on top of all the problems you have.
 
Hello @Neonatal RRT

When in a follower/outcast position (you are not in working time and people talking are not your subordinates) the way you talk must be different. You are supposed to help the ones leading the social group shine. Thats the social role of a follower.

By becoming the protagonist when that is not your social role, you are breaking all the social interaction for everybody else.

This can be better understood by reading the 48 laws of power book, or other books about human social stuff, since its a difficult topic for us:


I also have the same problem you describe when I forget to play the game and behave naturally.
Interesting. Thanks.

I am not understanding who is the "leader" during a social interaction, as such, I don't recognize the "follower" either, nor the "protagonist". To me, during a typical social interaction, everyone is on equal footing. That might not be true, as you pointed out, but in my mind, they are just another person "flapping their lips" and are of no concern to me. Keep in mind, I am more of a natural, quiet, "alpha" type personality in the sense that I have never had any sense that anyone, ever, is "above" me in any way, so I've never had that "subordinate" state of mind. This may be one way of how my autism presents, that is, not recognizing hierarchy in social situations.

Professionally, I understand hierarchy and chain-of-command, but even then, to me, these are simply professional roles. The people above me professionally are not "above me" socially, though.

My main frustration is not necessarily with people, but more my inability to sense proper timing, and two, how to relate to people during a conversation. My mind is almost entirely on the spectrum of "things, ideas, and situations" and almost never on a personal level. Whereas, most neurotypicals are more the opposite. I am not interested in what they have to say about people, and they are not interested in what I have to say about things, ideas, and situations. So, for the most part, we are at an impass.

I've dealt with it this long, and frankly, people are not that important to me. ;):D
 
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