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Is having bad social skills offensive.

The Pandector

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
"I envy those on the spectrum who have the sort of social grace to keep a positive attitude while being abused."

And then you praise yourself for not doing that very thing. Implying your own superiority. You earned it, after all.

Keeping a positive attitude while being abused may be for a necessary thing but never a good thing. What you are saying is very similar to admiring an abused housewife who keeps a positive attitude about it.
Thanks for responding, Au Naturel.

I've failed to make my point. The piece was intended as a justification founded on self defense. So, yes, it is self-serving in tone.

My larger point (I finished up with it) was that that way was laudable (I am envious), but I don't have a face that supports that approach. I don't have the social facility to do that. That opinion of myself may stand in contradiction to those whose experience leads them to believe that the specified behavior is a matter of choice. Given the choice, I would choose that way. My limited social skill set doesn't afford the option. Given the forum, I expect others may have the same experience.

Or an abused husband. Depends on the reason the spouse is keeping a positive attitude. Statistics are what they are, but miracles do happen. Obviously, I am generally against abuse or accepting abuse, as my comments demonstrate.

Thanks again for getting back. You're a person I can learn from.
 

The Pandector

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
The person who is the most popular always gets away with doing the least work, or just bad work. Supposedly elon musk fired a bunch of people like that when he got hold of twitter.

If you are like you prefer to just grind away at projects, focused on something for hours on end with no regard for any social fluff. Only thing that matters is technical quality.
Sure; being popular is what they concentrate on. I figure it's a type. But I have to say there are always those people who make social hay out of getting things done.

Actually, grinding is what I strenuously avoided. I could spend weeks on a hardware upgrade, then move on to a paperwork reduction scheme then a training cycle. I managed each person, but through three leads with whom I was comfortable. So yeah, I avoided the social fluff.

You learn to make do with what you have.
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
So, I just found this video yesterday. The title suggests the topic is about TikTok videos, but right out of the gate, it is actually about how neurotypicals sense our autism, not really knowing what they are sensing, and tend to get offended by how we are saying things. I know this is a bit late in the thread, here, but thought it was applicable to the conversation.

You can stop the video early, as she goes on to other topics.

 
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phantom

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Hm, how to say this... well, I'll say what I've told a few others on here. When you bring too much negativity in terms of what you say, or your overall attitude, well... believe me, people notice that. Even if you try to hide it. That dark cloud hangs around you, and people... particularly NTs... can see it like a blazing beacon. It often isnt obvious to the person carrying that beacon. But it's REALLY obvious to others.

That dark cloud of mine was more like a hurricane. But I couldnt see that. Everyone else sure could though.

I'm going to be very blunt about this: the reason I'm telling you this is because I've noticed a lot of that negativity in your posts and overall attitude over time. Not in relation to any specific subject, or any very specific couple of posts... just in general. I see in your posts over time what used to be a part of me. Like I said, I've been there.
I don't fully agree with the premise that i am as negative as you think i am, but some of what you think is negativity is just how my temperament is.
 

phantom

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
So, I just found this video yesterday. The title suggests the topic is about TikTok videos, but right out of the gate, it is actually about how neurotypicals sense our autism, not really knowing what they are sensing, and tend to get offended by how we are saying things. I know this is a bit late in the thread, here, but thought it was applicable to the conversation.

You can stop the video early, as she goes on to other topics.

This isn't new to me. I have posted about this study before. She doesn't actually look autistic, or she is higher functioning than me. She's so much more extroverted and expressive than i am. I know that half her video is about how she's autistic despite not looking like it, but i genuinely can't spot it.
 

Misery

Photo-Negative
V.I.P Member
but some of what you think is negativity is just how my temperament is.

Yeah, this is part of why I say it's real hard to overcome this.

I had the very same issue. I *started out* just naturally negative (though I didnt realize it as that, since it was "baseline" to me, but everyone else sure spotted it).

And it's quite the hurdle to actually beat something like that when it's an inherent thing. It took me quite awhile to do. Difficult. Part of why I get so overly fired up and argumentative at times, that's that original negative trait sorta kicking in (and that's also why I bow out of arguments so quickly, so that doesnt take over). Used to argue with and just generally yell at people so freaking much, years ago... boy am I glad I got past that.

Anyway, it's one of those things that I dont have advice for. Pointing it out is really all I can do.


Oh, quick totally off-topic thing, I gotta ask you: Did you try to contact me via Steam earlier? Someone did, that person has a nearly identical avatar as the one you're using (but not *exactly* the same), and so I wondered if it was you (I tried to respond but whoever it is logged off before I spotted the chat notification, and it's time for me to go to bed in any case).

