Is autism the same as social anxiety disorder?

[Matthias]

When toddlers suffer from symptoms of social anxiety, doctors look for restricted and repetitive behaviors to differentiate between ASD and social anxiety disorder (SAD).

However, restricted and repetitive behaviors also occur in people with autistic traits who aren't autistic. That means anyone born with autistic traits who develops SAD before age 3 can end up meeting the criteria for ASD and be labeled autistic even though they just have autistic traits + SAD. It's even more likely in those who are also depressed since social withdraw and not being interested in people are also symptoms of autism.

What that means is that some people, possibly even the majority of people, diagnosed with ASD may just have autistic traits + social anxiety and/or depression. Treating the root cause of their anxiety and depression with CBT (the most effective treatment for anxiety and depression) to target the maladaptive thinking patterns they developed before age 3 that caused their anxiety and depression may result in them no longer meeting the criteria for ASD and they would be considered by the medical community to have recovered from autism. I propose this is how people recover from ASD. It's how I went from meeting the criteria for ASD to no longer meeting it. While some would call that a misdiagnosis, I'm not aware of any way to differentiate between autistic traits + anxiety and/or depression before age 3 from however you want to define true ASD which means this situation could apply to anyone diagnosed with ASD.

 

[Major Tom]

I don't need to recover from ASD thank you.

 

[Fino]

What benefit is there to no longer meeting the DSM criteria? You seem to think of it as some sort of achievement or destination. Is it in order to drop the label? If so, then your problem is with the label. What problem do you have with the label? Is there shame?

 

[AngelaS267]

I don't really like the SAD label because it's typically a symptom of something else... I don't feel it's ever really standing on it's own. To answer the question, it is not the same as autism. Many people who have autism will suffer with SAD down the line because we are so misunderstood in our communication, so it creates a lack of confidence, which leads social anxiety for fear of messing up even more. However, autistic kids aren't afraid to talk to people... That's the distinction, and I can attest. I thought I just had SAD but it didn't quit fit because I am not afraid to talk to people at all. I can order food fine. I can talk to people at my own pace and feel fine. But I prefer not to speak a lot. I could not speak for most of the day and I would prefer it because that just feels right to me. I prefer to express myself in other ways than just words. I developed social anxiety because I was made fun of a lot for being quirky, misunderstanding people, all that good stuff. If those social miscommunications didn't exist between neurotypical people and neuro-diverse people, then the distinction might be more clear. It's very easy for a doctor to miss this in quiet kids because kids can't always express WHY they're quiet. If people keep telling you that you're shy and you're scared to speak then you just believe that.

I notice that you want a lot of the people here to validate your idea that you can somehow no longer be autistic anymore by working hard enough to no longer meet the criteria. You can learn all the skills in the world to combat the social difficulties and misunderstandings that come with being autistic, but at the end of the day, you cannot change the fact that you are autistic as far as we know it right now. Honestly you shouldn't be so focused on trying to not be autistic if you really are. There isn't anything inherently wrong with being autistic, it's just that we live in a world that wasn't built for these kinds of differences. I don't think you're going to convince people here that they can stop meeting the criteria and not call themselves autistic anymore. People come here a lot of the time when they've masked their behavior for so long and it's mentally draining. To many people, they would never think I was autistic. I could run with that and call it a success, and say I'm no longer autistic. But internally, I know that I have to continue masking in order to be considered neurotypical. It's nice to have a place like this where you can relate to others about what your needs are as an autistic person. It's a place to feel like we are our own normal. We have good people, bad people, talkative, quiet, successful, struggling people on this site. And we all feel the need to come here and feel understood because inside we know what we really are and we want to feel validated about it. Anyways... Autism and SAD aren't the same thing at all. I join Fino in asking, what is the benefit of not meeting the criteria for you?

 

[Matthias]

What benefit is there to no longer meeting the DSM criteria? You seem to think of it as some sort of achievement or destination. Is it in order to drop the label? If so, then your problem is with the label. What problem do you have with the label? Is there shame?

I don't have any problem with the label. I just use it because I'm scientifically minded and that's how it's defined by the medical community. I've stated previously that I don't like how it's labeled.