Steam chat would be so much easier if I could remember everyone's name easier. My friends list is WAY too long, when the heck did that even happen? No wonder I cant remember who is who.
 

Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
Socially, there might be a topic of conversation brought up, a group of 2,3,4 people, I am just listening, waiting patiently for a "pause" where I can chime in, and when I do, I bring up some "interesting" information/facts. I don't know how else to communicate other than with facts and things I've learned, BUT as soon as I open my mouth, everyone shuts up, an uncomfortable pause, then they change the subject. It happens quite frequently. At that point, I too, just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of them carry on with their conversation. If I can, I will leave. I think "hate" is a strong word here, but it never feels good. I've never been able to get around this phenomenon.

Hello @Neonatal RRT

When in a follower/outcast position (you are not in working time and people talking are not your subordinates) the way you talk must be different. You are supposed to help the ones leading the social group shine. Thats the social role of a follower.

By becoming the protagonist when that is not your social role, you are breaking all the social interaction for everybody else.

This can be better understood by reading the 48 laws of power book, or other books about human social stuff, since its a difficult topic for us:


I also have the same problem you describe when I forget to play the game and behave naturally.
 

phantom

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Oh, quick totally off-topic thing, I gotta ask you: Did you try to contact me via Steam earlier? Someone did, that person has a nearly identical avatar as the one you're using (but not *exactly* the same), and so I wondered if it was you (I tried to respond but whoever it is logged off before I spotted the chat notification, and it's time for me to go to bed in any case).

Steam chat would be so much easier if I could remember everyone's name easier. My friends list is WAY too long, when the heck did that even happen? No wonder I cant remember who is who.
That is me.
 

Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
Perhaps its possible to do this nicely and not be needlessly rude about it, but ultimately its necessary and needs to happen one way or the other. If something doesn't work or needs improvement I need to able to point it out, otherwise i do not want to work with that person. I would expect other people to do the same with my work.
Many people is pointing you that you should work in your attitude, and you are not only ignoring the advice but getting angry/deffensive about it.

You are human and have a strong need to improve your social interactions but at the same time you are human and reject feedback. Every time you decide to just "accept" things as they are you are deniying yourself the opportunity to work on your defficits.

So you want your problem to be solved but dont want to change anything. You post about a problem but then deny that there is a problem to solve.

You cant solve being autistic, but you sure can work on your attitude towards others and you sure can learn. There are a ton of very good books to learn social skills and attitude.

As an engineer you will understand that any structure or machine usually fails by their weaker part. Its a basic design principle. Our weaker part as autists is our social skills.

Despite your attitude towards me, I will share you two good books that would help you improve your social skills and attitude if you readed them.



The second one is an audio book.

Please note that by making jokes about me and ignoring feedback you are just working against yourself.

I already lead a team of people, have a good job, an incredible family and can mask properly when needed.

Its you who needs help. You should not become your own enemy on top of all the problems you have.
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Hello @Neonatal RRT

When in a follower/outcast position (you are not in working time and people talking are not your subordinates) the way you talk must be different. You are supposed to help the ones leading the social group shine. Thats the social role of a follower.

By becoming the protagonist when that is not your social role, you are breaking all the social interaction for everybody else.

This can be better understood by reading the 48 laws of power book, or other books about human social stuff, since its a difficult topic for us:


I also have the same problem you describe when I forget to play the game and behave naturally.
Interesting. Thanks.

I am not understanding who is the "leader" during a social interaction, as such, I don't recognize the "follower" either, nor the "protagonist". To me, during a typical social interaction, everyone is on equal footing. That might not be true, as you pointed out, but in my mind, they are just another person "flapping their lips" and are of no concern to me. Keep in mind, I am more of a natural, quiet, "alpha" type personality in the sense that I have never had any sense that anyone, ever, is "above" me in any way, so I've never had that "subordinate" state of mind. This may be one way of how my autism presents, that is, not recognizing hierarchy in social situations.

Professionally, I understand hierarchy and chain-of-command, but even then, to me, these are simply professional roles. The people above me professionally are not "above me" socially, though.

My main frustration is not necessarily with people, but more my inability to sense proper timing, and two, how to relate to people during a conversation. My mind is almost entirely on the spectrum of "things, ideas, and situations" and almost never on a personal level. Whereas, most neurotypicals are more the opposite. I am not interested in what they have to say about people, and they are not interested in what I have to say about things, ideas, and situations. So, for the most part, we are at an impass.