My point is simple, symptoms in ASD can have 2 causes. For example,
social withdraw - can be due to autistic traits, depression, or a combination of both
social awkwardness - can be due to autistic traits, anxiety, or a combination of both

I thought, like I read often on this forum, that things like social awkwardness is 100% genetic. It's not. Overcoming anxiety can reduce, but not eliminate it. People here act like depression and anxiety are part of who they are and they wouldn't want to get rid of their depression or anxiety because it would make them less autistic.

 

[Matthias]

I don't really like the SAD label because it's typically a symptom of something else... I don't feel it's ever really standing on it's own. To answer the question, it is not the same as autism. Many people who have autism will suffer with SAD down the line because we are so misunderstood in our communication, so it creates a lack of confidence, which leads social anxiety for fear of messing up even more. However, autistic kids aren't afraid to talk to people... That's the distinction, and I can attest. I thought I just had SAD but it didn't quit fit because I am not afraid to talk to people at all. I can order food fine. I can talk to people at my own pace and feel fine. But I prefer not to speak a lot. I could not speak for most of the day and I would prefer it because that just feels right to me. I prefer to express myself in other ways than just words. I developed social anxiety because I was made fun of a lot for being quirky, misunderstanding people, all that good stuff. If those social miscommunications didn't exist between neurotypical people and neuro-diverse people, then the distinction might be more clear. It's very easy for a doctor to miss this in quiet kids because kids can't always express WHY they're quiet. If people keep telling you that you're shy and you're scared to speak then you just believe that.

I'm saying that despite being made fun of you don't have to have anxiety. I didn't realize it until last year that "NTs" make fun of each other all the time and hardly any of them are bothered by it.

I notice that you want a lot of the people here to validate your idea that you can somehow no longer be autistic anymore by working hard enough to no longer meet the criteria.

I actually don't care whether anyone here believes me. I don't need to validate what I know is true. Plenty of people in real life can attest to it. What I want people to know is that depression, anxiety, stress, and trouble understanding people are secondary to autistic traits and can be overcome because they're not genetic.

You can learn all the skills in the world to combat the social difficulties and misunderstandings that come with being autistic, but at the end of the day, you cannot change the fact that you are autistic as far as we know it right now. Honestly you shouldn't be so focused on trying to not be autistic if you really are. There isn't anything inherently wrong with being autistic, it's just that we live in a world that wasn't built for these kinds of differences. I don't think you're going to convince people here that they can stop meeting the criteria and not call themselves autistic anymore. People come here a lot of the time when they've masked their behavior for so long and it's mentally draining. To many people, they would never think I was autistic. I could run with that and call it a success, and say I'm no longer autistic. But internally, I know that I have to continue masking in order to be considered neurotypical. It's nice to have a place like this where you can relate to others about what your needs are as an autistic person. It's a place to feel like we are our own normal. We have good people, bad people, talkative, quiet, successful, struggling people on this site. And we all feel the need to come here and feel understood because inside we know what we really are and we want to feel validated about it. Anyways... Autism and SAD aren't the same thing at all. I join Fino in asking, what is the benefit of not meeting the criteria for you?

I didn't try. I unexpectedly overcame my autism in one day while researching CBT for depression.

I used to think this:
Born with autism -> Depression & anxiety

I now know it was like this:
Born with autistic traits -> Depression & anxiety -> autism

I understand you may be happy being depressed, having anxiety, or other negative emotions but suicide is a major cause of death in autistic people so I think depression is worth treating. Also, many people hate being stressed out in social situations and not being able to fit in and understand people. I think they deserve to know their problems can be overcome. Despite what a few people say on this forum, I think the majority of autistic people wish they could understand people better and not be depressed or have anxiety.

 

[Major Tom]

I'm saying that despite being made fun of you don't have to have anxiety. I didn't realize it until last year that "NTs" make fun of each other all the time and hardly any of them are bothered by it.



I actually don't care whether anyone here believes me. I don't need to validate what I know is true. Plenty of people in real life can attest to it. What I want people to know is that depression, anxiety, stress, and trouble understanding people are secondary to autistic traits and can be overcome because they're not genetic.



I didn't try. I unexpectedly overcame my autism in one day while researching CBT for depression.