I've dealt with it this long, and frankly, people are not that important to me. ;):D
 
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The Pandector

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
So, I just found this video yesterday. The title suggests the topic is about TikTok videos, but right out of the gate, it is actually about how neurotypicals sense our autism, not really knowing what they are sensing, and tend to get offended by how we are saying things. I know this is a bit late in the thread, here, but thought it was applicable to the conversation.

You can stop the video early, as she goes on to other topics.

I think it’s applicable.

I posted earlier in this thread about my own experience. I’m not good at this social media thing, and have been dealing with some difficult issues since those posts, hearing the responses.

The experience this person outlines is my life story. Except, where people find her ‘weird,’ my experience is that they find me stupid. Like, 150 milliseconds into a conversation I don’t even know has started. You know what they say about first impressions. And a good part of my response is about having to change that first impression before being allowed to play my proper role.

Yes, detractor, I really have earned my right to be allowed to play my rightful role. And, I insist, no one should expect me to prove it over and over, forever, every time some strutting ableist decides that the weird guy isn’t really a legitimate human being.

My natural role is as a corrector. Like a mechanic, I ‘listen’ to human operations and ‘hear’ where something isn’t aligned or calibrated. I look at the larger picture and alter or redesign the process to eliminate the problem. If that sounds self-aggrandizing, so be it: when a top flight employer turns you loose to reimagine a section of their operation, it’s because they have learned that you can do the job. I always tried to do things gently, understanding that I deal in change; NTs don’t deal well with change. (wink)

Along the way, I met scores of people who, I assume consciously, tried in the most obvious way to harness people’s natural inclination to eject the outsider. Oh yes, you can panzy and dance around with these guys for months, trying to convince them of your scheme or win political points to silence them.

Or, I learned, you can show them for the close minded laggards they often are. The difference? You waste your life away trying to win friends and influence people who have already made up their minds against you. Just as the energetic woman in the video points out.

Frankly, I expected some empathy for my plight. I am built for the mission; I literally cannot help seeing the flaws in established systems, and excel in redesign-or-replace. As far as I can tell, I’m not the only autistic person whose limitations also operate as augmentations. When writing that post, I assumed that others hereabouts had experienced the same frustrations.

So, I was thrown into a hard fall when I was openly accused of falsehood, saying my words obviously meant the exact opposite of their LITERAL meaning. And that, from a most unexpected and respected quarter. I’m here, instead of sleeping.

THEN IT OCCURS… that my reader might think I encourage others to adopt my approach, that people will think I’m proud of my attitude. I do not; I am not. Logical extreme: I most sincerely hope I never have to physically harm another; at 70, I have been successful so far. But, if someone attacks me with intent to harm, I will use my 9mm.

Apparently, my ugly self-portrait was taken as pride. Waaay off base. Like the Wild West farmer trying to produce a simple crop, it breaks my heart that I had to shoot a few who decided my legal land deed didn’t matter because I’m weird. It breaks my heart because of who I became, and I am bitter at being forced to defend myself.

As I said earlier, it was intended as the justification of self defense; I didn’t say I liked it. I merely shared the pain of having to live with it.

I didn’t learn until after I retired that I am autistic and that this explains so much about my life. I would have handled things differently. As it was, I strove to deal logically with the facts on the ground. I have regrets, but nothing to apologize for.

And yes, I am proud of what I accomplished in spite of the blizzard.
 

1ForAll

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Sometimes there are situations that logistically make zero sense.

e.g.

Say it's a conversation on a topic of interest to you and a complete stranger comes charging up yelling that they are offended by your syntax. Not because of a bad word or offensive topics, but literally how you speak...your verbal syntax itself.

A normal reaction is to get upset, to be angry because a total stranger is yelling at you for a reason you cannot comprehend. Their reaction to Topic Q makes zero sense and you cannot understand how they came to the conclusions they are upset about. In essence, they are yelling at you for no comprehensible reason. Unfortunately there is nothing you can empathize with because you don't understand the process. You were literally having a neutral conversation completely unrelated to the offended party. You don't even know the offended party.

Yet when you speak up, saying you don't understand and point out the lack of logic in the reaction, others jump on the bandwagon and decide you need to apologize to the stranger for upsetting them. (How is this fair or reasonable?)

You are at fault because a stranger took offense at how you talk and need to apologize for upsetting them and causing them duress. Your feelings and thoughts on the topic are moot and you are labelled as 'hostile' because you refuse to apologize for something you didn't do.

You need to invalidate your own emotions and reactions, (which includes a triggered flight response to aggressive behaviour), so you can validate and assuage those of an angry stranger (apologize). This is what society is telling you, you need to do to atone for speaking as you do.

There is a difference between a social gaffe and truly offensive behaviour. One is accidental, and generally understandable, one is very deliberate. People unfortunately often mistake one for the other.