I used to think this:
Born with autism -> Depression & anxiety

I now know it was like this:
Born with autistic traits -> Depression & anxiety -> autism

I understand you may be happy being depressed, having anxiety, or other negative emotions but suicide is a major cause of death in autistic people so I think depression is worth treating. Also, many people hate being stressed out in social situations and not being able to fit in and understand people. I think they deserve to know their problems can be overcome. Despite what a few people say on this forum, I think the majority of autistic people wish they could understand people better and not be depressed or have anxiety.

You are lumping comorbid conditions in with autism when actually they are separate conditions. You probably are higher functioning (if you are on the spectrum at all) and never had experience with someone severely autistic. I can tell you from personal experience it's two wholly separate worlds.

 

[AngelaS267]

Nobody here is saying that you can't overcome anxiety, depression, stress, or trouble. Didn't say that not one time in my post. I have been working actively to fix my depression and anxiety for myself and its working wonderfully. Those can absolutely be fixed, there's scientific proof that those can be regulated and does not have to be apart of the experience of being autistic. But every time you post, it seems as though you're alluding to the fact that you can fix autism, and you can't. If we're on the same page with that, then great. If not, well you have a right to say whatever you want.

 

[Matthias]

You are lumping comorbid conditions in with autism when actually they are separate conditions. You probably are higher functioning (if you are on the spectrum at all) and never had experience with someone severely autistic. I can tell you from personal experience it's two wholly separate worlds.

I used to be ASD2 (mid-functioning). I read Bettelheim's book, The Empty Fortress, where he treated severely autistic minors (ASD3) in the 1950s and 1960s and could relate to much of what he wrote. My experience was very similar to them when they were about half way in coming out of autism. I don't think anyone with AS (ASD1) would be able to relate to any of it.

Most of the symptoms of the severely autistic minors he treated were due to a very deep depression and severe anxiety (to the point of being paralyzed with fear). He referred to severe autism as an empty fortress because they devoted so much energy masking their symptoms to avoid being rejected for being different that they weren't able to be themselves. Some kids were so fearful of being judged and rejected that they didn't speak a single word for several years. After they recovered, they explained how they repressed their emotions because they were overwhelming and full of fear that something bad would happen if they dared to be themselves. Some of them went on to live normal lives. If those kids were diagnosed today, many of them would have suffered terribly with emotional problems and been mute and dependent on others their entire life.

 

[Major Tom]

I used to be ASD2 (mid-functioning). I read Bettelheim's book, The Empty Fortress, where he treated severely autistic minors (ASD3) in the 1950s and 1960s and could relate to much of what he wrote. My experience was very similar to them when they were about half way in coming out of autism. I don't think anyone with AS (ASD1) would be able to relate to any of it.

Most of the symptoms of the severely autistic minors he treated were due to a very deep depression and severe anxiety (to the point of being paralyzed with fear). He referred to severe autism as an empty fortress because they devoted so much energy masking their symptoms to avoid being rejected for being different that they weren't able to be themselves. Some kids were so fearful of being judged and rejected that they didn't speak a single word for several years. After they recovered, they explained how they repressed their emotions because they were overwhelming and full of fear that something bad would happen if they dared to be themselves. Some of them went on to live normal lives. If those kids were diagnosed today, many of them would have suffered terribly with emotional problems and been mute and dependent on others their entire life.

This you read in a book.. I am going by real life experience. I am high functioning with comorbid conditions, and my son is severely autistic also with comorbid conditions. Autism and the comorbid conditions are perhaps related but also you can have one without the other and so on. Sure some comorbid conditions can mimic autism, but with age you can differentiate.

 

[Sarah S]

I used to be ASD2 (mid-functioning).

Actually ASD 2 is MODERATE and NOT Mild. Mild is ASD1 (formely known as Asberger, Or HFA without any Co morbid diagnosis )

 

[Matthias]

This you read in a book.. I am going by real life experience.

No. I learned about the book after I recovered from autism. My real life experienced matched what was in the book both while they were autistic and after they came out of autism. I experienced some very unusual symptoms after I recovered that I couldn't find mentioned anywhere online. I couldn't believe when I read his book that he described those same symptoms after the minors he worked with recovered.

I am high functioning with comorbid conditions, and my son is severely autistic also with comorbid conditions. Autism and the comorbid conditions are perhaps related but also you can have one without the other and so on. Sure some comorbid conditions can mimic autism, but with age you can differentiate.

I realize that but it's also possible that depression, anxiety, and autism (the symptoms beyond autistic traits) have the same cause which I believe to be maladaptive thinking patterns (sometimes called schemas or core beliefs) formed before age 3 that result from stress and repressed emotions. Also, if autism is comorbid with ID, recovery means same social functioning as someone with the same IQ.

Here's the thing. It doesn't matter if anyone believes me because what I did is the same as what scientific studies show is the most effective treatment for depression and anxiety (CBT). All I did was adapt it for autism to make it more effective. Even if I'm wrong about it being possible to recover from autism, I can still help autistic people overcome depression and anxiety which is good enough for me.

 

[Matthias]

Actually ASD 2 is MODERATE and NOT Mild. Mild is ASD1 (formely known as Asberger, Or HFA without any Co morbid diagnosis )

That's correct. I had moderate autism, not mild autism although I was ASD1 last year (I was ASD2 when I was a child).

 

[Major Tom]

Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

 

[Sarah S]

That's correct. I had moderate autism, not mild autism although I was ASD1 last year (I was ASD2 when I was a child).

I should add that ASD 2 Moderate often with co morbid diagnosis -3 (formely known as Severe ) also includes in most cases co morbid diagnosis so on that one i understand what youre saying.

BUT as been stated numerus times in here there IS NO cure for Autism period. However there is help avieble for many (incl Anxiety /Depression etc... ) of the other co morbid diagnosis and its also a fact that some actually do grow out of there ASD traits with age (in the ASD 1 level / HFA / PDD NOS that is) also known before as Mild /Asberger or HFA.

ALL this said there are also those earlier diagnosed with different NP diagnosis incl Autism that asked for a second evaluation and it has been discovered they were wrongfully diagnosed and said diagnose have been removed or changed.

 

[Aspychata]

I'm saying that despite being made fun of you don't have to have anxiety. I didn't realize it until last year that "NTs" make fun of each other all the time and hardly any of them are bothered by it.



I actually don't care whether anyone here believes me. I don't need to validate what I know is true. Plenty of people in real life can attest to it. What I want people to know is that depression, anxiety, stress, and trouble understanding people are secondary to autistic traits and can be overcome because they're not genetic.



I didn't try. I unexpectedly overcame my autism in one day while researching CBT for depression.

I used to think this:
Born with autism -> Depression & anxiety

I now know it was like this:
Born with autistic traits -> Depression & anxiety -> autism

I understand you may be happy being depressed, having anxiety, or other negative emotions but suicide is a major cause of death in autistic people so I think depression is worth treating. Also, many people hate being stressed out in social situations and not being able to fit in and understand people. I think they deserve to know their problems can be overcome. Despite what a few people say on this forum, I think the majority of autistic people wish they could understand people better and not be depressed or have anxiety.

I don't have much of a desire to be socially active. And l feel l am wired differently. And l feel no shame for who l am nor do l feel that l need to be cured. Yes, l totally agree that l totally disagree with your statements. I think l strongly resent the fact that you classify all of us by one statement- that we wish to understand other people better. You seem to be missing the bigger picture of we wish to understand ourself better, not some random stranger. You can't take your textbook example and magically cure us and your simplistic thought patterns are frustrating for us who truly see we are different. I have dealt with this my entire life. Just saying to me, hey it's just anxiety and depression and boom, your problem is solved. If only.......

I think the fact that you keep coming back with this l am cured blah blah blah makes me thinks you are on the spectrum. A more normal response is - this happened, l read this, now this is and therefore l surmise. You are like very intent to just keep ramming the same thing over and over (characteristic trait of autisim). This worked for me, therefore it has to work for you ,(black and white thinking). And maybe l don't honestly guilt trip myself for not being social. It's freeing to not feel like you have to have a social circle at all times.

 

[Progster]

People here act like depression and anxiety are part of who they are and they wouldn't want to get rid of their depression or anxiety because it would make them less autistic.