Misunderstandings do happen, this is a given, but asking someone to completely invalidate themselves and their own emotions to placate another is not okay. Especially when the unintential offender hasn't done anything unreasonable....

I think what you said seems like fair points, if that yelling and the words with it were harsh, totally unreasonable, offensive or triggering and not misinterpreted, and if that stranger was like some average person, from any perceptions there that were correct. But through writing, for instance, it can be trickier as you cannot hear voice loudness and tone, see postures, mannerisms and expressions and sometimes we cannot see or realize more apparent conditions or limitations.

But if like what you mentioned happened during written communications, like if it would occur in this forum for example, then my response could be different, as the stranger factor is not really there, as the sample size could be larger for communications the other may have done with others more, and if any information about themselves or from some analysis showed themselves just to be like all of us, with some abilities but limitations, social or otherwise, and with preoccupations or triggers and so forth.

In a more perfect world where we all are mind readers and are of same or similar abilities and tolerances and don't have the same triggers, things would be so much easier when reacting back to others as perhaps in those situations we do not have to think as much and we can assume more things from what was said or from how it was said.

But, what if like in a writing someone was not yelling but felt just hurt because of some worry or misunderstanding, or perhaps they felt more confused or really just wanted clarification with no ill will but had a hard time expressing that, or if their condition was such it could be harder just to understand certain things. Or maybe it could seem like yelling to the other because of being bothered by some word, action or reaction from the other seen as very not expected, rude or typical, or as our trigger was involved.

Some are triggered by yelling, syntax, critiques, rejection, touch, smells, genders, impatience, and so forth. It depends on the person and situation. Try to keep in mind that in society we will meet or encounter persons that will eventually not understand us, be offended by us, or that will do something we perceive as offensive when we felt we did nothing to justify that. Sometimes we will be not at fault of course, if that other misinterpreted something or just was triggered by something or had comprehension difficulties regarding that.

In my case, I may see or hear some things I am offended by, in person or from another's writing, whether it be something totally unexpected, or a bit offensive if I did not think deeper, inquire more, analyze or put into context more, but something held me back most of the time from responding because of the situation. It was because I either felt harm was not intended or I needed more information there.

Even if I was stung by something just temporarily, that does not mean I was not hurt by it, I agree, and ideally it would be good if the other could say it was not their intent there, and they just misunderstood or take things sometimes literally, but if I did not see a lengthy pattern of that towards I and others, but mostly good, or if I felt any condition, trait of or comprehension could make things harder for them there, this would make me focus on the good more there or lower my expectations there, or I would not be too upset for too long and just see it as likely no harm intended. I would try to give it time to give any reply untill I learned more.

Now, if I act very upset back at someone, it almost never is from one occurrence, even if I felt that other deserved some critique back for any one obvious offense. I am more patient there and I would need to see some pattern to know how to approach things with more assertiveness or to inquire more publicly or privately. If I ever did get very upset at someone in life thus, know it likely was from having sensed many episodes of harm coming from them, not necessarily just against me but others that could be triggered by that generalization or other. Rarely does that happen though as I grew up learning to internalize harmful thoughts under duress..

But to be fair to others who I might not agree with or who I can be offended by, I am my worst critic and I pride myself on trying to be mostly mature acting under stress. Thank that to my high tolerance for stress, but also for my being hard on myself to be my best too for things I could do better. In my case, I will eventually more often blame myself for confrontations thus, even if I thought the other seemed to do things worse or initiate. That is a sign of strong character I feel, and it helps me learn how I can be my best. I have no control usually if others want to take accountability for their actions, so I do not worry about it much.

We all will be judged by how we treat and react to others; there is no avoiding that. But, whether we like it or not, and whether it is fair or not , those perceived to be either more confident, analytical and strong in some ways may be held to a higher standard for our actions and reactions, or we may perceive our reactions as less harmful or feeling more stung than them, but sometimes that may not be true.

So, for anyone stung by others during some interaction, I am sorry about that. Sometimes intent was not there and it just happens. Regardless it is not a good feeling there. I try to learn from all such situations, regardless if it was a stressful one or not. Usually both people involved in some confrontation need their feelings validated,regardless who was the initiator or who seemed a bit harsher or more just. In the ideal world both would apologize,learn from the situation and carry on. But, often each side is afraid to make the first move there, or from thinking they committed no wrong,or they worry a nice such gesture would be not returned,which could fuel the bitterness there. So, I understand that too.
 

AO1501

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
... Limited eye contact can lead to thinking "they don't respect/care about me" or it can lead to thinking "I'm glad they feel safe enough to not perform neurotypical behavior with me."