Not sure about that. I think that most people would love to be rid of their depression and anxiety. I certainly would. Though I feel my anxiety in some respects is caused more by a not wanting to expend energy on maintaining a social mask, or 'performing' for people, than a fear of people. Interaction with people always feels forced to me, is always an effort, always drains me of energy. It's trying to be something that's against my nature. Getting rid of the anxiety might make it easier to mask or manage the autism, but the autism would still be there because my brain is just not wired for social interaction. It's like telling a cat that it isn't really a cat, but a dog, and only thinks it's a cat, thus denying the cat its catness.

 

[Aspychata]

Not sure about that. I think that most people would love to be rid of their depression and anxiety. I certainly would. Though I feel my anxiety in some respects is caused more by a not wanting to expend energy on maintaining a social mask, or 'performing' for people, than a fear of people. Interaction with people always feels forced to me, is always an effort, always drains me of energy. It's trying to be something that's against my nature. Getting rid of the anxiety might make it easier to mask or manage the autism, but the autism would still be there because my brain is just not wired for social interaction. It's like telling a cat that it isn't really a cat, but a dog, and only thinks it's a cat, thus denying the cat its catness.

True, social interaction does feel forced. And l do need time to recuperate. And that in itself frustrates me. The time needed afterwards. That is depressing to me. Lol. But social distancing has been a beautiful blessing. I just want to wear a button that says celebrate social distancing for those on the spectrum. Like a national social distancing holiday - one day every month.

To me, being social is like taking out the garabage. It's something we are required to do. But l don't need to recuperate after garbage detail. I do now calendar in recuperate time daily. This really helps me. And l am pretty sure l am in active denial status again about daily social interactions.l am pretending to be a NT again.

 

[menander]

I used to be ASD2 (mid-functioning). I read Bettelheim's book, The Empty Fortress, where he treated severely autistic minors (ASD3) in the 1950s and 1960s and could relate to much of what he wrote. My experience was very similar to them when they were about half way in coming out of autism. I don't think anyone with AS (ASD1) would be able to relate to any of it.

Most of the symptoms of the severely autistic minors he treated were due to a very deep depression and severe anxiety (to the point of being paralyzed with fear). He referred to severe autism as an empty fortress because they devoted so much energy masking their symptoms to avoid being rejected for being different that they weren't able to be themselves. Some kids were so fearful of being judged and rejected that they didn't speak a single word for several years. After they recovered, they explained how they repressed their emotions because they were overwhelming and full of fear that something bad would happen if they dared to be themselves. Some of them went on to live normal lives. If those kids were diagnosed today, many of them would have suffered terribly with emotional problems and been mute and dependent on others their entire life.

There are many people who have a condition or think they have one and their own experience jades their view of others' experiences. When I was young, I had a friend who was an addict. In that world I saw this scenario ALL the time.

We met one man who had recovered from heroin addiction and instead of living gratefully, he would lambaste others as weak or not informed or not taking the right vitamins, etc etc. It was so strange. It was as if he felt everyone around him was just so stupid and uninformed, as if they had not already tried the things that worked for him. There was a total disconnect from and disregard for the other addicts' experiences!

I saw that one of the worst perils of an addict was one who had "recovered." They never let up and destroyed any peace a current addict had. Non elicited help is not helpful but it sure is perceived to be so by the person giving it.

We met others who had kicked the habit and never mentioned it again. They had survivor's guilt in a way.

So it seems whenever anyone recovers they seem to feel some kind of obligation, but it's misguided IMO.

Others have to find their own way in any experience and when it comes to medical things, if there is not a definitive medical treatment, one person's way is just one person's way.

 

[Aspychata]

I find with this partucular po- it's the exact same storyline and nothing to take into account the severity of autisim. It's disturbing that this po has no experience with raising such children. My daughter had plenty of sunshine, excellent food, and lots of chances for socialization. She was perfectly content entertaining herself. Her ability to fixate and really concentrate at a extremely young age was amazing to me. Because she had such a rich imagination, other kids followed her around like heat guided seeking missiles. But later, social issues did emerge. I just can't follow the argument presented to me.