Lack of eye contact isn't inherently offensive. But to neurotypical people it breaks a social contract and is supposed to communicate disrespect or disinterest and they don't realize we are not operating from that rule set.
Honesty too. NTs seem to use eye contact as a measure of one's probity. Apparently, they think if you make eye contact, it means you're telling the truth, whereas if you don't, you're hiding something.

I've heard people on interview panels say things such as 'He seemed very shifty to me' because a candidate avoided eye contact.
 

Dagan

Member
A few things I can say relating to the original topic.

It took me a long time to realize, but the only time people see me in public much or in pictures, there are several looks on my face that can be thought of as angry. The faces are just me reacting to what I'm thinking in those moments, so it's probably frustrations to many degrees but not any kind of hate towards a person. It's me second guessing, being critical and OCD about the work I'm doing. I don't know that this has ever made anyone take offense to me, but I bet it has made some folks apprehensive.

Also, people don't always think about how cold the written word is. It doesn't matter what intentions or feeling that I have when writing something, the people who read it will let their emotions affect or even fully decide intent instead. That's not being offensive, even if people get offended. That's just being mistaken. I think the only true offense will be if someone starts to rage at me over something written without asking me about it, first. Assuming that I am an awful person because they mistook my intent is the true offense...it's an offense to me.
 

Forest Cat

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Honesty too. NTs seem to use eye contact as a measure of one's probity. Apparently, they think if you make eye contact, it means you're telling the truth, whereas if you don't, you're hiding something.

I've heard people on interview panels say things such as 'He seemed very shifty to me' because a candidate avoided eye contact.

Yeah that's true, ask any police officer, people who avoid eye contact raises suspicion. It sends many signals, shifty, unusual, uninterested, rude, lying, it's ufortunate for people who struggle with eye contact. I have problems with eye contact but even I have noticed it, if I talk to someone and they are looking at everything except me, they just seem uninterested and bored, like they're waiting for me to stop talking so they can leave. The eye contact is an important human thing. They say the eyes are the windows to the soul, maybe that's why.
 

Judge

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Lately I've been thinking about the irony of conversations between two fictitious, but well-known personalities. Most every exchange between Star Trek's Dr. Leonard McCoy, and Commander Spock. That they almost always reflect social dynamics indicative of the clash between neurotypical and neurodiverse persons. Where they usually end badly, and unresolved.

The type of conversation that I had with my own brother. Who didn't call me a "pointed-eared hobgoblin", but rather an "arrogant ass". Simply because I pointed out to him that I disdain semantics arguments unless they are over important issues and involve some fundamental misunderstanding of some kind.

In this instance we both understood the issue in question, regardless of what words were used to explain it. Making it all quite puzzling as to why he chose to become aggressive and hostile over it. Unless of course, my brother's response had nothing to do with the conversation, and everything to do with something he likely did not want to discuss. Leaving me confused to say the least. I asked him about it, and nearly a month later his response has been no response at all.

And to think that at one time I used to think that he had some basic understanding of my autism. -Maybe not.
 
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Au Naturel

Au Naturel
So, I just found this video yesterday. The title suggests the topic is about TikTok videos, but right out of the gate, it is actually about how neurotypicals sense our autism, not really knowing what they are sensing, and tend to get offended by how we are saying things. I know this is a bit late in the thread, here, but thought it was applicable to the conversation.

You can stop the video early, as she goes on to other topics.

This is the story of my life! Learning to overcome this took decades. Still a work in progress.
 

Au Naturel

Au Naturel
This isn't new to me. I have posted about this study before. She doesn't actually look autistic, or she is higher functioning than me. She's so much more extroverted and expressive than i am. I know that half her video is about how she's autistic despite not looking like it, but i genuinely can't spot it.
Women do not always express autism the same way men do. I would never speculate based on a Youtube video unless it was obvious and severe. The autism spectrum ranges from barely detectable to the inability to function without profound support. I take her at her word because of the experiences she described. They rang true to my own experiences.

She doesn't actually look autistic

I assume this is metaphorical and not literal.
 

phantom

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Women do not always express autism the same way men do. I would never speculate based on a Youtube video unless it was obvious and severe. The autism spectrum ranges from barely detectable to the inability to function without profound support. I take her at her word because of the experiences she described. They rang true to my own experiences.



I assume this is metaphorical and not literal.
I mean i have seen people and was able to tell almost immediately that they were autistic, she isn't obvious. There are people, even in asd1, where you can see from miles away they have autism. I am surprised she can mask that well, but its not entirely that she just good at masking. There are plenty of people in the asd1 category that due to neurological difference couldn't ever present themselves like that even if they wanted too.
 
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